Houston Astros - Cheaters

[bking556]

Jim Crane, wow. Unbelievable. He should be forced to sell the team. Absolutely no remorse whatsoever.

[fillwelix]

"I don't think I should be held accountable"

 

[Jc0]

Pros have already said steroids and I agree with them. Knowing what speed is coming takes so much of the guess work out of hitting a pitch. Steroids don't help your timing, they just help you if you get the bat on the ball.

[fillwelix]

Exactly. Steroids turn warning track outs into home runs. Knowing what pitch is coming gives you a batting title and MVP.

[RobotDoctor]

You cannot vacate the WS title. The Cincinnati Reds did not vacate their WS title in 1919 due to the Black Sox scandal. I do believe some indefinite suspensions and bans from MLB should happen. Carlos Beltran should be banned from Baseball for good. So should A.J. Hitch since he was the field manager. That's the tip of the iceberg. Any players involved should either have a long term suspension and hefty fine or a permanent ban. This is for the sake of integrity of the game. To me, this makes Pete Rose and his betting seem minuscule. That is unless Rose bet on the Reds to lose. Then that's a different story than if he always bet for the Reds to win. The sign stealing scandal is worse than the steroid scandal in my opinion.

[scomac2002]

I think that's the part that pisses me off the most. The arrogance is more than I can stomach and it carries right down the line with the players. I would cheer if opponents threw at their heads!

[FairwaysToHeaven]

the only way to get mlb attention is if fans stop watching ... i would think this has to hurt excitement of upcoming season. the punishments were pathetic and that alone gives impression mlb just wants to ignore the problem. i hope this becomes a larger issue this year rather than a forgotten issue.

[bking556]

I think it is definitely going to become a larger issue when MLB finalizes their investigation on Boston

[bscinstnct]

This was good

Astros cheating scandal: MLB players, fans react to 'embarrassing' press conference

[RobNY22]

They had weeks and weeks to prepare for this day and this is the best they can come up with? Crane calling out the Yankees for their comments and saying that “it didn’t impact the game...... I never said it didn’t impact the game...”

Putting Bregman and Altuve out there to read a scripted apology that I hope they wrote themselves because if your PR team wrote those then you have another problem on your hands. I disliked Bregman before, but after today he looks like even more of a punk.

Correa was the only one who seemed genuine.

I cannot wait until they come to Yankee Stadium. It’s going to be fun.

[fillwelix]

As a Yankee fan the whole thing would be laughable if it wasn't so disrespectful. Unfortunately they don't come to Yankee Stadium until September but I'm sure it will still be a zoo

[scomac2002]

I'll bet it will be raining beer cans from the bleachers!

[bking556]

Bellinger the real MVP (pun fully intended). Calling them out on their shit! Bellinger: Altuve stole 2017 AL MVP from Judge"I thought the apologies were whatever," Bellinger said, referencing the Astros' public apologies Thursday from their spring training site. "I thought [owner] Jim Crane's was weak. I thought [commissioner Rob] Manfred's punishment was weak, giving [the players] immunity. Those guys were cheating for three years. I think what people don't realize is [Jose] Altuve stole an MVP from [Aaron] Judge in '17. Everyone knows they stole the ring from us. But it's over."

[deadsolid...shank]

Ever since this came out I’ve wondered if it was part of the reason Gerritt Cole seemed so after distant and removed from all the celebration. Couldn’t get out of there fast enough. Maybe he really couldn’t stomach it. And maybe it had nothing to do with it.

[fillwelix]

Yeah in the interview after game 7 he said "I no longer work for this organization"

[stryper]

I remember watching that at the time and thinking “what a (fill in the blank),” but now I’m thinking maybe he wasn’t that and maybe he had more integrity than I thought. I would love to know if the cheating thing was the real reason for that comment...but we’ll likely never know.

Baseball is in a bad place right now.

[deadsolid...shank]

If it is true, but like Stryper says, we’ll never know, then my opinion of Cole just skyrocketed.

[Shilgy]

Some of the numbers make you wonder....Altuve was better off not knowing what was coming it seems. He batted .381 on the road and .311 at home in 2017. Bellinger whines but the Dodgers hit .205 in the ‘17 World Series. Wasn't going to take much run production to beat that.

 

Next the Pete Rose issue....he claims he only bet on the Reds to win....of course he also claimed for years to have never bet on baseball. Even if he did only bet on them to win it does not exonerate him completely. Think about it....rather than doing what is best for the team day in and day out you leave a stud pitcher in too long to get the win on days you bet. Or guys only get days off on days you do not. So even saying you only bet on your team to win does not get you off the hook.

 

Another post mentions it but this may be deeper than we know so far-or may ever know. Some of the comments I have read from ex players smacks of the same hypocrisy they used on the steroids issue. They want all of those “cheaters” banned for life but they all used greenies, aka amphetamines in the 60’s and 70’s and now act holier than thou.

[bking556]

I actually agree with you about Belli being wrong on Altuve. I viewed the data showing Altuve received the least amount of trash can bangs of all Houston players well before Belli made his comments. Maybe Belli didn't see that data.

Him bring wrong about Altuve, however, does not mean he was wrong about Houston cheating the Dodgers out of the WS title (notice I said cheating the Dodgers, not cheating Bellinger). Just because Bellinger didn't perform well in the series doesn't mean his team didn't deserve to win. The Dodgers did not get a fair chance to win the WS due to Houston's cheating, so Houston cheated them.

Bellinger's poor performance in that WS also does not mean he is wrong about Crane, Bregman and Altuve's BS apologies. Those were all so insincere it only made matters worse. Have you notice how much more outspoken players have been since that "apology" was made?

[fillwelix]

In the WSJ article outlining the Astro's "codebreaker" operation, they used the scheme on the road. They would have people in the video room with a live feed of the game, and would input signs into a program which would evaluate and decode the signs. Once it was broken, they'd relay the signs to the players, who would be able to relay them when they had a runner on second.

Again very different than getting a runner on base, him looking in and trying to decode the signs in real time, and transmit to the hitter again in real time.

Bottom line, the road stats are tainted as well.

[Shilgy]

Here is my question....and don’t get me wrong as I am not defending the Astros but much of this reads as sour grapes to me. Supposedly this went on for a few years. And yet players came and went from the team with not a peep until Fiers. If this went on for so long why did no one else speak up? When in doubt why did these teams not change up signs? That goes along with the Trevor Bauer comments about the pitchers using some substance for more spin on their pitches. Pitchers came and went from Houston and not a peep. Hall of Fame pitchers have been accused of that for decades.

In the 2017 World Series he Dodgers as a team hit .205 . Bellinger hit .143. What does the sign stealing have to do with lack of production? Puig .148 Turner .160. Heck the Astros as a team only hit .230 in that series.

 

Baseball players have tried to get an an edge one way or another forever. The Astros got caught. Other teams may join them.

[fillwelix]

So apparently the A's (and other teams) filed complaints to MLB about the Astros specifically, but MLB didn't address it other than issuing internal memo's essentially saying "use of electronics is prohibited". Owners and management of other teams wouldn't want any of this to go public if it could be handled internally, because we see now how bad the public backlash is.

The Nationals received tons of calls and people reaching out specifically about the Astros and Minute Maid Park as soon as they clinched a WS berth.

To your point, I think you're right and other teams will join in. Because the comissioner made it clear that if you want to cheat to win a world series, it will cost $5 Million, a couple draft picks, and maybe a couple staff members. But the revenue they got for the World Series and the trophy are yours to keep.

[xxio]

So players not ratting out, the Dodgers playing bad, etc........makes it ok to do what the Astros did?

[bubbagump]

Sigh, this is always such a low hanging response. He never said it was OK, just provided another side of the situation.

I agree that a lot of this, especially from the Dodgers is sour grapes. They sh*t the bed in the series, and didn't even deserve to win straight up, so just complaining about the Astros now, doesn't take away from the fact that just about their entire roster came up short, yet again as they tend to do. I also would agree that if you could have an inside look at MLB, that other teams are doing this, just not to the extent of technology here. Ive played baseball my entire life, and picking up signs and having basic verbal indicators from a coach spanned from from like early teen AAU ball to college. The Astros took it too far, and they got caught so they have to take the L on the chin and the fallout, however lets also not be so naive to think that these kinds of edges are not being pursued in just about every pro sport. Doesn't make it right, wrong, or indifferent but the hypocrisy and outrage at the moment is pretty good.

[xxio]

Actually thats my point, that those things don't make it right.....however it is still a wrong. Each time things like these are let go, the standard (of anything) erodes a little more until they become acceptable.

Saying it had no impact or the Dodgers didn't play well enough to win is just that lowering of that standard.

 

Who can say the Dodgers didn't hit well because they were always behind and consequently lost.......noone as well.

 

 

[bubbagump]

You keep saying that but, nobody has said it was right, or ok. The Dodgers didn't play well enough on their own to win, we saw that play out as they lost, on the flip side the Nationals did, and they won. Signal-gate aside, that has nothing to do with eroding standards, it was just the outcome of the games that were played. The Astros had an undeniable edge with this, however it wasn't a guaranteed win, so teams still were capable of beating them.

Also not sure what "letting it go" has to do with anything, it was caught and punished. I think there becomes a non realistic view on competition and pro sports from the average couch surfing joe, that its pure, fair and standards beyond reproach. These are the best in the world at what they do, and if there is an edge to be had black, white, grey and sometimes illegal......we've seen many times over history that it happens, which also means that there are likely plenty of instances that are happening that fan is not aware of.

[fillwelix]

The Dodgers might have played well enough to win. We will never know, because the Astros cheated.

Game 1 Dodgers win 3-1

Game 2 Houston wins 7-6. If they aren't cheating, do they get 7 runs? Maybe they only get 5? The Dodgers' 6 runs is enough to win IMO

Game 3 Houston wins 5-3. Sure, 3 runs isn't a lot so let's give that to the Astros

Game 4 Dodgers win 6-2

Game 5 Astros win 13-12. Obviously 12 runs is enough to win and if the Astros aren't cheating, Dodgers could have easily won this game .

That enough is enough for the Dodgers to win the world series. Game 2 and game 5, both one-run games.

I'm not saying they should have retroactively given the Dodgers the title, because we'll never know, but that's the point. We'll never know what would have happened in a fair fight. The Dodgers (and the Yankees for that matter) took the cheating Astros to 7 games, I'd argue both of those teams were better.

[bubbagump]

Playing what happens if only takes you so far. Trying to give a point value to the Astros cheating or the opposition is impossible and at the end of the day pointless because the results were the results. The Nationals did enough to win, and won...the Yankees, and Dodgers didnt.

[fillwelix]

I'm not trying to play what-if, the point is we will never know. The Astros cheated their way throughout the season which gave them home field advantage in the ALCS and the World Series. They cheated in the postseason against the Red Sox, Yankees, and then the Dodgers. The Yankees and Dodgers took them to seven games, which included multiple games the Astros won by 1 run. Playing well enough to take a cheating team to a seventh, winner-take-all game is enough to give them the benefit of the doubt that they COULD HAVE won if the entire season/series was played fairly.

[bking556]

Is winning easier or more difficult when your opponent is cheating to gain an unfair advantage?