What would you change about my workout routine?

[NevinW]

I'm 66 and I underwent meniscus surgery in July.  After PT I've decided to continue the weight lifting and had the Physical Therapist (not a golfer) start me on a routine. I've not been a weight lifting enthusiast in the past so I am a beginner.  I've probably done about 18 sessions so far and have increased weight and reps about every other session. I've stuck with machines to avoid injury (a priority).   I've also lost weight from 194 to 180 so far and have been playing as much golf as the weather allows along with hitting balls in a simulator 1-2 times per week.  However, my max swing speed is 92-93 mph these days and it has not really increased.  I'd REALLY like to increase that by golf season.  It used to be > 100 5-7 years ago.  

 

What I would like to know is whether the routine I am doing is headed in the right track to increase swing speed or should I be adding some exercises?  Are there any I shouldn't be doing?   More weight and less reps, or the opposite?  Thoughts and recommendations?

 

Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 9:14 AM

Bicep Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 55 lb × 12
Set 2: 55 lb × 9

Crunch (Machine)
Set 1: 105 lb × 12
Set 2: 110 lb × 12

Lateral Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12

Front Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12
Set 2: 8 lb × 12

Leg Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 70 lb × 12
Set 2: 70 lb × 12

Leg Press
Set 1: 120 lb × 12
Set 2: 120 lb × 12

Seated Leg Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 67 lb × 12
Set 2: 67 lb × 12

Calf Press on Seated Leg Press
Set 1: 100 lb × 12
Set 2: 100 lb × 12

Triceps Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 85 lb × 12
Set 2: 85 lb × 12

 

Torso Rotation (Machine)
Set 1: 110 lb × 12 each side

Back Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 80 lb × 12

Cycling
Set 1: 2 mi | 10:20
 

[hammersia]

As a beginner, as long as you’re progressing weight and or reps, keeps doing what you’re doing. You might be able to progress for a year or so without making any changes.

 

Swing speed training is specific and different (loads of threads) and you should be doing it in addition to the gym. 

[bluedot]

I would STRONGLY advise you to either continue to do what you are doing, OR get with a PT or fitness trainer who designs golf-specific workouts.  Golf specific workouts are NOT a DIY project, IMO.

 

The workouts you are doing are great for general fitness and resistance training, and probably for at least some degree of injury prevention.  However, most of what you do has little to do with the golf swing, and most of what is done in a golf specific workout is completely different than what you are doing. 

 

For instance, I don't think many, if any, golf specific workouts are going to use machines at all.  Don't be bothered by that or scared of free weights; the amount of weight used in a golf workout just doesn't need to be very high.  Also, there is going to be a large amount of both rotation and anti-rotation work in a golf workout, a large use of cable pulls and medicine/slam balls, all aimed at increasing mobility.  At your age (our age; I'm 69) I think you'd find the mobility work, especially on your hips, to be perhaps the most valuable thing you could do for your golf swing.

 

Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the workouts you are doing, and depending on what you were like before you started, there could be a bit of spillover into your golf swing, though not much.  It's sort of like running; great for fitness, weight control, stamina, etc; has little or nothing to do with improving your golf swing.

[milesgiles]

not a huge fan of that sort of workout, either from a fitness or golf point of view.

 

If you can do a leg press, you can do a bodyweight squat. Then you can learn good squat form  with a near empty bar. Plus some other compounds. There is so much good info out there I dont even really think you need a pt to show you how. Many of them don't know anyway.

 

I squat, stiff legged deadlift, bench and chin, plus a rotational ab exercise, couple of times a week out the gym in half an hour. Not breaking any strength records but not trying to. 

 

Honestly I think youll enjoy the challenge more. You'll definitely get far better results if done correctly. Machines are not necessarily safer, they can lock you into a range of motion that isnt suitable for your structure. 

[bluedot]

I'll say this again, in the hopes of being clear.  For MOST purposes, the workouts you are doing are 100% fine, and will likely add to your health, both mental and physical, and perhaps your longevity as well.  Machines are in every gym, and very popular, for good reason, and there is NOTHING wrong with a machine-based workout, especially if you haven't been a fan of working out over the years.

 

BUT for the most part, the workout you are doing won't spill over much, if at all, to your golf swing, except very indirectly.  Depending on where you are physically, you might develop some strength and stamina, and you might become less likely to be injured.  But you won't really become more mobile, which is a HUGE issue for older golfers, and you likely won't see any increases in swing speed.

 

There are some ways that you can move away from machines to more of a free weight approach, too.  For instance, you can use a trap bar instead of a barbell for deadlifts, and almost every gym is going to have a Smith machine for squats that you could use at first to get used to not being on a machine.  The gains from using free weights vs machines, even for the same basic lift, are well-documented and pretty dramatic.

 

But even if you stay with the machines, there is a ton of golf specific stuff that you could add.  There are various cable pulls and medicine ball exercises that are part of golf-specific routines and completely safe and light weight.  You could also add stuff where you are doing kettlebell swings, suitcase carry stuff, and the like for stability while moving.  And perhaps most importantly, you can add floor exercises with NO weights or machines to add flexibility and mobility (pails and rails, 90-90, T-spine openers, Spiderman lunges, and so on, that would really make a difference to your golf swing, IMO.

 

But above all else, keep working out, whatever the workout is, two or three times a week!  It will become addictive and as important to you as the golf itself if you're like most people.  Just be clear in your own mind about what you want from the workouts; if it's better golf, that's a different workout.  Not harder, not more dangerous, or more time-consuming; just different.

[phizzy30]

Strength training doesn't have as much of an impact on increasing ss as most people think it does.  It's mainly used to decrease the chances of injury for all sports including golf.  That being said, it should not be ignored either when training for golf.  In order to add speed, you must also incorporate over speed training, increase flexibility and also perform explosive movements aka plyometrics in your routine as well. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by phizzy30

[phizzy30]

In terms of reps and weight, I train all my clients to work all rep ranges with the exception of a couple of my elderly clients.  It never hurts be as strong as possible and stimulate all the different types of muscle fiber in your body. 

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Strength training doesn't have as much of an impact on increasing ss as most people think it does.  It's mainly used to decrease the chances of injury for all sports including golf.  That being said, it should not be ignored either when training for golf.  In order to add speed, you must also incorporate over speed training, increase flexibility and also perform explosive movements aka plyometrics in your routine as well. 

 

 

show me the evidence that overspeed training does anything. Ive asked on here a dozen or more times and no one has been able to link me to a study that shows it is effective 

[phizzy30]

Just now, milesgiles said:

 

 

show me the evidence that overspeed training does anything. Ive asked on here a dozen or more times and no one has been able to link me to a study that shows it is effective 

Ask the 1000's of pro athletes that do not only for golf but other sports in general if over speed training works.  I'm sure that Pubmed has published articles on this.  I can also tell you that my hips rotate faster and I can swing my arms faster as well when I do plyometrics at the gym and use the speed stix at home.  Have ever even tried over speed training or do you troll around the forum looking to pick fights? 

Edited January 7, 2022 by phizzy30

[DaveMc82]

I would see a PT and get them to structure a workout for you. I’d echo reservations about machines as they have to be adjusted to you and that will almost always still not be perfect. 
 

The thing is that a proper instructor will prescribe movements based around your physical limitations both with injuries and mobility. 
 

I could reel off a load of movements that suit me yet could land you up injured or worse. 24” box jumps were on the menu tonight as well as deadlifts, hip thrusters and medicine ball sit-ups. After your surgery I’d be scared of seeing you do a 3” box jump. 

[phizzy30]

Just now, DaveMc82 said:

I would see a PT and get them to structure a workout for you. I’d echo reservations about machines as they have to be adjusted to you and that will almost always still not be perfect. 
 

The thing is that a proper instructor will prescribe movements based around your physical limitations both with injuries and mobility. 
 

I could reel off a load of movements that suit me yet could land you up injured or worse. 24” box jumps were on the menu tonight as well as deadlifts, hip thrusters and medicine ball sit-ups. After your surgery I’d be scared of seeing you do a 3” box jump. 

Agree.  Having worked in the industry for a long time, I would be weary as many personal trainers ignore working around their clients injuries and limitations or they simply lack the knowledge to do so. 

[BB28403]

Just keep at the basics till you are stronger.  Even skip Swing Speed Training, its too much stress on a less that 80% ideal body or more.

 

Those speed sticks work really well, but they require quite a bit of muscle and fitness not to injure something, IMO

[milesgiles]

9 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Ask the 1000's of pro athletes that do not only for golf but other sports in general if over speed training works.  I'm sure that Pubmed has published articles on this.  I can also tell you that my hips rotate faster and I can swing my arms faster as well when I do plyometrics at the gym and use the speed stix at home.  Have ever even tried over speed training or do you troll around the forum looking to pick fights? 

 

its not about picking fights. Its about asking legitimate questions concerning scientific method, which Im sure you believe in.

 

Anecdotal evidence that overspeed works isnt the same thing. Plenty of athletes wear lucky underpants. Is that scientific?

Edited January 8, 2022 by milesgiles

[Hawkeye77]

Seven years ago you were 59, although it sounds like you may be in better shape now than you were then.  You should pursue whatever exercise routine makes you feel good and is good for your recovery.  Whether purely using machines is better to prevent injury I'm not qualified to comment on other than to say are you talking about injury during workout vs. long term prevention of injury in general?  Lots of info out there on the benefits of workouts with free weights, resistance bands, etc. vs. machines for increased and long term stability and injury prevention while active -- I spend a lot of time reading up on it while "lifting" cups of coffee in the wee hours like I am this morning, but that's as far as I get.

 

I almost never see anyone gaining swing speed just by lifting in the threads I look at from time to time (idle curiosity, gyms make me break out in a rash - I went the lose 20+ pounds by getting COVID route last spring, not-lol, have kept it off but still need to come up with something to work on muscle tone) -- I see some folks benefiting from some speed work (tennis elbow surgery two years ago has me reticent to try that) and many benefiting from their golf swings simply getting more efficient.

 

Enjoy the workouts, in whatever form, they'll be good for your overall health and longevity and probably have some impact on stamina and consistency with your swing but I'd look into whether that kind of regimen is really going to do much just on the speed aspect and flexibility overall.

[bluedot]

13 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Ask the 1000's of pro athletes that do not only for golf but other sports in general if over speed training works.  I'm sure that Pubmed has published articles on this.  I can also tell you that my hips rotate faster and I can swing my arms faster as well when I do plyometrics at the gym and use the speed stix at home.  Have ever even tried over speed training or do you troll around the forum looking to pick fights? 

You're wasting your time; Milesgiles has written that post many, many times and just isn't interested in hearing anything to the contrary.

 

You are, of course, 100% correct; athletes in many sports, perhaps most notably track and field, have been using overspeed training for decades, and there is literature about the results, which I've provided links to here on other threads.  Overspeed is relatively new to golf, as are golf-specific workouts in general, but the bottom line is that either golf is different from other sports that involve explosive movements, or it isn't.  The human body WILL respond to overspeed work under the right conditions, and there are mountains of evidence to support that.

 

Here's the thing, though.  For overspeed training to work, and to work SAFELY, the golfer has to already be strong, flexible, mobile, and have solid technique.  If any of those are absent, then overspeed either won't work, or poses an injury risk, or both.  I think the accepted number is that at least 75% of amateur golfers fall into the category of overspeed either not working or posing an injury risk.  I was one of those, despite many months of following a pretty regimented and regular overspeed protocol. 

 

But it would be absolutely absurd to say that overspeed doesn't work, or that there is no scientific data to support overspeed being effective under the right conditions.  For the OP, though, given his age and previous injury and workout history, the likelihood is high that he can benefit more from other modifications to his workout routine; if overspeed is going to work FOR HIM, it's probably down the road yet.

[milesgiles]

35 minutes ago, bluedot said:

You're wasting your time; Milesgiles has written that post many, many times and just isn't interested in hearing anything to the contrary.

 

You are, of course, 100% correct; athletes in many sports, perhaps most notably track and field, have been using overspeed training for decades, and there is literature about the results, which I've provided links to here on other threads.  Overspeed is relatively new to golf, as are golf-specific workouts in general, but the bottom line is that either golf is different from other sports that involve explosive movements, or it isn't.  The human body WILL respond to overspeed work under the right conditions, and there are mountains of evidence to support that.

 

Here's the thing, though.  For overspeed training to work, and to work SAFELY, the golfer has to already be strong, flexible, mobile, and have solid technique.  If any of those are absent, then overspeed either won't work, or poses an injury risk, or both.  I think the accepted number is that at least 75% of amateur golfers fall into the category of overspeed either not working or posing an injury risk.  I was one of those, despite many months of following a pretty regimented and regular overspeed protocol. 

 

But it would be absolutely absurd to say that overspeed doesn't work, or that there is no scientific data to support overspeed being effective under the right conditions.  For the OP, though, given his age and previous injury and workout history, the likelihood is high that he can benefit more from other modifications to his workout routine; if overspeed is going to work FOR HIM, it's probably down the road yet.

 

Im not trying to get into an e fight over this

 

but when I have been linked to a study, it hasnt shown at all what people are saying. I havent ever said 'it doesnt work', I have only ever said there isnt the evidence there, which isnt the same thing at all. Down the line, I will try it and report back. 

[miamistomp]

  It won't be popular, but I agree with Miles on the surface--i

  The exception would be if you can seriously train with a coach who is familiar with overspeed and has proper equipment to monitor progress and potential injury- It will be expensive and time consuming

 

I grew up in the gym ( my Dad had one ) and have trained with Olympic medalists in several sports and many pro wrestlers ( Dad had a martial arts gym and was black belt in Judo back when it had to certified from Japan)

 

That bull crap out of the way- that workout might make you a bit healthier and stronger- but will do nothing for golf

 

You really should be doing mostly , free flowing compound exercises at your age

 

Medicine ball, bands , light kettle bell  and yoga type stretching and balance work

 

Swing a weighted club, towel drills , and fast smooth swings with something like the orange whip

 

Also walk at at least 3 miles a day with an overdistance day  and some interval minute bursts

 

Including the stretching you need at least 1/2 hour every day 

 

Days you play golf - just stretch if you walk the course-if you use a cart- you still need to workout

 

All of this can be done at home- I haven't been in a gym in nearly 2 years

 

Hitting the center of the golf club face will get you better results than all the speed training you could ever do at your age

 

Yes - this is a time and energy commitment--and that is where most people give up and just buy  the newest CallaMadepinga driver

 

Hope this helps and sorry for the rant

 

I am almost 70 an here is a recent picture- same 6'1" 180 -I was as a track athlete in high school=Tso I practice what I preach

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by miamistomp

[Unplayablelies]

Looks like a lot of isolation exercises . Id go with more compound movements depending on your ability…..squats, deadlifts, beach press, push ups etc. Don’t forget flexibility

[bluedot]

36 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Im not trying to get into an e fight over this

 

but when I have been linked to a study, it hasnt shown at all what people are saying. I havent ever said 'it doesnt work', I have only ever said there isnt the evidence there, which isnt the same thing at all. Down the line, I will try it and report back. 

Go back to Chris Finn's meta paper, then go to the bibliography he provides, then read the research for yourself.  It is abundant and clear.  Or, you could take Chris's own research, which covers hundreds of amateur and professional golfers, at face value. 

 

I won't get into a "fight" about this, but you need to quit saying that there is no evidence that overspeed training works in golf.  Whether or not it will work for a particular golfer (best estimate is maybe 25%) is nuanced and very individualized, and when it does work, it works best in very different protocols than the companies who sell sticks want you to use, but for the right golfer (which, again, I am NOT!) it DOES work, sometimes spectacularly.  The data is clear.

[Nard_S]

Work the core & legs. You can do abs everyday. Don't need to rest on that. Do routines that force dynamic balance  to do them. Free weights, cable machines, floor routines. Leverage against body weight.  Don't agree it won't help golf. I gained 15 yards one year just doing that stuff 3X a week. Bicep curls & bench press does very little, may even slow you down. Arm & shoulder routines that work small muscles a plus. Hand strength a plus. Every square inch of back from neck to glute a plus. Legs are the most arduous to see gains. Do interval & heavy strength too. Elliptical machines & out door track on dirt is excellent. Rowing machines are great for upper back scapula development , another plus. To speed train or not who knows, get fit first though. That takes 4-6 months.

[milesgiles]

8 hours ago, bluedot said:

Go back to Chris Finn's meta paper, then go to the bibliography he provides, then read the research for yourself.  It is abundant and clear.  Or, you could take Chris's own research, which covers hundreds of amateur and professional golfers, at face value. 

 

I won't get into a "fight" about this, but you need to quit saying that there is no evidence that overspeed training works in golf.  Whether or not it will work for a particular golfer (best estimate is maybe 25%) is nuanced and very individualized, and when it does work, it works best in very different protocols than the companies who sell sticks want you to use, but for the right golfer (which, again, I am NOT!) it DOES work, sometimes spectacularly.  The data is clear.

 

if it was the meta paper that was linked before, there was nothing in it to support overspeed. You can't just tell me 'its there' and not tell me where Im supposed to be looking. 

[bluedot]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

if it was the meta paper that was linked before, there was nothing in it to support overspeed. You can't just tell me 'its there' and not tell me where Im supposed to be looking. 

Chris Finn provides hard data from his own work with hundreds of golfers at one most respected practices in the country.  Beyond that, he has an extensive bibliography of research findings that you apparently refuse to utilize. You can’t refuse to read, and then claim it doesn’t exist.
 

That’s on you.

 

This is yet another threadjack that I won’t participate in any longer. The OP asked a valid and serious question, and I regret my part in derailing the thread from valid and serious answers.

Edited January 9, 2022 by bluedot

[Shushwap]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:33 AM, NevinW said:

I'm 66 and I underwent meniscus surgery in July.  After PT I've decided to continue the weight lifting and had the Physical Therapist (not a golfer) start me on a routine. I've not been a weight lifting enthusiast in the past so I am a beginner.  I've probably done about 18 sessions so far and have increased weight and reps about every other session. I've stuck with machines to avoid injury (a priority).   I've also lost weight from 194 to 180 so far and have been playing as much golf as the weather allows along with hitting balls in a simulator 1-2 times per week.  However, my max swing speed is 92-93 mph these days and it has not really increased.  I'd REALLY like to increase that by golf season.  It used to be > 100 5-7 years ago.  

 

What I would like to know is whether the routine I am doing is headed in the right track to increase swing speed or should I be adding some exercises?  Are there any I shouldn't be doing?   More weight and less reps, or the opposite?  Thoughts and recommendations?

 

Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 9:14 AM

Bicep Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 55 lb × 12
Set 2: 55 lb × 9

Crunch (Machine)
Set 1: 105 lb × 12
Set 2: 110 lb × 12

Lateral Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12

Front Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12
Set 2: 8 lb × 12

Leg Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 70 lb × 12
Set 2: 70 lb × 12

Leg Press
Set 1: 120 lb × 12
Set 2: 120 lb × 12

Seated Leg Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 67 lb × 12
Set 2: 67 lb × 12

Calf Press on Seated Leg Press
Set 1: 100 lb × 12
Set 2: 100 lb × 12

Triceps Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 85 lb × 12
Set 2: 85 lb × 12

 

Torso Rotation (Machine)
Set 1: 110 lb × 12 each side

Back Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 80 lb × 12

Cycling
Set 1: 2 mi | 10:20
 

Have a look at the fit for golf app.. Flexibility is so over looked especially as we age 

[Haroputt]

Been doing the  squat and pulling exercise 

Also with the info about GRF  being so important. I work my legs as much as my core. Do sprints backwards and in a circle.  Hopping exercises. Then do some sequencing drills involve my arms and core and legs together.  I’m not that muscular I rely on my flexibility and strength my  extension back and arm muscles more than the flexors 

[milesgiles]

4 hours ago, bluedot said:

Chris Finn provides hard data from his own work with hundreds of golfers at one most respected practices in the country.  Beyond that, he has an extensive bibliography of research findings that you apparently refuse to utilize. You can’t refuse to read, and then claim it doesn’t exist.
 

That’s on you.

 

This is yet another threadjack that I won’t participate in any longer. The OP asked a valid and serious question, and I regret my part in derailing the thread from valid and serious answers.

 

there was no study in that meta paper, end of. I read all of it. No, I didnt look through the bibliography and Im not going to. If it exists, goodness knows why it is so hard to copy and paste it directly here. 

[SirFuego]

IMO, initially focusing on just strength is not a bad thing.  In fact, it might be the most prudent thing to do when starting out.  While it is true that to be explosive (fast), you need to train explosively.  However, you do need a strength base to safely handle those explosive moves.  If you train explosively before you are strong or mobile enough, that could lead to injury.  Younger folks might be able to get away with it, but the older you get, the more cautious you probably should be about incorporating explosiveness into your route.  I'd rather err on the strength side from a quality of life point of view.  Besides, "beginner gains" tend to translate across the board, so at least to start, you probably will start seeing benefits to your golf game (increased speed and/or better endurance) even if you don't initially do things "by the book".

 

That said, I would perhaps add some sort of upper body press (some variation of bench press and/or overhead press) and upper body pull (lat pull down, dumbbell rows).  If time is a concern,  I would do those instead of the bicep curls and tricep extensions.

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by SirFuego

[NevinW]

Thank for all of the comments and suggestions.  I've been looking at the Fit for Golf website. I'll probably download the app.  I just went to the gym and I have started to transition some of the exercises from the machines to free weights.  It is harder and I have to decrease the weights to get it done.  

[bluedot]

1 hour ago, NevinW said:

Thank for all of the comments and suggestions.  I've been looking at the Fit for Golf website. I'll probably download the app.  I just went to the gym and I have started to transition some of the exercises from the machines to free weights.  It is harder and I have to decrease the weights to get it done.  

Here is the best study available on overspeed training for golf.  It's a good read.

 

https://simplifaster.com/articles/overspeed-training-beyond-maximal-velocity/

[golfarb1]

NevinW

Get  the book “ golf biomechanic”by Paul Chek and use a trainer to help implement some of the golf oriented exercises shown in this book . 

[solarbear88]

I think you'd get a lot more out of a kettlebell.  Simply they are explosive, work your stabilisers (core) and are much more time effective. Could start by doing swings and add exercises from there.