I think drivers are finally “topped out”.

[bpink21901]

I think if you are hitting the sweet spot distance increase will be minimal and related to the effect the driver design has on spin. I am still gaming a G10 w/ Prolaunch Red S. I have tested others over the years but didn't get any big improvement in distance and I could not work the flight of the ball nearly as well which is just as important for me. The G10's are getting harder to find in good shape so I have been browsing G410's the last couple months.

[Mikey5e]

It's always distance that is promoted, touted in new drivers, but not so much accuracy. Distance is sort of the sexy aspect of driving the ball, but what most golfers should concern themselves with is keeping the ball in play. I'm not a real long driver, but I rarely find myself in trouble in terms of distance in on second shots to par 4s or third shots to par 5s. I really don't need any more distance, I need accuracy more than anyting. I think all this distance bragging from manufacturers is a bunch of BS.

[18thbunker]

FlashFace, Twistface among others are now the new marketing battleground. I do believe these really work, but are these really new ? (serious question).

[seve1972]

There is NO way a balata will go as far as a solid core ball of Today.....never! Your statement of utilizing science in my opinion is spot on.....(radar....shaft metrics..ect). The ball/maxed COR is still the smoking gun....

[cgasucks]

Seve1972 is righthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6B6U0DflaY

[NRJyzr]

The difference is a lot less stark than you'd think. There were ball tests done when wound balls were being sold along side the solid core balls. And, there's the PGA Tour driving distance stat. Both show 4-5 yards, depending on the ball. In the ball test data, the Tour Balata actually had a nearly identical smash to the Pro V1. Could be stat noise . (FWIW, a plus hdcp was conducting the test)

That ball test is flawed. The wound ball in question is 20 years old, or more, and will have lost considerable distance due to age; Father Time's effect on the windings.

There's no doubt the solid core balls are longer than wound, but if you can equalize for spin with the equipment, the difference is not as much as often touted. I mean, Davis Love III used to bomb over the 275 nets at ANGC's driving range with Tour Balatas and his persimmon driver.

[NYDave]

I go to the range every Sunday during the off season, if the temps are below 35 deg I'll take a old driver with me to hit out of fear of cracking the face of my F9, My RBZ Stage 2, and Cobra Biocell are both just as long as the driver I'm gaming.... for me that shaft seems to make the biggest difference...

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Sure, I drive 540 yards now!

Kidding, I’m seeing pretty much the same thing you are, my M2 seem pretty much as long as any club out there? Maybe M6/SIM reduces spin so as to get more roll?

[chisag]

"There's no doubt the solid core balls are longer than wound, but if you can equalize for spin with the equipment, the difference is not as much as often touted. I mean, Davis Love III used to bomb over the 275 nets at ANGC's driving range with Tour Balatas and his persimmon driver."

 

... Ed, while impossible it would be very interesting to see what DLIII could have done with a ProV1 maximized for perfect spin off his Cleveland Classic persimmon back then. I have to imagine given his youth, arc and swing speed that he would see a substantial increase in yardage. I just remember Billy Andrade gained 20 yards when he switched to a ProV1 from a wound ball and won in Las Vegas if I remember correctly.

[NRJyzr]

 

A few years ago, I'd looked at the change in driving distance from 1999 to 2002, in an attempt to see what sort of change there was in the switch from wound to solid core. I'd heard the stories about Mickelson, his claims of 30 yards, wanted to see the actual numbers. Was it really that much?

I went with 99-02 to try get as many late adopters as possible, without getting too much of the later changes, like launch monitors, larger drivers, etc. As it happens, I just posted the player by player comparison at the other site which shall not be named, in the thread about "fixing the distance problem."

The overall number was 5.5 yards, for those players who competed in both seasons. Which is imperfect, due to not having info on who changed and who didn't, etc.

Just looked up Andrade, he gained 10 yards. Amusingly to me, Furyk and O'Meara, who were already using the Strata and stayed with it, gained 6 and 8 yards, respectively. DL3 was +4.6.

Now, all that is far from perfect, repeating myself. But it's about as good as we've got, such as I've seen, anyway.

[BIG STU]

What???? Is this the end of the world as we know it? For once I am agreeing with you and even gave you a like---- You're Welcome

[bamagolf]

I agree with the original poster. There is slim to none advantage to be gained on new driver purchases every year now. I really wanted to find something with the G410 LST over the G400 LST but it just wasn’t there.

[bamagolf]

I think we’ve been there with putters even longer than drivers. I did spring for a new Special Select NP2 a few weeks ago because it’s the nearest to a milled Ping Anser 2 that I’ve seen yet.

[BIG STU]

Oh absolutely 110% correct. I still play vintage golf some with balata and persimmon. In fact balata goes better off persimmon than it does the modern metal drivers

[chisag]

 

... Numbers shmumbers. Keep in mind that if players hit the ball much farther using a solid ball (and they do ;) that means instead of the drivers they used with a balata ball, they are now using woods, hybrids and Driving Irons. Rory and DJ hit their DI's over 300 yards on occasion and that certainly was not happening with most players using a persimmon driver, let alone a 2 iron with a balata ball.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I still have a couple dozen Balata Tour 100 balls and a few loose ones lying around in my garage. Accidentally, played a round with those a couple summers ago, and the only difference was the blistering after a few longer approach shots. And I was a lot grumpier. These were pretty old balls too. My wife rearranged that shelf and put those old balls into my in-play area, and I failed to look at what boxes I put into my bag before my first coffee in the dark.

My old fitter used to hit 280 yards with this old stuff back in the day, and he wasn’t particularly long for a proAM. He still hits 260 aged 75 with newer stuff.

Seriously, too much arguing over equipment for the pros.

Even a single digit won’t see that huge a difference, the only people affected are those struggling to play with modern equipment. This more forgiving technology with drives 1.5”off center still puts the ball forward, mainly because there’s still a face to hit that far away with this new stuff.

Anyone arguing that it will affect the pros the way it affects 20 handicaps and above doesn’t remember the equipment in the past. It wasn’t that bad.

[NRJyzr]

LOL

I'd love to see Shotlink data, might answer a lot of questions. Doubt that's going to happen.

Would love to see a modern test with newly manufactured wound balls and the latest solid core stuff. Doubt that's going to happen, either.

[Lip1337]

I think if you get the perfect head shaft combination a 10 year old driver could be the one! But if the combination of a new head and shaft is right for you .... you Never know

 

sometimes a Equipment change helps... for me, maybe because I can tell myself it was not me (what‘s obviously A lie)

 

over the time your swing might change which requires a better fitting head shaft combo

 

but I am with you distance wise I think we were there years ago. Forgiveness wise maybe a few years later.

[king_biscuit]

 

Not just to your post, but to some of the posts above suggesting that equipment has not been a major cause of the difference in distances in the modern era of golf,

equipment is a huge reason for distance gains on tour and here is a bit of evidence:

 

If you go over to the pga tour website and look at driving distance stats (they were kept all the back to 1980), you can see a clear pattern of golfers like Davis Love, John Daly, Phil, etc., getting longer and longer AS THEY GOT OLDER, and especially during the early to mid 2000s.

51 year old Davis Love average clubbed speed at 112.65, and his fastest speed 116.95 https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02401.y2015.html

Here is noted teacher Carl Welty measuring 28 year old Love's speed at 125 mph

Also, Love would have been using a heavier, shorter (persimmon) driver in 1992 so there is every reason to believe that his 1992 clubhead speed would have been markedly faster if he had his longer lighter 2015 driver in 1992.

Davis Love's average driving distance in 1991 -- 273 yards. https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.101.y1991.html

Davis Love's average driving distance in 2010 -- 298 yards. https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.101.y2010.html

So Love got 25 yards longer on average while losing significant clubbed speed! How did that happen? I'm going to suggest it was improved equipment (ball/driver).

 

1991 Daly at 288.9 -- 2010 John Daly at 305.7

 

1994 Vijay 274, 2005 Vijay 301

 

1993 Phil 269, 2005 Phil 300

 

1985 Couples 277, 2005 Couples 296

 

1986 Davis Love (driving leader that year) 285, 2005 Davis Love 305

 

How do you think that happened? Some of these examples are 20 years apart and you have to assume the guys were getting weaker and less limber and yet were getting markedly longer.

 

And for those saying the modern players are stronger with more "trained" swings, there is no way self-taught, pencil armed Bubba Watson or 5'2 Ricky Fowler were stronger than Greg Norman or Tom Weiskoph, and they certainly didn't have better swings

 

That said, I agree that buying a 2020 driver, for example, is probably not going to make much difference over your 2015 driver assuming the 2015 model fits you. Btw, your old club fitter would have been the longest guy on tour from 1980 through 1985...

 

 

 

 

 

[Lip1337]

they gained most of that distance because of the invention of the launch monitor.

and i don’t know how the course conditions were in the 80s-90s on Tour. Length of fairway grass, hardness

biggest influence of the equipment should be the new balls and shafts (since idk 2000-2010)

lot of variables

[king_biscuit]

 

Lots of variable, but the biggest two were the longer lighter drivers that better optimized not only clubhead speed (due to longer and lighter) but also spin and launch, and the modern multilayer urethane tour balls which allows players to hit it as hard as they want knowing mishits will still be on the course somewhere.

 

Here is an article with a player testing old and (then) new equipment in 2007 "My current driver sends it 50 yards past the old MacGregor with modern balls." Luke Donald tees it up with vintage clubs - GOLF.com

here's another https://web.archive.org/web/20140728112853/http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/golf/pga/2007-07-12-oldclubs_N.htm

"There was a 25-30 yard difference between drivers, 40-50 yards when he mis-hit the old driver. Mis-hits with his current equipment meant off-line landings of 5-10 yards; with the old clubs, as much as 50 yards off-line"

 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

No worries, this discussion isn’t personal in any way.

The biggest difference is that the fitness training is far better these days. Pre-Tiger, golfer’s were not very fit as a group. There are a few exceptions as you noted, but by and large, it’s the fitness levels of the young athletes that give the entire field more distance.

The fitting equipment is also better. Athletes get things tuned nearly perfectly these days. If you fit a persimmon the same way with the modern shafts you’d get similar improvements for the pro.

The fact that DJ and Rory hit driving irons that far should pretty much validate that story. The ball is better, but not in the way people think.

I’m not any different when I play Balata versus ProV1, they’re made by the same company. They knew how to make great balls back then and they still make the greatest ball. You might get a rare dud Balata ball and it’s really rare to find a ProV1 that underperforms these days, but good ball to good ball they’re nearly the same.

The difference for me is the longevity of a Balata versus ProV1. I can barely play 3 holes with Balata but could play a dozen rounds with ProV1. Landfills will thank us, but that’s about it.

Forgiving heads help high handicaps and other duffers, but not the pros so much. It’s not even a night and day difference for single digit players.

[king_biscuit]

 

Thanks for the reply, take a look at the two articles i linked above.

 

btw, yes there are some athletically built players on tour now, but there are also guys like Bubba, Rickie, and 140 pound Justin Thomas who all pound it out there as far as anybody on tour -- None of those three are exactly studs -- neither is JB Holmes who was probably the longest hitter on tour before his brain surgery.

[Llortamaisey]

Here’s a hot take... I think drivers are not only topped out but regressing. Change my mind.

[grm24]

Exactly. People love to harp on the fact of the TM 17 yard thing w/o reading the fine print of it or realizing it was actually for fairway woods. Same thing with Callaway. When Callaway came out with the X-Hot fairway woods they claimed they were 32, yes 32, yards longer. Of course the devil was in the details. Like TM they were comparing it to their previous equipment.

https://www.tgw.com/callaway-mens-x-hot-fairways-p46548--1

[grm24]

And one year (2005) on what was then the Nationwide tour Bubba Watson averaged 334 yards off the tee over the course of a season. A guy that played an SMT driver at some point back then, Victor Schwamkrug, averaged over 339 yards for the season which was nearly 20 yards longer than 2nd place that season (2003).

[Rk5]

It's generally understood that drivers are becoming more forgiving in terms of ball speeds across the whole face.

 

"But they don't go any further out of the middle!"

 

I hear you but when you hit 20 balls with you current club on Trackman then move to the latest model there's every chance you will have picked up yardage because your AVERAGE distance will be up.

 

[cgasucks]

That is true. The PGA Tour is the top of the mountain but even though the Nationwide Tour (now the Korn Ferry Tour) is the minor league of golf, they have quite a few studs over there.

[arbeck]

This is a myth that you'll quickly learn won't work if you spend any time talking to real golf architects. Narrowing the fairways and growing out the rough actually helps the bombers more. When the fairways get narrow and the short player misses, they have a mid to long iron out of the rough. They have no chance. The bomber has a short iron or wedge out of the rough. Not ideal, but they aren't dead. When the short guy hits the fairway, His advantage of being on the fairway isn't much if anything, because he's still hitting the mid to long iron. But when the bomber is on the fairway, he can get it close. This is why a course like Bethpage Black with long rough eliminates a ton of the field before they even start the tournament.

It doesn't seem to be intuitive, but the way to make things hard for a tour player is actually make the fairways wider, but use angles to require the players to aim for small sections of the fairway. Have a huge wide fairway, but make it nearly impossible to shoot at the pin from one side of the fairway. Then put bunkers (or water, or OB, or native area) on the edge of the good side of the fairway that the player has to challenge for the proper angle. Use ground contours to make blowing it over the bunkers a very big risk. You might end up with an awkward lie or the ball may kick off the contours into trouble.

The problem with this kind of setup is that it only works if you make the course firm and fast. You saw that last week at Riviera and you usually see it in The Open. But when the course is soft, you can hold the green and attack pins from any angle. You don't need to worry about the ball running for ever and kicking off contours into trouble. A soft course makes things driving range golf which again, makes distance the most important skill.

It's not necessarily that the ball goes to far, it's that the distance has changed the game such that it has become the most important skill. Not just one of the skills you need.

[James the Hogan Fan]

Yes this!

Just like when people say 'well you can hit a balata just as far as a modern ball if you optimize spin/launch for it.' (it's true, I've done it) but guess what, it's a lot harder to meet that optimal condition with a persimmon driver on a balata ball. The margin for error is reduced.

All things being equal, two balls shot out of a cannon at the same speed will go the same distance. But golf swings are not equal, and the ball that 25 years ago would be squibbed across the freeway off the tow of a big bertha warbird is now a hard slice that still goes 200 and stays on property. And up goes the average distance.

Perfect strike for perfect strike we may well be maxed out. (Barring diminishing returns for aero and weight and headspeed improvements) But how many of us are making perfect strikes?