Forget about distance controlled golf balls...get rid of yardages and green books.

[Xiphos]

I keep reading about the need to distance proof golf by reining in balls and or equipment. However, I think it would be more interesting to get rid of yardages (except maybe 200,150,100) and green books. This would do a couple of things I think would be great for the sport. One, it would put a premium onplaying it safe into greens and off the tee. Two, and more importantly, it would put a premium on playing golf vs. practicing golf as one would need to gain the experience required to develop “feel”.  I’m involved in HS and young Junior golf programs and I can’t help but notice that kids don’t want to play choosing rather to hit the range. I think this change would give them incentive to play. 

I would love to see the best in the world rely on instinct. I love Bryson, but I’m dreading the day when kids need to pace off their putts and chips in order to compete. Anyways, that’s just my half baked two cents. What say you?

Edited February 25, 2021 by Xiphos

[Slona]

this type of thing has honestly been what's keeping me from investing in a rangefinder / GPS watch. I generally play "disconnected" with my watch and phone in my bag, so I always have to judge my yardages based on markers on the course. I feel like if I break down and get something that will give me distances, a part of my game I really have to think about will just go away. 

[Frankensteins Monster]

No sport on this planet doesn't have unknown distances. You know how far away the 3 point line is from the basket, the foul line, how long and side the court is. You know the uprights in the NFL are 10 yards back of the goal line, and they have markings all over the field. MLB's bases are 90ft apart. You know how far away all of the landmarks in every sport are. Golf should be no different. The variables, and guessing, in golf doesn't come from yardages. It comes from weather conditions and the lie of the ball. As far as green books go, the USGA limited that a lot.

[TiScape]

1 minute ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

No sport on this planet doesn't have unknown distances. You know how far away the 3 point line is from the basket, the foul line, how long and side the court is. You know the uprights in the NFL are 10 yards back of the goal line, and they have markings all over the field. MLB's bases are 90ft apart. You know how far away all of the landmarks in every sport are. Golf should be no different. The variables, and guessing, in golf doesn't come from yardages. It comes from weather conditions and the lie of the ball. As far as green books go, the USGA limited that a lot.

Yes. And they’re gonna get a yardage one way or another. They’ll never just guess. Needless to say golf is still plenty difficult knowing how far away your target is. 

[bigred90gt]

1 minute ago, Slona said:

this type of thing has honestly been what's keeping me from investing in a rangefinder / GPS watch. I generally play "disconnected" with my watch and phone in my bag, so I always have to judge my yardages based on markers on the course. I feel like if I break down and get something that will give me distances, a part of my game I really have to think about will just go away. 

It does go away. I was one of the last people I know to get GPS and then range finder. I found I concentrated more when I was pacing off yardages, and played much more by feel inside 100. I won plenty of tournaments on the AM tour I played on without either, and did not start using them until the last year I played it. About the only thing I think it does is speeds up getting a number. I shoot the pin, then glance at my GPS to get front/back, as opposed to finding a marker, pacing it off, doing the math, then guessing front/back. When I get to my ball, it is not uncommon that within a few seconds, I have a club out and am ready to start my preshot routine. If I was still pacing off yardages, it would take significantly longer. Add to that the fact that most courses no longer have markers on the sprinkler heads so you're effectively left with only 150 & 100 yard markers (and the occasional 200 yard marker), and it gets even worse. The prevalence of GPS and lasers basically did away with sprinkler head markers at most courses.

[Xiphos]

From what I understand, golf didn’t have yardage guides until Jack’s era and we have plenty of great stories and lore from that time.

Regarding other sports, I’m fairly sure that players in basketball aren’t relying on measurements for shooting basket and are instead relying on instincts and experience. The same goes for football, baseball, soccer etc. It’s not like someone fields a ball and says, I’m 75 feet away I must apply x force. 

[Pops99]

Not a fan of getting rid of yardage (guys like Bryson will just get slower as they will start pacing off yardage to the pin from anywhere inside 250). 
100% would be on board with getting rid of green reading books. Love that Augusta doesn’t allow them for the Masters. 

[Frankensteins Monster]

2 minutes ago, Xiphos said:

From what I understand, golf didn’t have yardage guides until Jack’s era and we have plenty of great stories and lore from that time.

Regarding other sports, I’m fairly sure that players in basketball aren’t relying on measurements for shooting basket and are instead relying on instincts and experience. The same goes for football, baseball, soccer etc. It’s not like someone fields a ball and says, I’m 75 feet away I must apply x force. 

They all calculate how much force must be applied. It's done in a faction of a second most of the time and instinctively, but it's also done based on landmarks. Take away all lines in the NBA and players will struggle shooting. NFL kickers need to know EXACT distance it is from the goalposts. 

[Ferguson]

Our club has front middle and back on the sprinkler heads.   Pacing off the yardage prepares my mind to execute the shot.   I carry a GPS when I'm out of position, needless to say with each passing year I find myself using it more.  

 

Both of my sons use range finders.   

 

[TiScape]

2 minutes ago, Xiphos said:

From what I understand, golf didn’t have yardage guides until Jack’s era and we have plenty of great stories and lore from that time.

Regarding other sports, I’m fairly sure that players in basketball aren’t relying on measurements for shooting basket and are instead relying on instincts and experience. The same goes for football, baseball, soccer etc. It’s not like someone fields a ball and says, I’m 75 feet away I must apply x force. 

I see what your saying but in your examples I don’t see any advantage to knowing your this many feet from

the receiver or basket. If your shooting baskets are you gonna do anything differently knowing your exactly 16ft from the hoop??? Na. Apples to oranges IMO

[manku]

What would happen then is the caddies with the best memory would become more valuable...they would still pace off and measure everything beforehand...only those who could remember those figures come game time would have a huge edge.

 

Since the top players could pay more, they would then get these caddies and further separate themselves from the journeymen.

[Xiphos]

I carry a rangefinder and I know that it helps me with wedge accuracy. I still enjoy pacing off yardages. Nevertheless, I enjoy playing without yardages sometimes. I’m surprised how accurate I can be relying on instinct alone. 

[bigred90gt]

5 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

They all calculate how much force must be applied. It's done in a faction of a second most of the time and instinctively, but it's also done based on landmarks. Take away all lines in the NBA and players will struggle shooting. NFL kickers need to know EXACT distance it is from the goalposts. 

I just doubt that, honestly. Have you ever played a pick up game in a local park with no lines? If those guys can sink baskets, why on earth would you think an NBA player would struggle? We used to play in streets and driveways, with no marks, and made more than we missed. Are you suggesting we could outscore and NBA player? Just like baseball, you dont think about the distance between bases when you throw a ball from base to base. You throw instinctively based on visualization, and that is at the peewee ball level. Professionals have spent their life honing their craft. You think Tom Brady counts hash marks on the field when throwing a pass?

[TiScape]

Isn’t the reason they’re talking about limiting how far the ball goes is to eliminate most par 4s being driver wedge and par 5s playing like 4s for these guys. Not knowing yardages doesn’t fix that issue. 

[Slona]

20 minutes ago, bigred90gt said:

It does go away. I was one of the last people I know to get GPS and then range finder. I found I concentrated more when I was pacing off yardages, and played much more by feel inside 100. I won plenty of tournaments on the AM tour I played on without either, and did not start using them until the last year I played it. About the only thing I think it does is speeds up getting a number. I shoot the pin, then glance at my GPS to get front/back, as opposed to finding a marker, pacing it off, doing the math, then guessing front/back. When I get to my ball, it is not uncommon that within a few seconds, I have a club out and am ready to start my preshot routine. If I was still pacing off yardages, it would take significantly longer. Add to that the fact that most courses no longer have markers on the sprinkler heads so you're effectively left with only 150 & 100 yard markers (and the occasional 200 yard marker), and it gets even worse. The prevalence of GPS and lasers basically did away with sprinkler head markers at most courses.

Man, I feel like a crazy person with some of my friends when I say "just go look at the sprinkler" and most of them who got into the game recently have no clue what I mean. Double this up with what you said about more and more of them being removed, they just feel like I'm trying to prank them or something. 

[Frankensteins Monster]

1 minute ago, bigred90gt said:

I just doubt that, honestly. Have you ever played a pick up game in a local park with no lines? If those guys can sink baskets, why on earth would you think an NBA player would struggle? We used to play in streets and driveways, with no marks, and made more than we missed. Are you suggesting we could outscore and NBA player? Just like baseball, you dont think about the distance between bases when you throw a ball from base to base. You throw instinctively based on visualization, and that is at the peewee ball level. Professionals have spent their life honing their craft. You think Tom Brady counts hash marks on the field when throwing a pass?

You said it correct, they do it based on visualization because of... landmarks. They take in the whole field/court. It's done in a split second, but it's done, and also... other players/opponents are landmarks as well. There is a constant influx of distance markers all over the place in all sports. Go to a basketball court where a hoop is in a wide open field with nothing behind it. See how well you shoot on it. There's also a WORLD of difference between estimating feet away your teammate is to throw him or her the ball than guessing how far away a flag is hundreds of yards away.

[TiScape]

7 minutes ago, Slona said:

Man, I feel like a crazy person with some of my friends when I say "just go look at the sprinkler" and most of them who got into the game recently have no clue what I mean. Double this up with what you said about more and more of them being removed, they just feel like I'm trying to prank them or something. 

Funny. Depends a lot on what you are use to and when you started. Your story reminds me how most kids these days don’t know how to tell time on a clock that isn’t digital! 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Xiphos said:

I keep reading about the need to distance proof golf by reining in balls and or equipment. However, I think it would be more interesting to get rid of yardages (except maybe 200,150,100) and green books. This would do a couple of things I think would be great for the sport. One, it would put a premium onplaying it safe into greens and off the tee. Two, and more importantly, it would put a premium on playing golf vs. practicing golf as one would need to gain the experience required to develop “feel”.  I’m involved in HS and young Junior golf programs and I can’t help but notice that kids don’t want to play. I think this change would give them incentive. 

I would love to see the best in the world rely on instinct. I love Bryson, but I’m dreading the day when kids need to pace off their putts and chips in order to compete. Anyways, that’s just my half baked two cents. What say you?

 

Pro yardage books and pro green books having nothing to do with whether kids want to play golf.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Pops99 said:

100% would be on board with getting rid of green reading books. Love that Augusta doesn’t allow them for the Masters. 

Augusta cannot disallow them, because Augusta follows the Rules of Golf, but Augusta has never allowed anyone access enough to commercially produce one.  Augusta provides the players with yardage books, but no detailed green-reading information.  The players are free to make their own, if they choose, and can arrange the access.  

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Xiphos said:

From what I understand, golf didn’t have yardage guides until Jack’s era and we have plenty of great stories and lore from that time.

Regarding other sports, I’m fairly sure that players in basketball aren’t relying on measurements for shooting basket and are instead relying on instincts and experience. The same goes for football, baseball, soccer etc. It’s not like someone fields a ball and says, I’m 75 feet away I must apply x force. 

None of those sports are relevant to the subject of pro yardage books or greens books, certainly not in the way you suggest. Not a rational argument.

[bigred90gt]

44 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

You said it correct, they do it based on visualization because of... landmarks. They take in the whole field/court. It's done in a split second, but it's done, and also... other players/opponents are landmarks as well. There is a constant influx of distance markers all over the place in all sports. Go to a basketball court where a hoop is in a wide open field with nothing behind it. See how well you shoot on it. There's also a WORLD of difference between estimating feet away your teammate is to throw him or her the ball than guessing how far away a flag is hundreds of yards away.

They do it based on visualization because of experience and repetition, not landmarks. Of course they take in their surroundings, but they're not referencing the lines on the ground to determine the force needed to get the ball to the rim man. It just doesn't happen.  I guarantee you could put them in a black room, black floors, black walls, black ceiling, with a basketball goal in the middle, and they'd make more than they missed from wherever you told them to shoot from (within reason, no full court shots obviously). Hell, I haven't shot a basketball in probably 20 years. I promise you you could put a goal in the middle of nowhere and ask me to shoot a basket from anywhere reasonable and I would more than likely hit the backboard at least. I'd put money on it. When you pitch something at the trash can, like a wad of paper towels, does the actual distance ever enter your mind? I know for me it doesn't. I see the trash can, and from a lifetime of experience instinctually know how hard to chunk the paper. Just like putting. I have never paced off a putt in the nearly 20 years I've been playing golf. I look at the hole, and instinctually swing the putter at the required speed to usually leave a tap-in. You're far overthinking it. Have you ever played basketball in a driveway or a street, with no markings for distance reference? Were you unable to make a basket? There were no lines in the hood where I grew up playing ball. Have you ever thrown a baseball or a football? Do you think about how far the person is, or do you look and just know how hard to throw the ball because of experience? I mean, playing catch in the yard with no known distance markers would be impossible if what you think is true.

[Frankensteins Monster]

2 minutes ago, bigred90gt said:

They do it based on visualization because of experience and repetition, not landmarks. Of course they take in their surroundings, but they're not referencing the lines on the ground to determine the force needed to get the ball to the rim man. It just doesn't happen.  I guarantee you could put them in a black room, black floors, black walls, black ceiling, with a basketball goal in the middle, and they'd make more than they missed from wherever you told them to shoot from (within reason, no full court shots obviously). Hell, I haven't shot a basketball in probably 20 years. I promise you you could put a goal in the middle of nowhere and ask me to shoot a basket from anywhere reasonable and I would more than likely hit the backboard at least. I'd put money on it. When you pitch something at the trash can, like a wad of paper towels, does the actual distance ever enter your mind? I know for me it doesn't. I see the trash can, and from a lifetime of experience instinctually know how hard to chunk the paper. Just like putting. I have never paced off a putt in the nearly 20 years I've been playing golf. I look at the hole, and instinctually swing the putter at the required speed to usually leave a tap-in. You're far overthinking it. Have you ever played basketball in a driveway or a street, with no markings for distance reference? Were you unable to make a basket? There were no lines in the hood where I grew up playing ball. Have you ever thrown a baseball or a football? Do you think about how far the person is, or do you look and just know how hard to throw the ball because of experience? I mean, playing catch in the yard with no known distance markers would be impossible if what you think is true.

Basketball hoop has a backboard... that is a landmark. Playing catch... the other person is a landmark. And again... estimating distance of 10ft, 25ft, is FAR easier than estimating 200 yards with zero markings. I'd guarantee if anybody went to a course they're not familiar with, you set them out there at 175 yards, they would be off by 10-20 yards. That's 30-60ft.

[Xiphos]

4 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Basketball hoop has a backboard... that is a landmark. Playing catch... the other person is a landmark. And again... estimating distance of 10ft, 25ft, is FAR easier than estimating 200 yards with zero markings. I'd guarantee if anybody went to a course they're not familiar with, you set them out there at 175 yards, they would be off by 10-20 yards. That's 30-60ft.

Yet aside from some reference points (150 trees) that is exactly what golfers did until the 1970’s. 

[Xiphos]

14 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

None of those sports are relevant to the subject of pro yardage books or greens books, certainly not in the way you suggest. Not a rational argument.

I’m not the one that brought up other sports as a rational for using yardage guides in golf. 

[wildcatden]

At the Masters, the topographical maps that plot putting surfaces down to the tenth of a degree of slope are not allowed. The PGA Tour should take this approach for all tournaments for 1 year (or at least for a subset of tournaments) and see what happens.

[Frankensteins Monster]

Just now, Xiphos said:

Yet aside from some reference points (150 trees) that is exactly what golfers did until the 1970’s. 

And they had a 150yard reference they would pace off. They also had books with yardages in them. They also had local caddies. Here's a link to Arnold Palmer's yardage book from the 60's of Augusta. The notion that players of the past played blindly is a complete fallacy.

 

https://www.masters.com/en_US/news/articles/2017-04-04/palmers_yardage_book_a_masters_trendsetter.html

 

Here's a history of when yardage books really started... it was 1954.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-man-who-invented-the-yardage-book

“Now, I will say this," Beman went on. "I was not a popular guy with caddies, because I required them to go walk the golf course before every round, and pace off every pin position. I had my yardages to the front of the green, and I knew how deep the green was, so I would give my caddie a pad on which I had marked the dimensions. I wanted to know how deep the pin was that day, and he would pace that off. Nobody had any pin sheets in those days -- but I did.”

 

/thread

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

And they had a 150yard reference they would pace off. They also had books with yardages in them. They also had local caddies. Here's a link to Arnold Palmer's yardage book from the 60's of Augusta. The notion that players of the past played blindly is a complete fallacy.

 

https://www.masters.com/en_US/news/articles/2017-04-04/palmers_yardage_book_a_masters_trendsetter.html

 

Here's a history of when yardage books really started... it was 1954.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-man-who-invented-the-yardage-book

“Now, I will say this," Beman went on. "I was not a popular guy with caddies, because I required them to go walk the golf course before every round, and pace off every pin position. I had my yardages to the front of the green, and I knew how deep the green was, so I would give my caddie a pad on which I had marked the dimensions. I wanted to know how deep the pin was that day, and he would pace that off. Nobody had any pin sheets in those days -- but I did.”

 

/thread

Nicklaus actually picked it up from Beman!

 

Hogan reputedly paced off yardages and was known for playing practice rounds to garner info and supposedly just kept stuff in his head.

 

Golfers have been using reference points for what clubs to hit forever, and course yardage markers and landmarks, but yes, it did start to become more of an overall "thing" in terms of yardage books for pros with Jack.  Hasn't hurt the game, so really what problem is being solved by eliminating them? 

 

Anyway, the suggestion kids aren't wanting to get into golf because of pro yardage books is still ridiculous.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

Haha, maybe I'm biased - excerpt from winter project below, pretty fun!  Walking and looking at the course from the hole backwards, plotting ideal landing spots and what clubs to hit, all part of learning the nuances of the course, strategy, course management - all part of playing golf.  Makes you think, sometimes admit you really never did know how to play certain holes intelligently, lol, but mostly just fun.

 

 

 

 

[clevited]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind this at all.  Imagine if you had to judge distance now all the time rather than have all of these exact yardages and stuff.  I actually don't think you should be able to pace anything off either, or go up to see the landing area of your shot (it all leads to slow play imo).  I am not gunho that such a change be made though, I really don't care, but if ever it was, I would be fine with it.  I am also of the mind that nobody should ever have a caddy (at least in the capacity that they are used today) as I think that changes golf from a solo sport to a team sport.

[Frankensteins Monster]

2 minutes ago, clevited said:

Honestly, I wouldn't mind this at all.  Imagine if you had to judge distance now all the time rather than have all of these exact yardages and stuff.  I actually don't think you should be able to pace anything off either, or go up to see the landing area of your shot (it all leads to slow play imo).  I am not gunho that such a change be made though, I really don't care, but if ever it was, I would be fine with it.  I am also of the mind that nobody should ever have a caddy (at least in the capacity that they are used today) as I think that changes golf from a solo sport to a team sport.

So you want to completely do a 180 of how golf has been since the 1950s?