Houston Astros - Cheaters

[bking556]

For anyone who subscribes to The Athletic, I highly recommend reading today's article from Andy McCullough featuring Justin Turner.

"Whether Altuve was getting pitches or not, he still benefited from it. From the guys in front of him being on base, from guys behind driving him in, winning games. The whole team benefited."

[FairwaysToHeaven]

anyone reporting on the effects outside of the astros on opposing players or teams....

 

i've seen where one player is considering lawsuit as he was brought up from AAA to face the astros in houston, gave up several runs, and was sent back down to minors. certain divisional pitchers who routinely faced the astros would have a strong argument that this not only helped astros but also hurt their career

[fillwelix]

Someone actually has brought a lawsuit, and it's almost more of a symbolic suit than anything else. He's calling for Houston to donate the winnings and profits of the title to children's charities in the LA area, which is nice.

[charli]

Who hits the game winner rounds the bases and the first thing he says is don’t take off my jersey. Then runs into the dugout while everyone is celebrating to get another shirt on. Zero chance anyone acts that way unless hiding something

[RobotDoctor]

The stance Commissioner Manfred is taking is a joke. There needs to be a real investigation and anyone, from players to coaches to executives, need to be suspended for a significant time and/or banished from MLB. Start with Carlos Beltran since he appears to have orchestrated this scheme. I would say anything less than a lifetime ban is not serving justice. There is a difference in sign stealing using eyes and decoding the signs and with using high tech aids to watch video and steal signs in this manner. To me, it makes what Pete Rose did less than what it was. If the Astros players, coaches and executives get a pass on this then why not reinstate Pete Rose. This whole scandal stinks to high Heaven.

[xxio]

On the first page Shilgy agrees there should be a "do nothing option". Implying it was not a big deal.

 

You have to look at the poster's point of view as a whole.

[fillwelix]

We've now seen at least 3 excuses for not wanting to take his shirt off. "I'm shy", "My wife would be mad", and then Correa said he had a "really bad unfinished tattoo"

So now we know that his tattoo is a one word tattoo of his daughter's name, Melanie.

So you're either embarrassed for having a tattoo of your daughter's name, or you're lying about why you wanted to keep your shirt on. Why would he be embarrassed about the tattoo? Why would Correa say it was unfinished if it was such a simple tattoo? Could he really not get a one word tattoo finished in one sitting? Why would he even get a tattoo in the middle of the ALCS and risk discomfort/infection when he can just wait 2 weeks for the season to be over?

On another note, the entire game Altuve only had his jersey on. In the top of the 9th inning, he put on an undershirt because they were up 2 and they wouldn't have to go to bat. After DJ tied the game, Altuve came up to bat without an undershirt. Why would you put on an undershirt when you thought the game was over and why would you take it off again when you have to bat?

[Shilgy]

For all of those voting for “vacate series-disband team”..... is this the only team you are doing this to? How far back do you wish to go? The Astros won three seasons ago.

Do we disband all other cheaters teams? Based on many comments it seems so as we have had a team thinking they should get the trophy after losing a Series they believe they “might” have won straight up. And players saying the MVP award should be given to another player because...and a guy that never really made the majors suing because of....and a pitcher wanting a bigger contract because....

 

Some have mentioned the number of trash can bangs a hitter got as evidence of complicity. But if, as most news about this have mentioned, the bangs meant an off speed pitch was coming that means little to nothing. If a hitter received all fastballs he would have no bangs. And a hitter that teams tried to get out with off speed stuff would have many.

 

Steroids/high...other sign stealing(yes the illegal variety)....greenies(aka amphetamines) .....pine tar for gripping ball(pitchers)...pine tar to far up bat(hitters) .....spitballs......scuffed balls(many versions of this ploy to assist pitching)....betting.....St Louis Cardinals hacked the Astros database....cheating in International signing rules....

 

We won’t have any teams remaining......

 

All of the above is why I say that what has been done is enough and move on. I have not been condoning what was done. Put systems in place to prevent it from happening again and carry on.

 

ps just google baseball scandals and/or baseball cheating. You will see why I say there would be no teams remaining.

[bubbagump]

For somebody who claims they aren't playing what happens if, you sure like to place a lot of assumptions and hypotheticals filling in blanks lol.

[bubbagump]

Preach.

[fillwelix]

So what's your opinion on the impact the cheating had, then? You say the Dodgers and Yankees didn't play well enough to win, but you have to discount the fact that they cheated in the regular season and the postseason. Do you seriously think the cheating had no impact on the game?

[bking556]

What team is "thinking they should get the trophy after losing a Series they believe they “might” have won straight up"? Not a single Dodgers player wants that trophy if that's who you are referring to. They have simply stated they were cheated out of the trophy, because the Astros cheated.

Nick Markakis had the most harsh words said today. "I feel like every single guy over there needs a beating. It's wrong. They're messing with people's careers. "

It's become rather comical to me seeing people attempt to justify the league's punishment while numerous marquee players, including the best player in the game (Mike Trout), are speaking out to how bad it is.

[bubbagump]

I don’t have one because there is no way to know if it helped, how much, how little or whatever. It was 3 years ago, and what’s done is done. Neither condoning it or saying it’s ok, just not as triggered over it seeing it was a while ago and was exposed.

[fillwelix]

Except every major player who's spoken out about this believes it continued throughout last season as well, so this isn't ancient history

[bubbagump]

You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. I get it you want people to be outraged, sorry.

Id say that’s logical to assume that, but again it’s an assumption. If it’s proven MLB will try and punish again I’m sure.

[Shilgy]

My thinking is that "maybe" the Astros would not have even won their division and the other team would have beaten the Yankees and Dodgers. In other words... Who knows?

Saw Aaron Judge spoke out today.... My first thought was...Whitey Ford....A-Rod....Pettitte......Clemens..... No Yankee should comment on this. Their house is as dirty as it comes.

 

Edited to add....guys, I’m really not going to use this forum for arguing about baseball. I have no taste for revisiting this thread.

[xxio]

It happened 3 years ago but was recently just investigated and punished. So people's reactions are also just recent for something that happened 3 years ago. Even though the cheating is old. The wounds are "fresh".

 

Just like the steroids, the investigations were later. The reactions were also late. People were also asking for asterisks to be put beside Sosa, Bond's, McGuire, Canseco, etc. After the fact.

[MtlJeff]

I'm not a fan of cheating, and the penalty could have been harsher. But I also think we are a very victim driven culture right now and everyone just piles it on when it comes to stuff like this

If I tweeted that I lost a promotion at work due to the Astros cheating at baseball people would support it. I could tweet that the ending to game of thrones was bad because the Astros were cheating at baseball.

They cheated and maybe the penalty wasn't severe enough, but I always end up thinking geez just drop it already before I hear everyone in baseball's personal story about how this screwed them. Reminds me of the saints and the missed pass interference, by the time they started taking the NFL to court I was glad they lost

[fillwelix]

Every single team had steroid users, you can't blanket disregard Yankee players' comments because of that. Not to mention an Astros pitcher was just suspended 162 games for PED use Monday. If you want to talk steroid use, at least make it a fair conversation.

[MtlJeff]

Are we sure other teams arent cheating? I remember guys getting caught doping early on in cycling, and then 5-10yrs later you found out everyone was doing it, and the people we said should've been the real winners were likely doing the same stuff

What are the chances the Astros are the only team doing stuff like this?

Maybe they are , maybe not. We always tend to do the "lone gunman " thing too if one team is doing it probably others are, just in different variations. I dont want to strip the Astros of a title and then 5 years from now find out 10 teams were doing stuff like this from some tell all book

 

[fillwelix]

We aren't sure other teams aren't cheating, but the Red Sox are currently being investigated for it. Just based on the player backlash, if I were a player who was using a cheating scheme like this I wouldn't speak out as harshly as guys like Bellinger, Bryant, etc. have. If I spoke out that harshly and was then found to be cheating, I'd be the biggest hypocrite. The reason we didn't see this kind of outcry from players during the steroid era is because everyone was using.

[MtlJeff]

Maybe, or maybe we dont remember it as much because it was 20yrs ago. I don't remember players reaction as much when it came to steroids. I do remember when Canseco said 75% of the league were using he was pretty throughly mocked by writers and players. Players seemed pretty angry at the notion hed suggest that, and then it turned out they were all using lol

[fillwelix]

That's what I mean, anybody who talked about it was immediately outed from the group by players and writers. With this scandal, all the players speaking out aren't being called crazy or getting backlash from the media, because they're so transparently right.

[bubbagump]

MLB had dudes like Raffy Palmeiro in front of court rooms lying that he wasn't roiding and going on about how they were legit and pure, and hard work yada yada. I dont think a worry over hypocrisy really seems to come into play much anymore. Condemning the team that got caught is exactly what others would say, even if they were doing it as well. Wouldn't really expect them to come out and say "oh we do this too" .....especially when they are the ones drumming the victim beat.

Not saying others are or aren't, but the worry over looking like a hypocrite sounds pretty weak to me.

[kmbean]

The Astros on the road this year......lol.

Patrick Reed is an Astros fan.......lol.

[bking556]

I held back bringing up Reed in this thread, but now that you did...lol
Patrick Reed won the Masters in 2018 by 1 stroke over Rickie.
If someone provided video proof today that earlier in the tournament Reed pulled the same BS he did at the Hero, would folks such as @Shilgy have the whats done is done, move on mentality, or would he be in favor of adding the two strokes to Reed's score and vacating the title? How would people feel if Jay Monahan gave Reed immunity which resulted in no punishment to Reed? If Monahan did do that, and Tiger called Monahan weak, would people it be called "sour grapes", @bubbagump ?
I'm sure there could be an argument because cheating in golf may provide a more clear outcome than batters knowing what pitch is coming, but I'm just playing devils advocate with this hypothetical situation.
Ultimately, at this point, I would say what's done is definitely done, but I'm proud of all of the players who spoke up and called Manfred and Houston on their BS.

[fillwelix]

Great point. I think at this point, because the players are already given immunity, the only way to effectively punish them is to vacate the title. Not give it to LA, just remove them from the record books. Don't let them fly their banners. Setting the precedent that as long as you get away with it, you can keep your world series is a really dangerous road to go down.

Vacating the title doesn't directly punish players, it punishes the organization as a whole which we've seen is rotten from top to bottom.

[puttnforthe8]

Jose Altuve in the future talking about it all:

[PaulCar65]

The Yankees need to be investigated. They Had Carlos Beltran as a special advisor last year. He seems to be the one who orchestrated the scheme.

[bladehunter]

Lol. No different than golf. We are just now finding out because of closeup camera work and social media that baseball. Like golf has never been a mostly honorable endeavor. Maybe 50/50. I’m an idealist at heart. So I get the want for it to be black hat vs white hat. But the truth is , the champions have almost always been grey.