Dr Kwon

[yoose]

54 minutes ago, agolfman said:

This is something I've been thinking about this week, once the Dr. pointed out in the video on the prior page to not use the squat move.  I'm fine with that as the squat move always seemed to be forced into my own movement (maybe not everybody's?).  

 

But what we really have never been taught, or generally discussed, is how much pushing with each foot is the "right" amount?

 

I'm thinking the amount used in the drills is probably adequate for the actual swing....it's enough to be very intentional but not so much that we're trying to actually leave the ground...More than a little, but less than a lot, I suppose.  Probably 100% more than I use today....

I took a screenshot from this video that shows the amount of force as a function of body weight at different parts of the swing. 

 

 

[glk]

I Have had this bookmarked for several years now

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by glk

[agolfman]

36 minutes ago, glk said:

The cool thing is that the horizontal, torque, and vertical forces can be measured and synched with the swing by the swing catalyst system and others.  So if you find an instructor that has one and has been trained then they can show you how well you use the ground, what is your predominant ate pattern etc.  and work with you to use it better.  Dr kwon has force plates under the green mats that folks swing on.

 

 

webinar that might be if interest

 

 

Thanks much, will check that out!  

[PracticeSwinger]

24 minutes ago, Forged4life said:

so it seems the real “secret” is figuring out how to lengthen the “moment arm”. 
 

is this basically the unweighting early and stepping left before the backswing ends essentially? So the transition motion is key? 
 

Is that the key keeping the COM back behind the ball while your force is moving forward….?

More or less yes to all of this… to maximize the amount of torque you need to have the longest moment arm possible and the longest forward-angled lead ground reaction force… now, not sure you want to maximize torque and not focus on other forces / more to optimize torque (and the timing of it) than to maximize it

[agolfman]

15 minutes ago, yoose said:

I took a screenshot from this video that shows the amount of force as a function of body weight at different parts of the swing. 

 

 

Thanks fo sharing this.  It leads me to thinking we've really missed the boat on "feels".  I think we're sort of stuck on "feels" as a way to achieve certain positions as opposed to something more productive, like the "feel" of how we use forces and weighting/unweighting in our lower bodies.  Maybe some people already do this, but it's new territory for me.

 

I'd like to get a better way to think about foot pressure, perhaps by using the step drill pressures as a decent approximation of how much force to create at similar points in the swing.  Captain Obvious has entered the discussion, but I think Dr. Kwon probably intended this, but didn't necessarily say it in his videos.  

[Jbarretta]

@Forged4life

 

Took my 3rd lesson with Mathew Yun today.  (Check out his youtube channel and instagram) 

 

He is a disciple of Dana D and Dr. Kwon.  We did sequencing dr kwon step drills with and without balls.  I commented that with the step drill i can feel the sequencing but when im at address during a regular golf shot,  how to i recreate the feel  of the pressure and weight shift like during the step drills?

 

He gave me an amazing setup hack. he had me address the ball with open shoulders and start the swing with a trigger of lifting my trail heel off the ground and slam it down as i simultaneously start the backswing with the arms.  Backswing and downswing were the best on video ive ever gotten.   He said at times he played tournament golf with this trigger

 

 

[yoose]

10 minutes ago, agolfman said:

Thanks fo sharing this.  It leads me to thinking we've really missed the boat on "feels".  I think we're sort of stuck on "feels" as a way to achieve certain positions as opposed to something more productive, like the "feel" of how we use forces and weighting/unweighting in our lower bodies.  Maybe some people already do this, but it's new territory for me.

 

I'd like to get a better way to think about foot pressure, perhaps by using the step drill pressures as a decent approximation of how much force to create at similar points in the swing.  Captain Obvious has entered the discussion, but I think Dr. Kwon probably intended this, but didn't necessarily say it in his videos.  

yeah this is new to me as well. i have always read that we need to turn our hips, but not much about using the ground or how to use the ground in conjunction with turning my hip. ive been doing a lot of the drills at home, but haven't had a chance to go to the range yet, hoping I see some progress when I do get a chance to hit some balls. Feels like I have the most trouble with the lead foot push on the downswing and completing my turn.

[ericg33]

How big of a move is the first shift?  In the videos the students seem to make a pretty big move off the ball and Dr Kwon seems to encourage it. However, when Kwon demonstrates the move with his arms crossed it appears much more subtle. 
 

I currently feel like I screw my trail foot into the ground to help get my hip back and recenter. When I make a more pronounced shift it feels like a sway and leads to a lot of poor contact. Just wondering if that means I need to do a bigger recentering move to counteract the first shift or if subtle is fine as long as the pressure is moving in the right pattern?  Thanks. 

[skraly]

1 hour ago, Jbarretta said:

@Forged4life

 

 

He gave me an amazing setup hack. he had me address the ball with open shoulders and start the swing with a trigger of lifting my trail heel off the ground and slam it down as i simultaneously start the backswing with the arms.  Backswing and downswing were the best on video ive ever gotten.   He said at times he played tournament golf with this trigger

 

 

Kind of looks like Matthew Wolff does that to an extreme degree.

Edited January 13, 2022 by skraly

[PracticeSwinger]

8 minutes ago, ericg33 said:

How big of a move is the first shift?  In the videos the students seem to make a pretty big move off the ball and Dr Kwon seems to encourage it. However, when Kwon demonstrates the move with his arms crossed it appears much more subtle. 
 

I currently feel like I screw my trail foot into the ground to help get my hip back and recenter. When I make a more pronounced shift it feels like a sway and leads to a lot of poor contact. Just wondering if that means I need to do a bigger recentering move to counteract the first shift or if subtle is fine as long as the pressure is moving in the right pattern?  Thanks. 

I get what you’re saying and I think the screwing motion in the takeaway is enough (swaying is approximately 1inch from AMG and by P2-P3ish max) to recenter… I’m in the same boat (swing video in a thread this week here)… I’d guess it’s better to minimize sway-slide (helping low point control also) and to try to maximize force ‘into’ the ground / screwing

[ericg33]

8 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I get what you’re saying and I think the screwing motion in the takeaway is enough (swaying is approximately 1inch from AMG and by P2-P3ish max) to recenter… I’m in the same boat (swing video in a thread this week here)… I’d guess it’s better to minimize sway-slide (helping low point control also) and to try to maximize force ‘into’ the ground / screwing

Thanks. I saw your swing video and the responses which is actually one of the reasons for my post. Good swing by the way. I thought your first shift was similar to some of the Kwon videos and Monte and others seemed good with it so it caused me me to poke at my approach a bit. 

[CasualLie]

50 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I get what you’re saying and I think the screwing motion in the takeaway is enough (swaying is approximately 1inch from AMG and by P2-P3ish max) to recenter… I’m in the same boat (swing video in a thread this week here)… I’d guess it’s better to minimize sway-slide (helping low point control also) and to try to maximize force ‘into’ the ground / screwing

 

Big fan of the AMG guys but one thing I feel can mess with golfers trying to learn is they are communicating a measurement at a specific point in time, but unless you have force plates and 3D measuring tech in your basement, how will you know if you are nailing the proper pressure shift at 1 inch away, or 2 inches, or the recenter at what exactly?

 

At least with the Kwon focus and the step drill it's all in continuous motion.  You will know you are getting it right checking the swing speed monitor or seeing an improvement in compression.  And Kwon now has so many videos of different golfers getting it right you can compare to your own video; mostly at the top of the swing.

 

Playing around with the step drills has opened my eyes to that Matt Wolff move.  While his move is a bit extreme for most golfers, it makes better sense now as a trigger.

[MK7Golf21]

3 hours ago, glk said:

I Have had this bookmarked for several years now

 

 

pretty good little video. I think this Kwon thread is the best thread I’ve read on this forum in regard to ground reaction forces and how to pivot. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Redjeep83

[glk]

34 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

Big fan of the AMG guys but one thing I feel can mess with golfers trying to learn is they are communicating a measurement at a specific point in time, but unless you have force plates and 3D measuring tech in your basement, how will you know if you are nailing the proper pressure shift at 1 inch away, or 2 inches, or the recenter at what exactly?

 

At least with the Kwon focus and the step drill it's all in continuous motion.  You will know you are getting it right checking the swing speed monitor or seeing an improvement in compression.  And Kwon now has so many videos of different golfers getting it right you can compare to your own video; mostly at the top of the swing.

 

Playing around with the step drills has opened my eyes to that Matt Wolff move.  While his move is a bit extreme for most golfers, it makes better sense now as a trigger.

If you want to see examples of shifts off the ball to start watch face on swing at DD ig.   Lots of examples.   Lots start with a shift left first then back.   
he shifts left and raises his right heel then . . . https://www.instagram.com/p/CWMreh0JZSv/

Edited January 13, 2022 by glk

[Forged4life]

3 hours ago, glk said:

I Have had this bookmarked for several years now

 

 

That shows me how to achieve the moment arm length visually which is huge! Thanks!!

[Nels55]

46 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

Big fan of the AMG guys but one thing I feel can mess with golfers trying to learn is they are communicating a measurement at a specific point in time, but unless you have force plates and 3D measuring tech in your basement, how will you know if you are nailing the proper pressure shift at 1 inch away, or 2 inches, or the recenter at what exactly?

 

At least with the Kwon focus and the step drill it's all in continuous motion.  You will know you are getting it right checking the swing speed monitor or seeing an improvement in compression.  And Kwon now has so many videos of different golfers getting it right you can compare to your own video; mostly at the top of the swing.

 

Playing around with the step drills has opened my eyes to that Matt Wolff move.  While his move is a bit extreme for most golfers, it makes better sense now as a trigger.

I was a member of AMG+ for a month and I looked at pretty much all of the video and tried to do the drills.  I found it a bit overwhelming and I could not seem to do a lot of the drills correctly.  I also posted a bit of video on the facebook page and I looked at a lot of the other students video and the comments that were provided.  In the end I got frustrated and gave up on it.  AMG shows what pros do at least the ones that they have measured and they provide drills that are intended to teach the movements but I never really understood the reasons why I should do those movements.  Dr. Kwon's teaching is the only teaching that I have ever seen (LOL in 55 years I have seen a lot) that explains the reasons why in a straightforward manner with no nonsense.  Do the drills this way for this reason and this will happen. 

 

The problem of course is am I doing the drills correctly?  The answer to that question is; no, I am not as every time that I watch one of the videos I see Kwon correcting the student who is doing something incorrectly that I am doing.  But I am doing the drills at a higher level then I was when I first started and I am seeing good results on video and in my ball striking which is encouraging enough to keep me going.  I am hopeful that I can get to whatever my potential is with this training system...  LOL and I don't have to pay $90 per month or whatever AMG+ is charging to do it...

[rondo01]

Another version of a trigger move. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYp9MFlKcAJ/?utm_medium=copy_link

[MonteScheinblum]

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?utm_medium=copy_link

[Golfbeat]

Probably good to give some credit to Be Better Golf for getting us on the Dr Kwon  track!

[ezpz]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVn1axEDHif/?utm_medium=copy_link

When trying to recenter like this I get my head way towards the target, DTL it looks like right shoulder over and OTT club. Is this typical, and any feels to aid this? Or maybe just try a bit more tilt away fromt arget at setup?

[Seamus_McDuff]

Seeing this thread for the first time and was reminded of a Malaska video where he uses the tennis/batting/pitching comparison. His re-recentering is a little earlier, but still better than too late. 
 

 

[Forged4life]

2 hours ago, ezpz said:

When trying to recenter like this I get my head way towards the target, DTL it looks like right shoulder over and OTT club. Is this typical, and any feels to aid this? Or maybe just try a bit more tilt away fromt arget at setup?

me too would love to know how to get pressure forward but keep mass and head more behind the ball bit without dropping right shoulder and tilting. Think it’s more right side band??
 

[airjammer]

3 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

Probably good to give some credit to Be Better Golf for getting us on the Dr Kwon  track!

Yes and Dana as well. Also while we are issuing credit…I think the members of this forum need to get some sort of kick back for giving all of these incognito golf instructors that visit this site and use these topics for their social media posts.😜

[Daniel Eason]

Dr Kwon seems to be opening up his studies for us which is brilliant as I've always felt like I was like I was a kung fu Grasshopper lol

 

His study is best served with physical examples as I have always read his material and got lost in the practicalities of how you get the feelings within you CNS. 

 

His external influences on sound/feel/move are good too like hitting the drum or politician. 

 

 

[glk]

some clips from Matt yun.
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYDIxkBp8fy/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXzsyYspqPS/

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXyl9O1AP1U/
 

[PracticeSwinger]

3 hours ago, ezpz said:

When trying to recenter like this I get my head way towards the target, DTL it looks like right shoulder over and OTT club. Is this typical, and any feels to aid this? Or maybe just try a bit more tilt away fromt arget at setup?

 

1 hour ago, Forged4life said:

me too would love to know how to get pressure forward but keep mass and head more behind the ball bit without dropping right shoulder and tilting. Think it’s more right side band??
 

I think this is the golden nugget and it’s not that easy to implement…

 

From my view and uneducated guess, when guys/gals first see the recentering motion, dynamic end of backswing, and it’s effect on torque/speed possibilities – they begin to try and implement it with their whole body (and thus COM) moving forward early, especially their upper body in order to try and push hard under their lead foot (trying to create the longest front GRF arrow, which is a good thing) – but doing so you actually limit the torque you can generate (we’re seeing it here with the moment arm length shortening) + you lose secondary tilt (and tough on low point control also) -> your whole body (head included) is bouncing around and it’s a recipe that ultimately stalls your rotation, flip save…

 

While it appears to me (even Dr Kwon saying it in the videos) that it’s preferable to swing inside a cone; head staying relatively still, COM staying back just long enough for a long moment arm in transition, and thus bigger torque, pressure early on the lead side just from the lower body (COP going left quickly), never losing secondary tilt – screwing, bracing on the lead side and right side bending (without trail shoulder drop) to go through the ball

 

I'm still in the process of trying to get there (thread here on my swing if need be) and on the few swings I do get to pivot through - it's definitely a feeling of screwing my lead foot early, upper body staying back just long enough (think sweeping the ball and going through it) and get there by trail side bend (don't run out of right arm) and the right shoulder going through the ball also just by the momentum/torque generated

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Daniel Eason said:

Dr Kwon seems to be opening up his studies for us which is brilliant as I've always felt like I was like I was a kung fu Grasshopper lol

 

His study is best served with physical examples as I have always read his material and got lost in the practicalities of how you get the feelings within you CNS. 

 

His external influences on sound/feel/move are good too like hitting the drum or politician. 

 

 

LOL I like the drum much better, I could not imagine hitting anyone with a golf club even a politician...  I guess that I am a bit to literal at times.

[agolfman]

One thing I realized after watching the Kwon videos is how difficult student find his drills at the outset. Same for some commenters here by the looks of it.  I think it shows just how out of sync we can be with his "step-turn" sequence...almost like everyone is trying the exact opposite in their execution and their minds are thinking they are doing it properly.  Shows how it can be learned after a while, but there's no quick fix to it.

 

Like so many things, gains are earned through putting in the work and hyper focusing on being very precise about the process.  In reality, that's how the brain gets re-wired in a sense...you have to break it of its bad habits through brute force, then the re-learning has a chance to stick.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

 

I think this is the golden nugget and it’s not that easy to implement…

 

From my view and uneducated guess, when guys/gals first see the recentering motion, dynamic end of backswing, and it’s effect on torque/speed possibilities – they begin to try and implement it with their whole body (and thus COM) moving forward early, especially their upper body in order to try and push hard under their lead foot (trying to create the longest front GRF arrow, which is a good thing) – but doing so you actually limit the torque you can generate (we’re seeing it here with the moment arm length shortening) + you lose secondary tilt (and tough on low point control also) -> your whole body (head included) is bouncing around and it’s a recipe that ultimately stalls your rotation, flip save…

 

While it appears to me (even Dr Kwon saying it in the videos) that it’s preferable to swing inside a cone; head staying relatively still, COM staying back just long enough for a long moment arm in transition, and thus bigger torque, pressure early on the lead side just from the lower body (COP going left quickly), never losing secondary tilt – screwing, bracing on the lead side and right side bending (without trail shoulder drop) to go through the ball

 

I'm still in the process of trying to get there (thread here on my swing if need be) and on the few swings I do get to pivot through - it's definitely a feeling of screwing my lead foot early, upper body staying back just long enough (think sweeping the ball and going through it) and get there by trail side bend (don't run out of right arm) and the right shoulder going through the ball also just by the momentum/torque generated

 

This is a bit confusing for me, but I think that I get what you are saying.  One thing that comes to mind from reading these posts is that the AMG+ videos mentioned that mass shifts slowly and early while pressure shifts quickly.  They said that the recentering was a mass transfer that was done very early from around lead arm parallel on the backs swing to a little later if I remember correctly.  The upper body tilted a few degrees towards the target at lead arm parallel is part of the weight shift process.  Pros get the weight shift done early going back and early going forward which gives them lots of extra time that ams who fail in this area don't have.  Something like that anyway LOL.

[Hilts1969]

5 hours ago, ezpz said:

When trying to recenter like this I get my head way towards the target, DTL it looks like right shoulder over and OTT club. Is this typical, and any feels to aid this? Or maybe just try a bit more tilt away fromt arget at setup?

 

Same as when I recentre my shoulders tend to level out and I'm moving everything targetwards almost stood up. Throw in the back to the target surf move in transition and I'm too far forward. 

 

Dr Kwon has a great tip for the re centre look at the ball over the back of your lead shoulder. If your shoulders are level and/or you are too far forward the ball will be blocked out. 

 

As for the transition you keep the tilt for a fraction ie left shoulder down but you should be adding back in some forward bend lost when you extended in the backswing. This will balance out the forward movement of the body and head will stay still or move back slightly.