The Old Course 2022

[Craig loftus]

Lot of chat here in St Andrews regarding the new fees for the Old Course for 2022, going from £190 to a stiff £270. Golf in Scotland has always been available to the many and not the few and it looks like this is changing. Some bang average courses now want well over £120 for a round and dont get me started on Kings£arns, £346.....................

 

Have to get the lawn bowls out me thinks

[cardoustie]

Supply and demand, same old story

 

Folks want to play those two tracks and will pony up

 

[Pastit]

18 minutes ago, Craig loftus said:

Lot of chat here in St Andrews regarding the new fees for the Old Course for 2022, going from £190 to a stiff £270. Golf in Scotland has always been available to the many and not the few and it looks like this is changing. Some bang average courses now want well over £120 for a round and dont get me started on Kings£arns, £346.....................

 

Have to get the lawn bowls out me thinks

As a local I hope you obtain some allowance on those rates ?
 

I looked at this c 3/4 years ago and the visitor deal was about £200 for 3 days golf, post 3rd week October, with 1 day at the Old Course and 2 lesser courses provided accommodation was taken in the parish. Maybe 2022 is at a premium due to the Open.

 

But I’ve noticed the trend you mention everywhere, even for 3rd-rate courses. It maybe due to high post-Covid demand and/ or making up lost income. Cheers

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Pastit

[elwhippy]

Sheer unadulterated greed. Obviously your bank balance is more important than your skill or appreciation of a classic course. And if the OC can raise their fees than the other top tracks are going to jump their fees as well. Hope all the greens staff and other workers are getting a serious wage rise. 

[hammergolf]

14 hours ago, Craig loftus said:

Lot of chat here in St Andrews regarding the new fees for the Old Course for 2022, going from £190 to a stiff £270. Golf in Scotland has always been available to the many and not the few and it looks like this is changing. Some bang average courses now want well over £120 for a round and dont get me started on Kings£arns, £346.....................

 

Have to get the lawn bowls out me thinks

Sad, but I’m sure they’re just trying to recoup the massive losses they have taken over the last two years. They know they will sell through their inventory next year with The Open being there.

[El Gringo]

While expensive, TOC could be the most expensive course in GB&I and the punters would continue to open their wallets. The Trust has artificially kept green fees well below market value for at least 25 years. I don't like it, but the reality is golf is becoming more corporate with each passing year. The good news is there are plenty of good quality, low key GB&I courses which remain affordable....for now. 

[dcmidnight]

1 hour ago, El Gringo said:

The Trust has artificially kept green fees well below market value for at least 25 years. 

 

I think this is the reality of the situation. I think in the summer of 2018 I paid 180 pounds and it was wall to wall every day. The experience was worth twice that - absolutely no question.

 

But again with the catastrophe of the last couple years - they could double the price to visitors and would still sell out.

 

And I don't think it has anything to do with being too "corporate" - its just pure supply and demand. Golfers traveling over there - myself included - have no idea how relatively few times are available to the public every week especially during high season. Huge locals blocks in the morning, event blocks, club match blocks - its like maybe no other top course in the world in that regard.

 

Oh - and closed every Sunday.

 

Its pure supply and demand.

 

 

 

[El Gringo]

14 hours ago, dcmidnight said:

 

I think this is the reality of the situation. I think in the summer of 2018 I paid 180 pounds and it was wall to wall every day. The experience was worth twice that - absolutely no question.

 

But again with the catastrophe of the last couple years - they could double the price to visitors and would still sell out.

 

And I don't think it has anything to do with being too "corporate" - its just pure supply and demand. Golfers traveling over there - myself included - have no idea how relatively few times are available to the public every week especially during high season. Huge locals blocks in the morning, event blocks, club match blocks - its like maybe no other top course in the world in that regard.

 

Oh - and closed every Sunday.

 

Its pure supply and demand.

 

 

 

The corporate side is charging more to improve conditions/experience which leads to higher ranking and then attracts more visitors which brings in more money. The cycle repeats itself. This has been happening in GB&I for at least 30 years. Green fees are far outpacing inflation because the corporate side of golf makes it happen. I don't blame clubs for trying to increase revenue, but it does seem to come at expense of variety. Top courses are becoming more codified and less diverse which eventually negatively impacts on the experience...at least I think it does. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by El Gringo

[hammergolf]

10 hours ago, El Gringo said:

While expensive, TOC could be the most expensive course in GB&I and the punters would continue to open their wallets. The Trust has artificially kept green fees well below market value for at least 25 years. I don't like it, but the reality is golf is becoming more corporate with each passing year. The good news is there are plenty of good quality, low key GB&I courses which remain affordable....for now. 

I’m not sure what the green fees is now, but last time I played TOC a few years ago it was £130. Compared to the other top courses in the world that is an exceptional value. Just paid €250 to play Lahinch, Ballybunion, and Tralee and was happy to do it. Even at £200 TOC is fair.

[Pastit]

22 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

I’m not sure what the green fees is now, but last time I played TOC a few years ago it was £130. Compared to the other top courses in the world that is an exceptional value. Just paid €250 to play Lahinch, Ballybunion, and Tralee and was happy to do it. Even at £200 TOC is fair.

I can’t see any golf being worth £200. I think it’s absurd. 
 

Years ago, when we built Iranian warships on the River Tyne, I was asked to take an Iranian officer to the nearby links, just to walk around as we played.

 

He said to me: “ excuse me, what purpose walking around a field putting ball into holes “. Then it was £13 for 5 months winter golf - now £250.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Pastit

[Hawkeye77]

In 2018 it cost us $1280 for the foursome for The Old Course and The New Course for our times we received in the lottery in 2017.  

 

Worth every penny, IMO and the courses were busy.  

 

Don't like the prices don't play, but they'll be busy at the new rates which means that's what it is worth, IMO.

 

If I was to find out I had a tee time waiting for me at The Old Course I'd gladly show up and pay 270 pounds.  

[Pastit]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

In 2018 it cost us $1280 for the foursome for The Old Course and The New Course for our times we received in the lottery in 2017.  

 

Worth every penny, IMO and the courses were busy.  

 

Don't like the prices don't play, but they'll be busy at the new rates which means that's what it is worth, IMO.

 

If I was to find out I had a tee time waiting for me at The Old Course I'd gladly show up and pay 270 pounds.  

That policy drives local people out from their facilities. 

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Pastit said:

That policy drives local people out from their facilities. 

 

What "policy"?  Charging market rates for goods and services? And who says at the margin it is locals or only locals who are no longer playing at the higher price? 

[Pastit]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

What "policy"?  Charging market rates for goods and services? And who says at the margin it is locals or only locals who are no longer playing at the higher price? 

You’re probably unaware of the history of Scottish golf. These absurd prices are completely foreign to that history of having cheap golf for the masses.

 

These links are mostly on waste ground created by accretion of silt and sand onto public land. Applying market forces to them is a sick policy to the ordinary Scot - speaking as one of Clan Donald forced off our lands by the rich. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Pastit

[Chanceman]

When I get to travel there I will pay the price for my bucket list items - once - and then move on to the myriad of other superb courses around GB&I. Meanwhile I played Kingston Heath here on a recent charity day for A$270 (lunch included) which is about US$190 and GBP145. They seem to make a quid on that price and it is at least as good as most of the best Uk courses.

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, Pastit said:

You’re probably unaware of the history of Scottish golf. These absurd prices are completely foreign to that history of having cheap golf for the masses.

 

These links are mostly on waste ground created by accretion of silt and sand onto public land. Applying market forces to them is a sick policy to the ordinary Scot - speaking as one of Clan Donald forced off our lands by the rich. 

I'm well acquainted with both the history of golf in Scotland and Scotland in general.  

 

Without getting into the accuracy of the above, it isn't an answer to the question about whether locals at the margin are the ones who will be passing up playing The Old Course with the new fees, which are mostly felt during the busy time of year.  Price will discourage some locals, some non-Scottish residents, some folks across the oceans, all sorts of people (and others will continue to pay and play) but will the ratio of local play vs. non-local play change?  Don't see evidence of that.  

[Pastit]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I'm well acquainted with both the history of golf in Scotland and Scotland in general.  

 

Without getting into the accuracy of the above, it isn't an answer to the question about whether locals at the margin are the ones who will be passing up playing The Old Course with the new fees, which are mostly felt during the busy time of year.  Price will discourage some locals, some non-Scottish residents, some folks across the oceans, all sorts of people (and others will continue to pay and play) but will the ratio of local play vs. non-local play change?  Don't see evidence of that.  

 Of course it has the effect of all but few Scots and Borderers like me cannot use the facilities as frequently as before and probably not at all at peak times. Yet we have supported these facilities through winter for years when fewer tourists are about.

 

Scotland has suffered since 1745 from absentee landowners driving locals off the land to use it for sport ( grouse, deer & salmon fishing ) and sheep. Partly mitigated by the recent Land Reform Act. This Old Course issue is worse, because the links ground is often public, especially at St Andrew’s. If you live in a free market country, I can understand your opposing views. I’ll leave it there, enjoy your golf in the New Year.

[Hawkeye77]

28 minutes ago, Pastit said:

 Of course it has the effect of all but few Scots and Borderers like me cannot use the facilities as frequently as before and probably not at all at peak times. Yet we have supported these facilities through winter for years when fewer tourists are about.

 

Scotland has suffered since 1745 from absentee landowners driving locals off the land to use it for sport ( grouse, deer & salmon fishing ) and sheep. Partly mitigated by the recent Land Reform Act. This Old Course issue is worse, because the links ground is often public, especially at St Andrew’s. If you live in a free market country, I can understand your opposing views. I’ll leave it there, enjoy your golf in the New Year.

 

There is no "of course".  And if by "support" you mean you get to pay to pay golf in the shoulder seasons at a lower rate and enjoy it then that's your choice - not like it's a donation.  If you played consistently in the peak season and the price is no longer worth the effort or there are fewer opportunities I'm sure that wouldn't be a positive change.

 

The rest didn't and still doesn't need to be injected into the discussion - I'm certainly not going to argue with someone else's personal political views.  

 

I guess the answer to the question can wait for someone to publish what the effects are after next summer.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[dcmidnight]

1 hour ago, Pastit said:

You’re probably unaware of the history of Scottish golf.

 

Oh come on, this is a ridiculous statement for a number of reasons - your posts imply that you are the only one that knows anything about Scottish golf? In a GBI subforum? It's supply and demand. Period.

 

And you know what, I dont care how much golf cost 20 or 30 or 40 years ago - you could buy a car for $2,000 40 years ago too. How much did Pebble Beach cost 40 years ago? How much did Bandon cost 20 years ago? Something being cheaper 20 years ago doesn't mean that its not worth the money today. In a free market, a good or service is worth what someone will pay for it.

 

As far as "driving locals from their facilities" - again, thats just silly and frankly its completely inaccurate. The week I played there were three large blocks of morning times that were all set aside for locals and locals clubs / locals competitions. In the middle of high season. Heck the course is literally CLOSED just about every Sunday so the entire city can use it as a giant picnic grounds.

 

But either way, please leave your political views off of this site. Thanks.

Edited December 27, 2021 by dcmidnight

[El Gringo]

5 hours ago, hammergolf said:

I’m not sure what the green fees is now, but last time I played TOC a few years ago it was £130. Compared to the other top courses in the world that is an exceptional value. Just paid €250 to play Lahinch, Ballybunion, and Tralee and was happy to do it. Even at £200 TOC is fair.

Fairness is not at issue. The locals enjoy cheap golf which is essentially subsidized by visitors without a yearly links ticket. Everything is above board as per the Links Trust as established by Parliament. My point is what does high green fees achieve in golf? I think at some point we are going back to have and have nots. That isn't the picture I paint when I think of ideal golf. 

[El Gringo]

On 12/27/2021 at 11:42 AM, dcmidnight said:

 

I think this is the reality of the situation. I think in the summer of 2018 I paid 180 pounds and it was wall to wall every day. The experience was worth twice that - absolutely no question.

 

But again with the catastrophe of the last couple years - they could double the price to visitors and would still sell out.

 

And I don't think it has anything to do with being too "corporate" - its just pure supply and demand. Golfers traveling over there - myself included - have no idea how relatively few times are available to the public every week especially during high season. Huge locals blocks in the morning, event blocks, club match blocks - its like maybe no other top course in the world in that regard.

 

Oh - and closed every Sunday.

 

Its pure supply and demand.

 

 

 

Charging a green fee based on supply and demand is corporate behaviour...no?

Edited December 28, 2021 by El Gringo

[dpark]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

In 2018 it cost us $1280 for the foursome for The Old Course and The New Course for our times we received in the lottery in 2017.  

 

Worth every penny, IMO and the courses were busy.  

 

Don't like the prices don't play, but they'll be busy at the new rates which means that's what it is worth, IMO.

 

If I was to find out I had a tee time waiting for me at The Old Course I'd gladly show up and pay 270 pounds.  

 

The Old Course is a bucket list destination and there is no lack of takers. Same with Pebble Beach. Pay the piper or don't play the course.

 

I think TOC was great and have played it 2x. But I also paid way less than 270 GBP. I would not play it a third time for that price. Lots of other courses in GB&I that are great to play for way less.

 

 

[philsRHman]

I said this a few times during my planning, during my trip, and after I got home. Knowing how much time is set aside for locals (literally TOC is included in their annual ticket), I can’t bat an eye at raising the price. I thought 200£ this year was as big a value of any of the 20ish courses I played in Scotland. And the Links Trust watches as tourists ante up multiple times more for tour operators. And Kingsbarns has no trouble filling their tee sheet at nearly double the price. And new super high price courses spring up in East Lothian, Aberdeen, etc. The Old Course has a lot of room to the north before it’s even close to market value, likely double if we are being honest. And that’s only factoring Scottish golf, not even comparing it to Pebble, any of the comparable privates, big American resorts like Whistling Straights, etc. 

 

 

Let them use The Old to subsidize local and tourist golf on all the others, where you can get the price around 50£ and lower on one of their tickets. 

[Pastit]

11 hours ago, dcmidnight said:

 

Oh come on, this is a ridiculous statement for a number of reasons - your posts imply that you are the only one that knows anything about Scottish golf? In a GBI subforum? It's supply and demand. Period.

 

And you know what, I dont care how much golf cost 20 or 30 or 40 years ago - you could buy a car for $2,000 40 years ago too. How much did Pebble Beach cost 40 years ago? How much did Bandon cost 20 years ago? Something being cheaper 20 years ago doesn't mean that its not worth the money today. In a free market, a good or service is worth what someone will pay for it.

 

As far as "driving locals from their facilities" - again, thats just silly and frankly its completely inaccurate. The week I played there were three large blocks of morning times that were all set aside for locals and locals clubs / locals competitions. In the middle of high season. Heck the course is literally CLOSED just about every Sunday so the entire city can use it as a giant picnic grounds.

 

But either way, please leave your political views off of this site. Thanks.

Factual history is not a political view. Nor is local access to sporting facilities in Scotland being restricted by the rich confined to golf. EG locals cannot usually access salmon rivers running past their doors for sport, save where there are enlightened river owners and there are some. Canada and Norway have more enlightened policies - fact.

 

The burning of an oil-sheikh’s yacht in the Kyle of Sutherland and poisoning of rivers there by locals clearly demonstrates local feeling.

 

Further, I don’t like to see visitors being ripped-off either.  I’ll end there. Think and state what you wish. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Pastit

[dcmidnight]

Of course factual history can be political - I could name a dozen examples in the last 12 months alone.

 

Enough, please. I think we have taken this topic far enough off track, lets get back on topic.

Edited December 28, 2021 by dcmidnight

[dcmidnight]

7 hours ago, philsRHman said:

The Old Course has a lot of room to the north before it’s even close to market value, likely double if we are being honest.

 

I think it might be even higher. 

 

One way to look at it - ask yourself what Pebble would cost if the number of tee times was drastically reduced. What if they were closed every Sunday - and 2-3 other days of the week the first half of the day was blocked off for local play of some kind. And then there were other smaller blocks throughout the remaining six days for matches.

 

I've played both and I would chose TOC 10 times out of 10 - and its not even close.

[dcmidnight]

I have asked nicely. No one is censoring your opinions.

 

This forum has had a longstanding rule of NO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS. Period, end of story, zero tolerance policy.

 

If you dont like that or dont want to abide by it - please feel free to post on another website.

Edited December 28, 2021 by GwrxMod

[Santiago Golf]

There are three facts to keep in mind

 

1) Very little US travel to Scotland in 2020 & 2021 ... equals rounds down

 

2) Open Championship this year ... so at 3 weeks of no rounds to prep the course

 

3) The Green Fees help make the course affordable to the locals 

When I went to St. Andrew for Study back in 2018 ... it was like 500 pounds to be a member ... free golf on all course (including the Old Course) 

 

 

[hammergolf]

18 hours ago, Pastit said:

I can’t see any golf being worth £200. I think it’s absurd. 
 

Years ago, when we built Iranian warships on the River Tyne, I was asked to take an Iranian officer to the nearby links, just to walk around as we played.

 

He said to me: “ excuse me, what purpose walking around a field putting ball into holes “. Then it was £13 for 5 months winter golf - now £250.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. While my home course is a great value, I enjoy traveling and playing the great courses in the US and other countries. I’ve made this point before that in my opinion some courses like Pebble Beach are priced at what I feel is ridiculous ($450), but I don’t feel $250 is unreasonable for some courses.

[hammergolf]

18 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

In 2018 it cost us $1280 for the foursome for The Old Course and The New Course for our times we received in the lottery in 2017.  

 

Worth every penny, IMO and the courses were busy.  

 

Don't like the prices don't play, but they'll be busy at the new rates which means that's what it is worth, IMO.

 

If I was to find out I had a tee time waiting for me at The Old Course I'd gladly show up and pay 270 pounds.  

100% agree