Is there USGA Guidance for the Minimum Number of Rounds Posted in a Year for Net Events?

[ALTSean]

Our club is debating the rules for our upcoming net Member / Member event.  Some folks are in favor of requiring a minimum number of scores to be posted within the past year, i.e. 5 rounds posted within 12 months.  Others say that it should not matter and folks can enter without having scores posted as long as they have a "verifiable" handicap.  For additional context, our handicap committee is practically non-existent and the winners of the Member / Member get $1,500 in pro shop credit.  Thoughts?  USGA guidance?  

[davep043]

As far as I've ever seen, there's no specific guidance form the USGA about number of scores posted, this would be a decision by your Committee.  In my mind, someone who's interested in playing in a net tournament without having posted scores does NOT have a "verifiable handicap".    The "guidance" from the USGA is actually a requirement that each player must post all appropriate scores.   I'm generally not a big one to complain about sandbagging, but to offer significant prizes in a net competition without ANY handicap monitoring is to beg sandbaggers to enter.  I don't know what to suggest for this season, but I would suggest that you form a handicap committee and begin to do things correctly.

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, ALTSean said:

Our club is debating the rules for our upcoming net Member / Member event.  Some folks are in favor of requiring a minimum number of scores to be posted within the past year, i.e. 5 rounds posted within 12 months.  Others say that it should not matter and folks can enter without having scores posted as long as they have a "verifiable" handicap.  For additional context, our handicap committee is practically non-existent and the winners of the Member / Member get $1,500 in pro shop credit.  Thoughts?  USGA guidance?  

 

You don't say where you are in your profile, but if it were me, I'd want to have at least 10 rounds within the preceding 4 months and 20 within the last year.

 

Only exception would be for injury.

[ALTSean]

34 minutes ago, davep043 said:

As far as I've ever seen, there's no specific guidance form the USGA about number of scores posted, this would be a decision by your Committee.  In my mind, someone who's interested in playing in a net tournament without having posted scores does NOT have a "verifiable handicap".    The "guidance" from the USGA is actually a requirement that each player must post all appropriate scores.   I'm generally not a big one to complain about sandbagging, but to offer significant prizes in a net competition without ANY handicap monitoring is to beg sandbaggers to enter.  I don't know what to suggest for this season, but I would suggest that you form a handicap committee and begin to do things correctly.

 

Thanks for the additional info.  I argued that a handicap is not "verifiable" if they do not have a minimum number of scores posted within 12 months, i.e. something like 5-10 scores in 12 months.

 

 

[ALTSean]

6 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

You don't say where you are in your profile, but if it were me, I'd want to have at least 10 rounds within the preceding 4 months and 20 within the last year.

 

Only exception would be for injury.

 

Agree.  We're in a year round handicap posting state so even with weather and COVID, players can easily post 5-10 rounds in the past 12 months, especially if they are playing for $$$.  

 

 

[davep043]

Down to a practical matter, when is the competition?  If you publish a requirement right now, is there time for the completely non-compliant folks to play and post enough scores?  If you're a month away, anyone should be able to have 5 scores posted, even if they've posted none so far.  And if they can't, its only because they've chosen not to post scores over the past weeks and months.  

 

[Mr. Bean]

What is a net event?

[bazinky]

Most every decent sized event I've played in requires at least 10 rounds in the preceding 12 months. You need to be careful about requiring too many rounds in the months right before the event, as that might eliminate guys who are more seasonal or who are coming off an injury layoff/surgery (like me this year!).

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

What is a net event?

 

Are you serious or just trolling?

[Mr. Bean]

37 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

Are you serious or just trolling?

 

I am serious. Is a net event same as a handicap competition?

[jvincent]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am serious. Is a net event same as a handicap competition?

 

Yes.

 

Typically medal play with handicaps applied to gross scores or sometimes a stableford with handicap strokes allocated on the appropriate holes.

[rogolf]

Here's what it says in the Rules of Handicapping under the Tournament Committee: (apologies for the different formatting - copying out of a pdf)

Note that the Tournament Committee can set a player's playing handicap for an event if they are not comfortable that it does not reflect their playing ability.  For example, I would think the Tournament Committee could say that unless there are 10 (pick a number) scores posted in the past 12 months (pick a number), the Committee will determine/set the player's handicap for the event.  This usually scares away some people who might manipulate their handicaps.

 

The Committee in charge of a competition may set a maximum limit for play within the Terms of the Competition.  For example, the Committee can set:

• A maximum Handicap Index for entry or use in the competition.
• A maximum Playing Handicap.

For the purpose of updating a player's Handicap Index after a competition where
the Committee has set maximum limits, the player's full, unrestricted Course
Handicap should be used for the calculation of their adjusted gross score.
For ease of competition administration purposes, the Committee in charge of a
multi-round competition played during the same or consecutive days must
determine within the Terms of the Competition whether a player’s Handicap Index
will remain unchanged for the duration of the competition. It is strongly
recommended that the Handicap Index remains unchanged between such rounds.
7.2b Other Actions
The Committee in charge of a competition may reserve the right to:

• Adjust the Playing Handicap of an entrant within the Terms of the Competition

where there is evidence that the player’s Handicap Index does not reflect their
demonstrated ability.

• Determine that when course conditions are exceptionally poor, the submission

of scores for handicap purposes should be suspended. The Committee should
obtain approval from the appropriate Authorized Association when
implementing such a suspension.

[rogolf]

The Tournament Committee could likely even go further and flat out say that if there are not x scores posted in the last y months, the player's playing handicap will be 50% of the last recorded handicap.  It may appear obvious that I'm a hard-bum when it comes to players manipulating their handicap to win prizes and am willing to take some strong actions in order to have a respected event.

Another option is to have very limited prize value for the score winners (a sleeve of balls?) and save the valuable prizes for door prizes where everyone has an equal chance of winning.

Edited May 25, 2021 by rogolf

[Shilgy]

Hey OP….are you Tony Romo?  Cool to have you here.

 

(look up Romo on the USGA app. Texas is the state.

 

His last 20 scores posted go back to 2013 lol.  Using the information above the USGA would be justified declining his entry to US Am qualifying.

[bazinky]

I also like the events where they use your lowest HI over the last 12 months, on top of requiring a minimum number of scores. Prevents guys from loading up on bad scores right before an event. Using the current index basically rewards dishonest guys who sandbag, and honest guys who are coming out of a mini-slump ...

Edited May 26, 2021 by bazinky

[Petethreeput]

46 minutes ago, bazinky said:

I also like the events where the use either your lowest HI over the last 12 months, on top of requiring a minimum number of scores. Prevents guys from loading up on bad scores right before an event. Using the current index basically rewards dishonest guys who sandbag, and honest guys who are coming out of a mini-slump ...

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  I am on the committee of a pretty high dollar tourney and there are a group of 6-8 guys who play match play predominantly, when they are out of the hole they pick up and take the "correct" score as if it were stroke play.  Now I also have to confess in my 10 year history of playing in this silly tourney, last year I was the recipient of my partners poor form leading up to the tourney, legit as well since they were all sanctioned tournament scores, but he turned it around about a week prior and we won our flight going away.

 

But even then, the former example will always have an elevated cap for these events.  Frankly, those guys stink and ruin for the others.

[ALTSean]

Thanks for all the inputs and I think most of the WRX crowd is in agreement that you need some minimum number of scores in a given time period to have a legit and verifiable handicap.  Unfortunately our tournament organizers do not share this sentiment and are not going to require a minimum number of scores.  I hope the event goes well, but suspect we're going to have some issues and sandbagging and / or accusations of sandbagging when a team wins $1,000+ with questionable handicaps.  

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, ALTSean said:

Thanks for all the inputs and I think most of the WRX crowd is in agreement that you need some minimum number of scores in a given time period to have a legit and verifiable handicap.  Unfortunately our tournament organizers do not share this sentiment and are not going to require a minimum number of scores.  I hope the event goes well, but suspect we're going to have some issues and sandbagging and / or accusations of sandbagging when a team wins $1,000+ with questionable handicaps.  

See if they will use the player's low handicap index (it is shown in GHIN).  That's their lowest index in the last 12 months.

[ALTSean]

Just now, rogolf said:

See if they will use the player's low handicap index (it is shown in GHIN).  That's their lowest index in the last 12 months.

 

I do like that idea, but I think it will also fall on deaf ears.  Our Member / Member has traditionally been poorly attended so they are trying to go big this year and raise the entry fee and raise the prizes and do not want to do anything to restrict signups.  The issue I see is that it is fully a net event with relatively large prizes so I think it is going to invite sandbagging and may end up turning off the honest members from signing up in future years.  

 

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, ALTSean said:

 

I do like that idea, but I think it will also fall on deaf ears.  Our Member / Member has traditionally been poorly attended so they are trying to go big this year and raise the entry fee and raise the prizes and do not want to do anything to restrict signups.  The issue I see is that it is fully a net event with relatively large prizes so I think it is going to invite sandbagging and may end up turning off the honest members from signing up in future years.  

 

Agree with you on that!  Again, save the large prizes for door prizes where everyone has an equal chance (regardless of stated handicap) and award much less significant prizes for the low scores.  That takes away any advantage of sandbagging and, imo, will be well received by the participants.

[tssgj65]

We went to Low 12 Month Handicap for all multi day men's club events.  The lowest of the last 12 month shows what the potential has been during the last year.  Also, for the whiners (there will always be whiners) as it works out about 95% of handicaps are adjusted down for the multi day tournaments (these are the tournaments with more value in the way of shop credit and calcutta $).  Some are adjusted down more than others of course, but almost all are less than current handicap.  We still use current handicap for one day events.  It takes away the ability to manipulate handicaps up as a multi day events approach.  Also, all men's club events (competition) are posted.

[Hawkeye77]

On 5/26/2021 at 4:53 PM, ALTSean said:

 

I do like that idea, but I think it will also fall on deaf ears.  Our Member / Member has traditionally been poorly attended so they are trying to go big this year and raise the entry fee and raise the prizes and do not want to do anything to restrict signups.  The issue I see is that it is fully a net event with relatively large prizes so I think it is going to invite sandbagging and may end up turning off the honest members from signing up in future years.  

 

Don't let your wife wear a t-shirt that says "ALTSean told you so!" to next year's club Christmas party ---- you'll get expelled (even though she's right) and then we'll have a whole thing on here about it! 😀

[nsxguy]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:04 PM, tssgj65 said:

We went to Low 12 Month Handicap for all multi day men's club events.  The lowest of the last 12 month shows what the potential has been during the last year.  Also, for the whiners (there will always be whiners) as it works out about 95% of handicaps are adjusted down for the multi day tournaments (these are the tournaments with more value in the way of shop credit and calcutta $).  Some are adjusted down more than others of course, but almost all are less than current handicap.  We still use current handicap for one day events.  It takes away the ability to manipulate handicaps up as a multi day events approach.  Also, all men's club events (competition) are posted.

 

"demonstrated ability"