Green reading books

[rogolf]

[teatew21]

Assume this will apply to all tournament golf, but us AMs will still get to use these during our weekend rounds?

 

Also, seems like it’s to replace the “extensive” details in the books and not greens/yardage books entirely?

[antip]

A long overdue step in the right direction, IMO. Next, ban caddies from providing advice! The game is supposed to be a test of player skill and judgement.

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, antip said:

A long overdue step in the right direction, IMO. Next, ban caddies from providing advice! The game is supposed to be a test of player skill and judgement.

Caddies given advice are hardwired into the origins and roots of golf - no need to change that part of the game at all. 

[sui generis]

51 minutes ago, antip said:

Next, ban caddies from providing advice!

Isn't that an enforcement problem? Though the ruling bodies might agree with you, how could they enforce it? in any case, caddies and advice predate even lead tape. 😉

[antip]

10 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Isn't that an enforcement problem? Though the ruling bodies might agree with you, how could they enforce it? in any case, caddies and advice predate even lead tape. 😉

Just put the lead tape on the caddie's mouth, problem fixed.

[antip]

11 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Caddies given advice are hardwired into the origins and roots of golf - no need to change that part of the game at all. 

I appreciate hell will freeze over first.... but if I'd been there on the course when this rot first started there would have been at least one voice of reason/dissent (you choose) present.

 

[2bGood]

15 minutes ago, antip said:

I appreciate hell will freeze over first.... but if I'd been there on the course when this rot first started there would have been at least one voice of reason/dissent (you choose) present.

 

Given your grumpy old man opinions, I've always thought you were there when Old Tom was winning tournaments. 😉

[rogolf]

42 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Caddies given advice are hardwired into the origins and roots of golf - no need to change that part of the game at all. 

Do you think this caddie was giving advice to one of the greatest players?

[2bGood]

15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Do you think this caddie was giving advice to one of the greatest players?

That is a pretty cool golfer to bring up. I am not going to argue if Tait was one of the greatest players or not as we never got to see his full potential. Given his reputation as being a really friendly down to earth guy, I would guess he did enjoy advice from young caddies and his good friends who also commonly caddied for him alike. 

[antip]

37 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Given your grumpy old man opinions, I've always thought you were there when Old Tom was winning tournaments. 😉

He wasn't "Old" Tom when I first came across him.

[RichieHunt]

I don't believe that green books should be allowed.  I think readily available empirical information should be allowed.  There are some caveats, mainly when it comes to helping pick up the pace of play and enforcement.  But I feel greens books don't fit into those caveats.

 

From first hand experience, I got a green book from Golf Logix and my SG - Putting dramatically improved instantaneously.  It's a Tillinghast design (well at least 18 of the 27 holes) and it was interesting to see how the greens book helped with the tricks that Tillinghast put in to not only trick your eyes, but your feet (I use AimPoint as well).

 

In fact, we were playing in a 4-man scramble and we had this 1 putt that the green book had breaking to the right and each of us hit 4 putts right on line and then at the very last second the ball would straighten out enough that it almost looked like it broke left.  I thought the green book had not captured this until a week later I looked more closely at the book and saw that it had 1 arrow pointing in the opposite direction right near the hole.  That's how accurate the books are.

 

To me, that's different than a yardage book.  A yardage book is basically readily available empirical information that one could simply obtain by pacing off the yardage . The yardage book just saves player's time from getting the yardage.  And if you were to get rid of the yardage book and yardage markers, all a player would need to do is find landmarks on each hole (bunker, tree, etc) and use Google Earth to get the distance and remember it for the course.  And you really can't ban pacing off because it would be impossible to enforce.  

 

It's also different because a yardage doesn't tell you how the ball is going to react.  My average 8-iron goes about 162 yards, but even if I have 162 yards to the hole, I have no idea if that ball will go 162 yards, even on a well struck shot.  The green book tells one exactly how the ball will behave because you just can't argue against gravity.

 

In the end, that's why I'm for legalizing rangefinders, but I'm against green books.  They both provide information, but one provides a minimal amount of information based on what encompasses the shot and the other provides you far more detailed information.

 

I do disagree with the banning of slope readers and digital bubble levels in the practice round.  It's a practice round. They should be able to scout the course however they deem fit.

 

 

 

 

RH

[RCGA]

Couldn't you go out there with a stimpmeter, level and a pin sheet and figure it out yourself?  

 

Edit: Wait, you can do this now....even on the practice green?

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by RCGA

[Hawkeye77]

On 11/2/2021 at 8:54 PM, rogolf said:

Do you think this caddie was giving advice to one of the greatest players?

Don’t count that MacDannie!

[cval]

The question to me would be is green reading a skill we want to test during a golf tournament? I think it is so in IMO green reading books should be banned. Does the public want to see golfers miss more putts?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, cval said:

The question to me would be is green reading a skill we want to test during a golf tournament? I think it is so in IMO green reading books should be banned. Does the public want to see golfers miss more putts?

I'd much rather see the players reading greens than reading books.  Seeing them reading books on TV is not particularly interesting, while seeing their skills tested is.

[Hawkeye77]

On 11/2/2021 at 6:49 PM, teatew21 said:

Assume this will apply to all tournament golf, but us AMs will still get to use these during our weekend rounds?

 

Also, seems like it’s to replace the “extensive” details in the books and not greens/yardage books entirely?

 

I assume interpretation 4.3a/1 will continue to apply unless your local course has the new local rule in place for your rounds, which seems unlikely.  So I think it is just a limitation aimed at professional golf in particular that spurred it.

 

As I read it, It looks like they can't even use a device that shows which way the green would slope to come up with their written notes which seems like taking it too far, IMO.  If they want to put in the time, who cares.  Maybe that avoids an argument about whether they merely copied their info from a book or source that clearly used such a device, but who can't make different looking and fewer arrows, lol.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[antip]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:29 AM, rogolf said:

I'd much rather see the players reading greens than reading books.  Seeing them reading books on TV is not particularly interesting, while seeing their skills tested is.

Agree. But let me add, they still need to complete the stroke within the time limit and breaches of that are just so common at the pro level - this is tour admin responsibility that fails. In the past, I was just amazed how no tournament said anything while Tiger took minutes to look at a tricky putt - that is not the constraint the rest of us play under.

[rogolf]

49 minutes ago, antip said:

Agree. But let me add, they still need to complete the stroke within the time limit and breaches of that are just so common at the pro level - this is tour admin responsibility that fails. In the past, I was just amazed how no tournament said anything while Tiger took minutes to look at a tricky putt - that is not the constraint the rest of us play under.

As sui has said, PGATour golf on TV is entertainment, not golf as the rest of the world plays - both by skill and application of the Rules.

[rogolf]

13 hours ago, rogolf said:

duplicate deleted

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by rogolf

[RCGA]

Do hand written notes only pertain to the breaks in the green?

 

If I have a digital yardage book that I print off, am I able to photoshop some typed notes about elevations, yardages, green speeds, green breaks, etc.?

Edited January 9, 2022 by RCGA

[davep043]

44 minutes ago, RCGA said:

Do hand written notes only pertain to the breaks in the green?

 

If I have a digital yardage book that I print off, am I able to photoshop some typed notes about elevations, yardages, green speeds, green breaks, etc.?

Its extremely unlikely that you'll run into this new Model Local Rule, but its probably best if you read it for yourself here:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/clarifications-of-the-2019-rules-of-golf.html

along with the current Rule in Interpretation 4.3a/1.  As I read the MLR, if its in effect, you may not use anything other than the Committee-issued book, along with handwritten notes.  The base Interpretation limits the size and scale of any book.

Edited January 9, 2022 by davep043

[antip]

9 hours ago, RCGA said:

Do hand written notes only pertain to the breaks in the green?

 

If I have a digital yardage book that I print off, am I able to photoshop some typed notes about elevations, yardages, green speeds, green breaks, etc.?

The restrictions relate solely to green reading materials, used to help read the line of play when playing from the putting green or using a putter anywhere on the course. In that usage, anything digitally photoshopped would not qualify as handwritten notes. Dave has linked to the clarification (that further restricts green reading materials if new MLR G-11 is in place) and 4.3a/1 (the global restrictions). Perhaps the most useful explanations of what applies to everyone is in the global FAQs located here https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/green-reading-materials/green-reading-materials--faqs.html

[Dead Solid Perfect]

3 course records set this weekend in Hawaii, with no greenbooks allowed.  Stupid rule change

[davep043]

8 minutes ago, Dead Solid Perfect said:

3 course records set this weekend in Hawaii, with no greenbooks allowed.  Stupid rule change

I don't know the answer, did the guys who played well this weekend rely on green-reading books previously?  It's possible that the new rule did have an effect, that the loss of a paper "crutch" actually did hurt a few individuals.  As I said, I don't know for sure whether Rahm and Smith and the others who led the field depended on the books last season.  But it was sure nice not having to watch the players studying their textbooks before each putt.

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

I don't know the answer, did the guys who played well this weekend rely on green-reading books previously?  It's possible that the new rule did have an effect, that the loss of a paper "crutch" actually did hurt a few individuals.  As I said, I don't know for sure whether Rahm and Smith and the others who led the field depended on the books last season.  But it was sure nice not having to watch the players studying their textbooks before each putt.

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, Dead Solid Perfect said:

3 course records set this weekend in Hawaii, with no greenbooks allowed.  Stupid rule change

 

Dear Mr Stupid Rule Change. Perhaps you are unaware that the Stupid Rule Change was asked for by the various professional TV golf organizations. The ruling bodies made the change at their behest. 🙄

[davep043]

8 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Dear Mr Stupid Rule Change. Perhaps you are unaware that the Stupid Rule Change was asked for by the various professional TV golf organizations. The ruling bodies made the change at their behest. 🙄

I believe the PGA Tour's Player Advisory Committee voted unanimously to try to develop this Rule specifically for their own (the PGA Tour) use.

 

[Forrest Sanchez]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:54 AM, rogolf said:

Do you think this caddie was giving advice to one of the greatest players?

The greatest player. I am currently in college and also playing golf. In the future I dream of becoming a doctor and have already started preparing a residency personal statement for university. I turned to professionals for residency personal statement editing. Only the best writers are on this service: they are specialists in compiling personal applications for each medical specialty.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Forrest Sanchez

[denismcg]

Does this rule apply to GPS devices that show green contour information?  I assume it does.