Does shaft flex and weight even matter?

[clinkinfo]

Ok, so here are 2 very interesting videos:

 

 

 

 

 

And there’s many more with similar conclusions.  These videos challenge what we all think about the importance of the golf shaft.  It’s hard to process, so I’m kinda curious, what do you all think it really means?

 

[phizzy30]

I like Rick Shiels and his vids.  However I would take some things he says with a grain of salt.  That being said, you can't argue with numbers.  Weight matters the most IMO, then flex.   Ever tried hitting a senior flex if your ss is 118 like mine?  Spin rates jump to 3500+rpm.  Weight is more for control/dispersion.  Remember, length of shaft also matters as well. 

[TiScape]

I think it also comes down to what feels better to you. I personally like the feel of driver with a shaft around 75 grams opposed to something in the low to mid 60s. Like Phizzy said, I also feel like I can control it a little better. 

[phizzy30]

3 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I think it also comes down to what feels better to you. I personally like the feel of driver with a shaft around 75 grams opposed to something in the low to mid 60s. Like Phizzy said, I also feel like I can control it a little better. 

Yep.  I'm already pretty wild off the tee, but the sub 70 gram shaft makes is 10x worst. 

[MtlJeff]

For me it makes a difference both in feel and performance. I've done grass fittings with irons and seen the difference with my own eyes in terms of ballflight. For some players it probably makes less difference than others

 

Pros all get fitted for shafts and there's no monetary reason for them to do this, they aren't sponsored by shaft companies for the most part. If shafts didn't matter they'd just use whatever came with the club

[clinkinfo]

36 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I like Rick Shiels and his vids.  However I would take some things he says with a grain of salt.  That being said, you can't argue with numbers.  Weight matters the most IMO, then flex.   Ever tried hitting a senior flex if your ss is 118 like mine?  Spin rates jump to 3500+rpm.  Weight is more for control/dispersion.  Remember, length of shaft also matters as well. 

Ricks swing speed is like 110-113 normally.   His spin didn’t jump up with the senior flex.

 

having a preference is fine, but when you watch the actual videos and see the results of the blind testing, you realize that “preference” might be based on nothing other than marketing or preconceived notions that aren’t true.  In other words, you see an X or a 70gram label and decide before you swing, you’ll hit that one better.

 

I would not have guessed the results in the videos.  But like you say, it’s hard to argue with numbers.  Well .... it’s easy to ARGUE with numbers, just harder to be right lol.

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by clinkinfo

[Cactus Jack]

I just finished testing shafts and the results were impressive. A properly fit shaft improved my strike point which boosted ball speed by 2mph. Everything else was the same, the shaft just help me be more efficient...better smash factor. 

[phizzy30]

3 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

Ricks swing speed is like 110-113 normally.   His spin didn’t jump up with the senior flex.

 

 

having a preference is fine, but when you watch the actual videos and see the results of the blind testing, you realize that “preference” might be based on nothing other than marketing or preconceived notions that aren’t true.  In other words, you see an X or a 70gram label and decide before you swing, you’ll hit that one better.

 

Yes and that is why I said numbers do matter and don't lie.  My ss is 118 on a stock swing so I swing a bit harder than Rick.  I'm also a very high spin player and if you look at my set up it's as low/low as you can get plus I play the Chrome Soft X LS which is the lowest spinning tour ball.  Left Dash is also another super low spin ball.  I've already swung a senior and ladies flex shaft.  Rpm shot up over 3500.  I always get fitted for driver before I buy on trackman.  I look at numbers, not just what I think would be good for me. 

[clinkinfo]

29 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Yes and that is why I said numbers do matter and don't lie.  My ss is 118 on a stock swing so I swing a bit harder than Rick.  I'm also a very high spin player and if you look at my set up it's as low/low as you can get plus I play the Chrome Soft X LS which is the lowest spinning tour ball.  Left Dash is also another super low spin ball.  I've already swung a senior and ladies flex shaft.  Rpm shot up over 3500.  I always get fitted for driver before I buy on trackman.  I look at numbers, not just what I think would be good for me. 

 

I’m a low/low high spin player as well.

 

But I think you’re missing the point of the testing though.  The shaft seems to affect the impact location on the head, the shaft is NOT putting that spin on the ball directly.  Your impact location is causing that.  So when you test a senior flex shaft, you’re likely hitting out of the bottom of the face and that’s why the spin is rising, NOT because the shaft is more flexible.  That’s what makes the results so unintuitive.   
 

I guess you can have a “‘chicken/egg” argument about it all, if the shaft is causing you to miss the center of the face, and that causes bad launch, does it matter how the bad launch comes about?  I guess not, it’s still coming from the shaft.  It’s just not for the reason we all intuitively seem to think.  

Edited May 9, 2021 by clinkinfo

[clinkinfo]

10 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

I just finished testing shafts and the results were impressive. A properly fit shaft improved my strike point which boosted ball speed by 2mph. Everything else was the same, the shaft just help me be more efficient...better smash factor. 

 

you seem to have the same insight from your tests that the videos support.   The shaft is moving the strike location, that’s really it.  

[phizzy30]

2 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

I’m a low/low high spin player as well.

 

But I think you’re missing the point of the testing though.  The shaft seems to affect the impact location on the head, the shaft is NOT putting that spin on the ball directly.  You’re impact location is causing that.  So when you test a senior flex shaft, you’re likely hitting out of the bottom of the face and that’s why the spin is rising, NOT because the shaft is more flexible.  That’s what makes the results so unintuitive.   

I do agree about shaft flex affecting the impact location.  I can tell what low on the face feels like and I discarded those swings and only focused on the ones I made solid contact with.  Did the same with S flex and X flex shafts on the launch monitor which is what I'm basing my numbers all off of.  I used impact tape as well.  With all that being said, I got what you're saying. 

[phizzy30]

6 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

I’m a low/low high spin player as well.

 

But I think you’re missing the point of the testing though.  The shaft seems to affect the impact location on the head, the shaft is NOT putting that spin on the ball directly.  You’re impact location is causing that.  So when you test a senior flex shaft, you’re likely hitting out of the bottom of the face and that’s why the spin is rising, NOT because the shaft is more flexible.  That’s what makes the results so unintuitive.   
 

I guess you can have a “‘chicken/egg” argument about it all, if the shaft is causing you to miss the center of the face, and that causes bad launch, does it matter how the bad launch comes about?  I guess not, it’s still coming from the shaft.  It’s just not for the reason we all intuitively seem to think.  

I also did mention that weight was way more important than flex.  😉

[clinkinfo]

1 minute ago, phizzy30 said:

I also did mention that weight was way more important than flex.  😉

 

yeah, but the Crossfield video is also showing that’s not necessarily the case either.  That ladies flex shaft was only 43 grams!

 

in the end, I still don’t know what I think of it all.  It’s interesting though, I’ve been playing a tensei white TX flex lately, something that really isn’t the “right” flex for my speed. Which, funny enough, is why I started accidentally watching those videos, I just wanted to see what I might be “trading off” playing TX if I shouldn’t be.   BUT....I’ve had the best (accurate and long) driving days with it this season.  And on my launch monitor, launch window is PERFECT with it.    So....maybe in the end I’m experiencing some of the same phenomenon.  Maybe the flex really doesn’t matter as much except to help find the club face center.   I’m not sure.  

[phizzy30]

1 minute ago, clinkinfo said:

 

yeah, but the Crossfield video is also showing that’s not necessarily the case either.  That ladies flex shaft was only 43 grams!

 

in the end, I still don’t know what I think of it all.  It’s interesting though, I’ve been playing a tensei white TX flex lately, something that really isn’t the “right” flex for my speed. Which, funny enough, is why I started accidentally watching those videos, I just wanted to see what I might be “trading off” playing TX if I shouldn’t be.   BUT....I’ve had the best (accurate and long) driving days with it this season.  And on my launch monitor, launch window is PERFECT with it.    So....maybe in the end I’m experiencing some of the same phenomenon.  Maybe the flex really doesn’t matter as much except to help find the club face center.   I’m not sure.  

What you're experiencing is uncommon.  With that being said, one of the assistant pros who used to work at the cc my father is a member at said this.  His driver shaft played extremely stiff.  I think it cpm'd out to 282 but he tipped it 2 inches which is unheard of for driver shaft.  He said the dispersion was great and he could never turn the ball over which he preferred.   So I believe you when you say all this.  

[clinkinfo]

24 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

What you're experiencing is uncommon.  With that being said, one of the assistant pros who used to work at the cc my father is a member at said this.  His driver shaft played extremely stiff.  I think it cpm'd out to 282 but he tipped it 2 inches which is unheard of for driver shaft.  He said the dispersion was great and he could never turn the ball over which he preferred.   So I believe you when you say all this.  

 

I’m lucky enough to have a launch monitor at home, so I don’t have to guess.  There’s no question, it’s working.  Up until those videos though, I’m not sure I really understood why it was working so well. 

[clinkinfo]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

For me it makes a difference both in feel and performance. I've done grass fittings with irons and seen the difference with my own eyes in terms of ballflight. For some players it probably makes less difference than others

 

Pros all get fitted for shafts and there's no monetary reason for them to do this, they aren't sponsored by shaft companies for the most part. If shafts didn't matter they'd just use whatever came with the club

 The videos aren’t necessarily saying it “‘doesn’t matter”, they are trying to show that it matters less and for a different reason than we might all think.  

[MelloYello]

I always laugh when someone talks as though 15g of weight or maybe having the wrong flex in the shaft makes golf unplayable. That's total BS. I've heard that before and trust me when I say the person is always a moron. A lot of golfers have ego tied up in their fittings. If you're good, you can adjust to anything even remotely close to whatever you might consider optimal. It's not even clear what optimal might mean. Longest? Straightest? Best feeling? Least distracting? Cheapest, lol?

 

I think it's totally fine to prefer a specific shaft, especially if you've got disposable income and don't really mind paying for the "upgrade." I like my expensive Tensei Orange because I think it's strength makes it more stable when I strike the toe. It also clearly brings the ball-flight down versus the cheaper stock shaft. It's proven to go a bit further out on the course. I like the feel of it, too.

 

But a Pro golfer with a $40 beginner's Walter Hagen driver could still hit more fairways than me. Golf ultimately comes down to skill. Equipment is icing on the cake. It does something and that should be a net positive for your game, but it's not nearly as critical as people usually ramble on about.  

Edited May 9, 2021 by MelloYello

[jomatty]

I thin’ it really depends on your specific swing.  I’m not especially fast, and have a very smooth tempo swing.  I have no issue with lighter shafts and prefer something that is not too stout, because I like to feel it load and don’t have an aggressive enough transition to feel it load otherwise.  I have a friend who has the same swing speed but a much more aggressive transition and he says my shaft feels like a wet noodle.  He needs more stability and an overall stiffer profile, as well as a heavier shaft to feel in control.  we hit the ball about the same distance and with similar accuracy.  I often will use a stiffer regular or a softer stiff and he uses an x flex...

[clinkinfo]

35 minutes ago, jomatty said:

I thin’ it really depends on your specific swing.  I’m not especially fast, and have a very smooth tempo swing.  I have no issue with lighter shafts and prefer something that is not too stout, because I like to feel it load and don’t have an aggressive enough transition to feel it load otherwise.  I have a friend who has the same swing speed but a much more aggressive transition and he says my shaft feels like a wet noodle.  He needs more stability and an overall stiffer profile, as well as a heavier shaft to feel in control.  we hit the ball about the same distance and with similar accuracy.  I often will use a stiffer regular or a softer stiff and he uses an x flex...

 

so I would respectfully suggest an alternative theory after watching many of the videos on this topic.   I think it comes down to specific swing, but for a different reason.   I think if you have a highly repeatable, highly grooved swing like many of the YouTube reviewers, based on the testing I think the shaft will make LESS difference, because you are already very good at delivering the center of the club to the ball.  All of this testing implies, the only thing the shaft really affects is the impact location on the club face. If you give “machine like” golfers who practice often a 43 gram woman’s flex or an 80 gram x flex, they will still be better at finding the middle then the average weekend golfer.  Which in turn means, they will get better launch and see less difference shaft to shaft.  I’m not sure if the weekend golfer wouldn’t see more difference shaft to shaft, or at least INTERPRET more difference shaft to shaft, because  they already don’t find middle far more often.  
 

it’s an important point in another crossfield video actually, he says “‘if you have trackman and not GCX showing face impact location, you could very well interpret the difference in flight on trackman to “‘shaft flex or weight”, when it’s not.  It’s simply a different strike location on the face”.  Again, there’s a bit of a “chicken/egg” there as well, since it’s still one shaft outperforming another for that player.  But Again, it’s just not for the reason we all intuitively think.

 

I think he talks about it in this one:

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by clinkinfo

[phizzy30]

46 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

I always laugh when someone talks as though 15g of weight or maybe having the wrong flex in the shaft makes golf unplayable. That's total BS. I've heard that before and trust me when I say the person is always a moron. A lot of golfers have ego tied up in their fittings. If you're good, you can adjust to anything even remotely close to whatever you might consider optimal. It's not even clear what optimal might mean. Longest? Straightest? Best feeling? Least distracting? Cheapest, lol?

 

I think it's totally fine to prefer a specific shaft, especially if you've got disposable income and don't really mind paying for the "upgrade." I like my expensive Tensei Orange because I think it's strength makes it more stable when I strike the toe. It also clearly brings the ball-flight down versus the cheaper stock shaft. It's proven to go a bit further out on the course. I like the feel of it, too.

 

But a Pro golfer with a $40 beginner's Walter Hagen driver could still hit more fairways than me. Golf ultimately comes down to skill. Equipment is icing on the cake. It does something and that should be a net positive for your game, but it's not nearly as critical as people usually ramble on about.  

Nobody here is saying it's unplayable.  Would you rather have the best numbers possible and the best results out on course from a properly fitted shaft or not?  I sure as hell do.  Could I play an R or S flex shaft that's sub 60 grams?  Sure I could and I have way back when.  My ss was also significantly slower back then.  I'm not willing to sacrifice 20 yards of distance and dispersion for the sake of something that's too whippy for me.  No ego here when it comes to my golf clubs.  If it works I put it in my bag period.  I just find that heavier and stiffer shafts work best for me.  I've hit thousands of balls on trackman and other launch monitors over the years.  I don't JUST go by "feel" or some other bs that some people like to throw around.  I need to see actual numbers.  I agree that golf comes down to skill and that the equipment is icing on the cake.  Cake tastes better with icing.  Would you not agree?

Edited May 9, 2021 by phizzy30

[jomatty]

24 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

so I would respectfully suggest an alternative theory after watching many of the videos on this topic.   I think it comes down to specific swing, but for a different reason.   I think if you have a highly repeatable, highly grooved swing like many of the YouTube reviewers, based on the testing I think the shaft will make LESS difference, because you are already very good at delivering the center of the club to the ball.  All of this testing implies, the only thing the shaft really affects is the impact location on the club face. If you give “machine like” golfers who practice often a 43 gram woman’s flex or an 80 gram x flex, they will still be better at finding the middle then the average weekend golfer.  Which in turn means, they will get better launch and see less difference shaft to shaft.  I’m not sure if the weekend golfer wouldn’t see more difference shaft to shaft, or at least INTERPRET more difference shaft to shaft, because  they already don’t find middle far more often.  
 

it’s an important point in another crossfield video actually, he says “‘if you have trackman and not GCX showing face impact location, you could very well interpret the difference in flight on trackman to “‘shaft flex or weight”, when it’s not.  It’s simply a different strike location on the face”.  Again, there’s a bit of a “chicken/egg” there as well, since it’s still one shaft outperforming another for that player.  But Again, it’s just not for the reason we all intuitively think.

 

I think he talks about it in this one:

 

Perhaps. I don’t doubt there is some truth to that.  However,  It is hard for me to think of someone with a very aggressive tempo and transition, like Bryson or Rahm, playing with a ladies flex shaft and getting good results without changing their swings dramatically.  Could they make changes?  Of course, but it would cost them significantly.  For someone like me, who has a very mild transition, it definitely is not a big deal.  Anything from ladies to x flex I can do ok with, although I obviously have my preference somewhere in the middle.

[clinkinfo]

46 minutes ago, jomatty said:

Perhaps. I don’t doubt there is some truth to that.  However,  It is hard for me to think of someone with a very aggressive tempo and transition, like Bryson or Rahm, playing with a ladies flex shaft and getting good results without changing their swings dramatically.  Could they make changes?  Of course, but it would cost them significantly.  For someone like me, who has a very mild transition, it definitely is not a big deal.  Anything from ladies to x flex I can do ok with, although I obviously have my preference somewhere in the middle.

 

watch the 3rd video, that guy is almost at 170mph ball speed. They are only testing S vs X in that one, but there’s nothing in it.  

Edited May 9, 2021 by clinkinfo

[clinkinfo]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Nobody here is saying it's unplayable.  Would you rather have the best numbers possible and the best results out on course from a properly fitted shaft or not?  I sure as hell do.  Could I play an R or S flex shaft that's sub 60 grams?  Sure I could and I have way back when.  My ss was also significantly slower back then.  I'm not willing to sacrifice 20 yards of distance and dispersion for the sake of something that's too whippy for me.  No ego here when it comes to my golf clubs.  If it works I put it in my bag period.  I just find that heavier and stiffer shafts work best for me.  I've hit thousands of balls on trackman and other launch monitors over the years.  I don't JUST go by "feel" or some other bs that some people like to throw around.  I need to see actual numbers.  I agree that golf comes down to skill and that the equipment is icing on the cake.  Cake tastes better with icing.  Would you not agree?

 

“I'm not willing to sacrifice 20 yards of distance and dispersion for the sake of something that's too whippy for me.”

 

But that’s the entire point.  This statement does not appear to be true in their testing.  And we need to be careful too, swing weight plays a part in all this as opposed to static weight.  A tensei orange shaft “feels” lighter in the swing than some others with the counterweighting for example, so not all “weight” is equal.  
 

If Rick shields couldn’t successfully guess the flex of those 4 shafts after hitting them, if you covered up the shafts and did a blind test, I’m not sure any of us would be able to do it.  And that’s the ultimate question, is a lot of it in our heads?   

 

[bl8d]

It's not that complex. 

when you play a softer shaft the shaft releases (kick forward and up )sooner as it gets near the bottom of the arc.

The trick is to play the ball 1dia. further back in your stance than you would normally to avoid a low on the face contact which would create the  high pinning ball.

 

[MtlJeff]

2 hours ago, MelloYello said:

I always laugh when someone talks as though 15g of weight or maybe having the wrong flex in the shaft makes golf unplayable. That's total BS. I've heard that before and trust me when I say the person is always a moron. A lot of golfers have ego tied up in their fittings. If you're good, you can adjust to anything even remotely close to whatever you might consider optimal. It's not even clear what optimal might mean. Longest? Straightest? Best feeling? Least distracting? Cheapest, lol?

 

I think it's totally fine to prefer a specific shaft, especially if you've got disposable income and don't really mind paying for the "upgrade." I like my expensive Tensei Orange because I think it's strength makes it more stable when I strike the toe. It also clearly brings the ball-flight down versus the cheaper stock shaft. It's proven to go a bit further out on the course. I like the feel of it, too.

 

But a Pro golfer with a $40 beginner's Walter Hagen driver could still hit more fairways than me. Golf ultimately comes down to skill. Equipment is icing on the cake. It does something and that should be a net positive for your game, but it's not nearly as critical as people usually ramble on about.  

 

I pretty much agree with this, very good comp is "icing on the cake" haha....Probably a great way of putting it.

 

I mentioned in another thread recently i shot like 75-76 in Vegas playing with old big bertha irons with regular shafts and a beat up driver with a 50G stock regular.

 

But like you i much prefer the stuff that i like. How many shots it saves me? Some...But i don't know how many exactly

[Nard_S]

All indications are top players know exactly what they like in shaft weight, club specs and flex. Maybe we should know too.

[jomatty]

13 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

 

watch the 3rd video, that guy is almost at 170mph ball speed. They are only testing S vs X in that one, but there’s nothing in it.  

I couldn’t really see his swing good in the video.  He definitely is fast but I can’t see how quick he is in transition.  Someone like Cameron champ could no doubt use a stiff or regular and get it around just fine.  Someone like rahm who is so quick and aggressive might struggle more.  Hope I don’t sound argumentative, I just like talking about this sort of stuff...

[RogerinNewZealand]

95kg me 9 years ago

90 gram ns proshafts

681 irons

=

Hook

or Huge Hook

Thats my recollection

cheers

[Valtiel]

14 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

 

watch the 3rd video, that guy is almost at 170mph ball speed. They are only testing S vs X in that one, but there’s nothing in it.  

There are several problems with this and Crossfield's logic. First, the small sample size. Everyone swings and feels the club differently, so saying that there is nothing in it based on that is obviously a little silly. Second, in the case of that video, those are both fairly stout shafts, so yes there isn't going to be much difference in the numbers overall, especially with a better player that is going to compensate during a session hitting multiple balls. Third, if there was any validity to the idea that none of this stuff matters then surely we would see somewhere out there on tour a player playing something ludicrously soft and/or light. And interestingly enough we did for a moment when Adam Scott and Louis Oosthuizen put the Autoflex in play, and that did not last long. 

Any decent player that is smacking consecutive balls on the range can adjust for a change in feel, and this is normally how these tests are done. The problem is that unless you really like hitting provisionals, you don't get the opportunity to adjust like that on the course. You need something that syncs up with how you swing it naturally, not how can be made to swing it with multiple attempts. Until these tests are done both indoors AND out in a real playing environment over enough holes to actually establish real performance, they are mostly clickbait. 

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think there is any magic in shafts and I have been plenty vocal about the irresponsible ways they are marketed. Shafts are feel and timing devices first and foremost and should rarely be considered for things like launch and spin characteristics. But guys like Mark have almost gone out of their way to make sure these videos are never thorough enough to actually draw a meaningful conclusion from other than "shafts don't matter sometimes". I can play fine golf with just about anything in my driver, but it is because I am going to compensate for it. I want a shaft that I DON'T have to compensate for, because lord knows the golf swing has enough moving parts in it as it is. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Valtiel

[jubilee_links]

You have to take these videos with a pinch of salt. Both Crossfield and Shiels are high quality ballstrikers (in the spread of golfers from high h cap to Rory),  have really good face control and decent swing path control. So for people that have really good skills, shafts done make much difference as even subconsciously they make them work.

 

For super high end players  - a lot comes down to feel, confidence and really marginal gains - a 0.5% gain at 120mph is a big gain on the course.

 

For average golfers - with big missses and inconsistencies - I believe shaft can make a big difference. Personally I swing below 100mph and have poor face control - going lighter was a disaster as it made my face control even worse.