What would you change about my workout routine?

[getitdaily]

On 1/7/2022 at 5:58 PM, milesgiles said:

 

 

show me the evidence that overspeed training does anything. Ive asked on here a dozen or more times and no one has been able to link me to a study that shows it is effective 

This is probably as good as you're going to get. Just not much in the way of formally published, controlled studies specific to golf. 

 

https://simplifaster.com/articles/overspeed-training-beyond-maximal-velocity/

[mgoblue83]

On 1/8/2022 at 8:57 AM, milesgiles said:

 

Im not trying to get into an e fight over this

 

but when I have been linked to a study, it hasnt shown at all what people are saying. I havent ever said 'it doesnt work', I have only ever said there isnt the evidence there, which isnt the same thing at all. Down the line, I will try it and report back. 

 

 

When you say there isn't any evidence you are implying that it doesn't work.

 

Why are you constantly questioning the benefits of it when it has made a huge difference for so many people?

 

Reminds me of a buddy who borrowed my sticks for a few weeks and have them back saying they didn't help at all. Come to find out he used them once a week as a warm-up before hitting balls and never even followed the beginner protocol. 

[milesgiles]

9 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

 

When you say there isn't any evidence you are implying that it doesn't work.

 

Why are you constantly questioning the benefits of it when it has made a huge difference for so many people?

 

Reminds me of a buddy who borrowed my sticks for a few weeks and have them back saying they didn't help at all. Come to find out he used them once a week as a warm-up before hitting balls and never even followed the beginner protocol. 

 

Ive put on 28 yards and 13mph JUST swinging a driver, in about 10 weeks,  very much in line with what others are reporting with speed sticks. So while its not scientific, anecdotally Id consider that evidence that they are unnecessary.

 

On the other hand, when I feel I cant get any faster doing what Im doing, I may try overspeed, and if I then improve I will consider that good evidence of their efficacy, even though it will still just be anecdotal.

 

 

[bluedot]

 

 

"...we have completed two randomized in-house clinical trials at Par4Success, lasting six and eight weeks respectively, and seven years of clinical and strength and conditioning work with thousands of golfers longitudinally at this point."

Chris Finn

 

This isn't "ancecdotal" at all; this facility, like many, many others in the field, does a very extensive assessment of each individual to determine whether or not overspeed training is going to be safe and effective for them.  It is NOT appropriate for most amateur weekend golfers, simply because their bodies aren't properly conditioned to go faster; other "issues" have to be addressed first.  But that does NOT mean that overspeed training doesn't work; the research shows that it is an absolute game changer for certain golfers.

 

And there is an additional question with overspeed, which is whether or not the swing speed gains translate to the golf course; this is largely dependent on technique and mobility of the individual.  I'm a great example; I can get an additional +/- 5-8 mph from overspeed work, but I simply can't control it on the golf course because my hips at age 69 aren't capable of moving quickly enough, despite 2+ years of HARD (and supervised!) work on hip mobility.  The additional 15-20 yards off the tee would be solid gold to me, but the price is I'm in the next fairway to the right.  Or the trees.  Or a pond.  Or the road...

 

So I do a set of 20 swings three times a week as part of my regular golf workouts, with the goal of just keeping the speed I have left at this point; 5 each way with the "step-stomp", and 5 each way "normal" but as fast as I can, and I do several fast swings as part of my warmup before I play.  But NEVER as part of my preshot routine like Bryson does; I'm not him.  I wish I was part of the 5% or so that could really benefit from overspeed, but I'm just not. 

 

But it would be really, REALLY silly for me to say that it doesn't work, OR that there is no data to support the fact that it works. 

 

 

 

Overspeed training for golf is NOT the use of three sticks with protocols prescribed from the manufacturer/seller of those sticks.  There is data from multiple sports, including golf, that the gains that are available (IF there are gains to be had for a particular golfer!) are going to the pretty much the same in low volume vs. high volume reps, AND that using something of "normal" weight works best. 

 

So if an individual is using their own driver as their training device to train their body to swing faster, that IS overspeed training, even if self-taught.  In fact, as you can see in the video, using your own driver in MUCH lower volumes than the people selling three sticks recommend is not only just as good, but MUCH safer.

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, bluedot said:

 

 

"...we have completed two randomized in-house clinical trials at Par4Success, lasting six and eight weeks respectively, and seven years of clinical and strength and conditioning work with thousands of golfers longitudinally at this point."

Chris Finn

 

This isn't "ancecdotal" at all; this facility, like many, many others in the field, does a very extensive assessment of each individual to determine whether or not overspeed training is going to be safe and effective for them.  It is NOT appropriate for most amateur weekend golfers, simply because their bodies aren't properly conditioned to go faster; other "issues" have to be addressed first.  But that does NOT mean that overspeed training doesn't work; the research shows that it is an absolute game changer for certain golfers.

 

And there is an additional question with overspeed, which is whether or not the swing speed gains translate to the golf course; this is largely dependent on technique and mobility of the individual.  I'm a great example; I can get an additional +/- 5-8 mph from overspeed work, but I simply can't control it on the golf course because my hips at age 69 aren't capable of moving quickly enough, despite 2+ years of HARD (and supervised!) work on hip mobility.  The additional 15-20 yards off the tee would be solid gold to me, but the price is I'm in the next fairway to the right.  Or the trees.  Or a pond.  Or the road...

 

So I do a set of 20 swings three times a week as part of my regular golf workouts, with the goal of just keeping the speed I have left at this point; 5 each way with the "step-stomp", and 5 each way "normal" but as fast as I can, and I do several fast swings as part of my warmup before I play.  But NEVER as part of my preshot routine like Bryson does; I'm not him.  I wish I was part of the 5% or so that could really benefit from overspeed, but I'm just not. 

 

But it would be really, REALLY silly for me to say that it doesn't work, OR that there is no data to support the fact that it works. 

 

 

 

Overspeed training for golf is NOT the use of three sticks with protocols prescribed from the manufacturer/seller of those sticks.  There is data from multiple sports, including golf, that the gains that are available (IF there are gains to be had for a particular golfer!) are going to the pretty much the same in low volume vs. high volume reps, AND that using something of "normal" weight works best. 

 

So if an individual is using their own driver as their training device to train their body to swing faster, that IS overspeed training, even if self-taught.  In fact, as you can see in the video, using your own driver in MUCH lower volumes than the people selling three sticks recommend is not only just as good, but MUCH safer.

 

 

"Overspeed training refers to the use of the environment or artificial stimulus to create a velocity that the athlete cannot naturally attain on their own."

 

source: https://www.brattainsportsperformance.com/blog/overspeed-training-what-why-when-how

 

ie not just swinging hard with a normal weight driver.. 

 

you now seem to be agreeing with me that any version of these sticks is not necessarily optimal? As for these studies.. where are they? Are they published and peer reviewed, like any other creditable study?

[bluedot]

49 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

"Overspeed training refers to the use of the environment or artificial stimulus to create a velocity that the athlete cannot naturally attain on their own."

 

source: https://www.brattainsportsperformance.com/blog/overspeed-training-what-why-when-how

 

ie not just swinging hard with a normal weight driver.. 

 

you now seem to be agreeing with me that any version of these sticks is not necessarily optimal? As for these studies.. where are they? Are they published and peer reviewed, like any other creditable study?

I have NEVER advocated the use of the three stick system on this or any other thread; in fact, I’ve repeatedly written quite the opposite. The low volume use of a single club or bat or javelin or whatever, that is approximately the same weight as the one used in competition is indicated by the research in multiple sports, including golf, and I’ve said that over and over and over.  You simply do not read carefully.

 

You seem to believe that “overspeed” means three sticks and high volume reps; it doesn’t, and neither I nor anybody else, except SSG, has said that it does.  Repeatedly, I have urged others NOT to use protocols from people that sell multiple stick “systems” and give away protocols; their profit margin depends on the sticks, and there is ZERO evidence that their protocols are any better, and a LOT of evidence that injury is a potential problem due to the volume of max speed reps in their workouts.

 

I don’t know where you learned the term “peer reviewed” but you do seem to love it dearly. Keep demanding that, whatever you think it means.  Meanwhile, you continue to write that there is no credible evidence that overspeed training works while you write that YOU have gained nearly 30 yards in 10 weeks using the exact “protocol” that Chris Finnand others recommend!

 

One question: Has your 28 yard gain in 10 weeks using one stick been peer reviewed, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

Edited January 12, 2022 by bluedot

[Barfolomew]

1 or 2 sets aint no good!  Just ask Joe Weider or Arnold

 

Do at least 3 sets.... You gotta do a light weight warm up set, you can't go straight in.... specially at 66. 

 

So add that to your routine...

[milesgiles]

32 minutes ago, bluedot said:

I have NEVER advocated the use of the three stick system on this or any other thread; in fact, I’ve repeatedly written quite the opposite. The low volume use of a single club or bat or javelin or whatever, that is approximately the same weight as the one used in competition is indicated by the research in multiple sports, including golf, and I’ve said that over and over and over.  You simply do not read carefully.

 

You seem to believe that “overspeed” means three sticks and high volume reps; it doesn’t, and neither I nor anybody else, except SSG, has said that it does.  Repeatedly, I have urged others NOT to use protocols from people that sell multiple stick “systems” and give away protocols; their profit margin depends on the sticks, and there is ZERO evidence that their protocols are any better, and a LOT of evidence that injury is a potential problem due to the volume of max speed reps in their workouts.

 

I don’t know where you learned the term “peer reviewed” but you do seem to love it dearly. Keep demanding that, whatever you think it means.  Meanwhile, you continue to write that there is no credible evidence that overspeed training works while you write that YOU have gained nearly 30 yards in 10 weeks using the exact “protocol” that Chris Finnand others recommend!

 

One question: Has your 28 yard gain in 10 weeks using one stick been peer reviewed, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

 

 

Ive given you the definition of 'overspeed', as used in many sports, and you are now making up your own (incorrect) definition..

 

The correct definiton is the only one Ive ever used, and Ive never said it means three sticks or any other 'system'

 

And yes, my (cheap) swing radar suggests a substantial gain in speed just from swinging a driver, and as I have said in this very thread, thats anecdotal evidence.. its not a study, hence there is nothing to peer review.

[TheGolfingRealtor]

On 1/6/2022 at 2:33 PM, NevinW said:

I'm 66 and I underwent meniscus surgery in July.  After PT I've decided to continue the weight lifting and had the Physical Therapist (not a golfer) start me on a routine. I've not been a weight lifting enthusiast in the past so I am a beginner.  I've probably done about 18 sessions so far and have increased weight and reps about every other session. I've stuck with machines to avoid injury (a priority).   I've also lost weight from 194 to 180 so far and have been playing as much golf as the weather allows along with hitting balls in a simulator 1-2 times per week.  However, my max swing speed is 92-93 mph these days and it has not really increased.  I'd REALLY like to increase that by golf season.  It used to be > 100 5-7 years ago.  

 

What I would like to know is whether the routine I am doing is headed in the right track to increase swing speed or should I be adding some exercises?  Are there any I shouldn't be doing?   More weight and less reps, or the opposite?  Thoughts and recommendations?

 

Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 9:14 AM

Bicep Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 55 lb × 12
Set 2: 55 lb × 9

Crunch (Machine)
Set 1: 105 lb × 12
Set 2: 110 lb × 12

Lateral Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12

Front Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12
Set 2: 8 lb × 12

Leg Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 70 lb × 12
Set 2: 70 lb × 12

Leg Press
Set 1: 120 lb × 12
Set 2: 120 lb × 12

Seated Leg Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 67 lb × 12
Set 2: 67 lb × 12

Calf Press on Seated Leg Press
Set 1: 100 lb × 12
Set 2: 100 lb × 12

Triceps Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 85 lb × 12
Set 2: 85 lb × 12

 

Torso Rotation (Machine)
Set 1: 110 lb × 12 each side

Back Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 80 lb × 12

Cycling
Set 1: 2 mi | 10:20
 

Here is my backstory... I had two elbow surgeries last year, 11 cortisone shots and 10 months of PT. In November I started doing the Stack System and after I completed the first program I gained 7mph of club head speed. I am now almost at the end of my second program (have already gained another 5mph and 13 yards) and will have to do another progress check but all signs point to another increase. These are real results that I have seen on the course. Towards the end of last year I was hitting the ball further than I have in a long time.

 

Every day I do about an hour of functional strength training which includes a lot of stretching, a lot of TRX golf exercises, med ball exercises, battling ropes, various yoga stretches etc. It takes a lot of work and I'm only 46. The second hour I do one body part and go all out.

 

The big buzzwords these days is "ground force" so you need to be able to use the ground properly on the way back and on the way through. I use the down under board and the force pedals to do this and it definitely helps.

 

If you want to get better, you need to make that investment.

[EALSAUCE]

@NevinW, sorry your post has been high-jacked. I used to be a TPI certified trainer and have some experience dealing with knee injuries, having suffered one myself. Most people on here posting relevant information are correct in that compound lifts will help with stabilization and overall growth.

 

For golf specific exercises that isolate I would recommend: Lying Single Leg Raises with or without ankle weights, Hip Abductor exercises like Clams or Standing Hip abductors using a resistance band.

 

Exercises that are compound exercises and are great for golf are: Goblet Squats to overhead press (if you're comfortable with them), Twisting Lunges (or half lunges), Good Mornings, Glute Bridges.

 

Continuing to strengthen your core while incorporating exercises and stretches to open up your hips may help get you some swing speed back. 

 

Hope this helps! 

[Fuscinator]

Not a big fan of machines. When you do free weights, or bodyweight exercises, the movements work the primary muscles, but they also work on the contributing and stabilizing muscles. Machines only work the primary muscles. For example, compare leg extensions to barbell squats...

https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/LVLegExtension

https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSquat

Both exercises target the quads, but the squat incorporates so many more muscles than the leg extension, and in a manner that is arguably more related to golf than sitting in a machine (the so-called 'Sam Snead squat' comes to mind).

 

The only way machines prevent injury is during the exercise. As the machine takes care of form for you, you won't be injured by bad form. That's it. 

 

I would add some mobility stuff too. Yoga would be great. Twisting, balance, and flexibility are all components of both golf and Yoga. Most Yoga classes are pretty non-judgmental, so it's easy to feel comfortable in the situation very quickly.

 

 

 

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, Fuscinator said:

Not a big fan of machines. When you do free weights, or bodyweight exercises, the movements work the primary muscles, but they also work on the contributing and stabilizing muscles. Machines only work the primary muscles. For example, compare leg extensions to barbell squats...

https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/LVLegExtension

https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSquat

Both exercises target the quads, but the squat incorporates so many more muscles than the leg extension, and in a manner that is arguably more related to golf than sitting in a machine (the so-called 'Sam Snead squat' comes to mind).

 

The only way machines prevent injury is during the exercise. As the machine takes care of form for you, you won't be injured by bad form. That's it. 

 

I would add some mobility stuff too. Yoga would be great. Twisting, balance, and flexibility are all components of both golf and Yoga. Most Yoga classes are pretty non-judgmental, so it's easy to feel comfortable in the situation very quickly.

 

 

 

I disagree with the part where you state that machines prevent injury.  Any exercise you do can cause injury period if form gets sloppy or the weight is too heavy.  I'm a personal trainer and I have clients who range from everyday people to pro athletes do a variety of exercises using free weights, cable and machines.  The body usually stagnates if you stick to the same routine over and over again.  

Edited March 29, 2022 by phizzy30

[Fuscinator]

2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

I disagree with the part where you state that machines prevent injury.  Any exercise you do can cause injury period if form gets sloppy or the weight is too heavy.  I'm a personal trainer and I have clients who range from everyday people to pro athletes do a variety of exercises using free weights, cable and machines.  The body usually stagnates if you stick to the same routine over and over again.  

Well yeah, any moron hellbent on destroying himself can usually strike gold, in that regard. I probably should've said that it's harder to get injured by bad form with a machine than it would be with a back flip. The 1980s New England Patriots saw a player get injured sitting in his easy chair, so...

[Justsomeguy]

12 hours ago, PTkummae said:

I recommend to add some more suplements. You will see big results!

I was thinking tons more kegels!

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, narineedito said:

I don't understand why you're arguing. Every topic can be subject to debate, and it's okay to have different opinions.

If you don't want people to argue on the internet, perhaps don't bump 8 month old threads when they had STOPPED arguing. 

 

Just a thought...

[aggiegolfer21]

Take out the bicep curls and add in rows.  This will work the upper back as well as the biceps.  I would also put in bench press instead of tricep extension for the same reason.  Works the chest as well as the triceps.

[Redpro]

I would do all of the above (and have done most of what has been discussed, I'm 73 now), and spend golf practice time getting to where you can hit the fairway with your tee-shot, get on or near the green with your approach shot, and then get the golf ball in the hole in two shots 70% of the time from either the fringe, apron or green surface. 

 

I now just do mid-distance cycling, walking, body-weight exercises and yoga poses (Yin Yoga) and core/ab/glute/hip floor work. 

 

And good nutrition. 

 

I did love reading the debates in this thread! Lots of good experience here. 

[phizzy30]

21 hours ago, aggiegolfer21 said:

Take out the bicep curls and add in rows.  This will work the upper back as well as the biceps.  I would also put in bench press instead of tricep extension for the same reason.  Works the chest as well as the triceps.

I'm saying this as a personal trainer and because of my body building back round.  All muscle groups SHOULD be targeted whether it be through compound and isolation exercises.  I have my buddy/client who's on the Mackenzie Tour do bicep curl and tricep extension variations as well the compound movements you mentioned on the regular.  Most personal trainers who train golfers also incorporate isolation exercises for bis and tris as well.  I'm not going to throw names out there, but I have acquintances who train guys on the Korn Ferry and PGA Tour as well that incorporate them on a regular basis. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by phizzy30

[Wardonation]

On 1/7/2022 at 12:53 PM, phizzy30 said:

Strength training doesn't have as much of an impact on increasing ss as most people think it does.  It's mainly used to decrease the chances of injury for all sports including golf.  That being said, it should not be ignored either when training for golf.  In order to add speed, you must also incorporate over speed training, increase flexibility and also perform explosive movements aka plyometrics in your routine as well. 

In general more weight less reps and more sets. I would think in terms of 4 sets 5 reps. Also, over speed training on leg day before legs. I would do a typical "PUSH PULL LEG" workout.

[ferrispgm]

With regards to your

On 1/6/2022 at 12:33 PM, NevinW said:

I'm 66 and I underwent meniscus surgery in July.  After PT I've decided to continue the weight lifting and had the Physical Therapist (not a golfer) start me on a routine. I've not been a weight lifting enthusiast in the past so I am a beginner.  I've probably done about 18 sessions so far and have increased weight and reps about every other session. I've stuck with machines to avoid injury (a priority).   I've also lost weight from 194 to 180 so far and have been playing as much golf as the weather allows along with hitting balls in a simulator 1-2 times per week.  However, my max swing speed is 92-93 mph these days and it has not really increased.  I'd REALLY like to increase that by golf season.  It used to be > 100 5-7 years ago.  

 

What I would like to know is whether the routine I am doing is headed in the right track to increase swing speed or should I be adding some exercises?  Are there any I shouldn't be doing?   More weight and less reps, or the opposite?  Thoughts and recommendations?

 

Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 9:14 AM

Bicep Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 55 lb × 12
Set 2: 55 lb × 9

Crunch (Machine)
Set 1: 105 lb × 12
Set 2: 110 lb × 12

Lateral Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12

Front Raise (Dumbbell)
Set 1: 8 lb × 12
Set 2: 8 lb × 12

Leg Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 70 lb × 12
Set 2: 70 lb × 12

Leg Press
Set 1: 120 lb × 12
Set 2: 120 lb × 12

Seated Leg Curl (Machine)
Set 1: 67 lb × 12
Set 2: 67 lb × 12

Calf Press on Seated Leg Press
Set 1: 100 lb × 12
Set 2: 100 lb × 12

Triceps Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 85 lb × 12
Set 2: 85 lb × 12

 

Torso Rotation (Machine)
Set 1: 110 lb × 12 each side

Back Extension (Machine)
Set 1: 80 lb × 12

Cycling
Set 1: 2 mi | 10:20
 

Rep range is fine...though if you are looking to add some explosiveness, you would need to lift heavier...somewhere in the 5-8 rep range and try to move the weight as quickly as possible...Unfortunately, that is a little counterintuitive for injury prevention.  I would recommend you actually go in the 15+ rep range and do 3-4 sets.  Volume and time under tension are king when it comes to building muscle...both of which you get when you increase the reps and sets.   ppl will say that's too much volume, that will lead to overtraining, blah blah blah...those are common fitness misconceptions just like you have in the golf swing.  I will agree that ppl respond differently but a vast majority tend to do better on higher reps and lower weight.  The key though is making sure you are focusing on contracting or consciously flexing the muscle to move the weight and not just arbitrarily moving the weight.  Case in point...do a bicep curl where you flext your bicep to move the weight...next do one where you just move the weight....You will find that flexing is much much harder.

 

If you are looking to increase SS...make your swing better...the fewer compensations you make the farther you can hit the ball.  Weight lifting will add some speed, especially if you are lacking in an area...but most people will not see much of an improvement...maybe 3-4mph.  Overspeed training helps a little as well but I haven't seen many people be able to maintain the speed gained.  Make your swing better and the speed will follow.  Another aspect of the swing that will help is speeding up the backswing.  Sasho McKenzie talks about this but to oversimplify...the braking force required by your arms to slow the club to the top gets re-routed to the downswing meaning a faster backswing translates into a faster downswing.  Take a non-slo mo video of yourself....try and make the backswing as fast as possible....I would bet it isn't that fast.

 

 

[NevinW]

I am surprised to see this old thread that I started.  Sorry to see that it deteriorated into an argument but that is the way it goes on the internet.  I ended up going with Par4Success and they have helped me gain both strength and flexibility.  Ball striking is greatly improved.  They include overspeed training.     

[bluedot]

On 9/18/2023 at 7:07 AM, NevinW said:

I am surprised to see this old thread that I started.  Sorry to see that it deteriorated into an argument but that is the way it goes on the internet.  I ended up going with Par4Success and they have helped me gain both strength and flexibility.  Ball striking is greatly improved.  They include overspeed training.     

I’m glad Par4Success is working out for you.  I’ve been a client of theirs since 2019 when a teaching pro I was working with sent me to them to work on hip mobility.  I did in-person sessions for several months, and online since early 2020.  They were fantastic during the pandemic when all the gyms were shutdown; we sent them pictures of the equipment we had at home, and they setup workouts for us using just that.  It was a lifesaver.

 

 

 

[golferdude54]

Personally I don’t believe in running/jumping/plyometrics for golf training, that’s way too much stress on the knees over time. Especially if you’re past 50.
 

The way guys on the PGA Tour are training and swinging now, most of them won’t be able to play on the Champions Tour because of the overloading they put on their bodies in their 20s and 30s. We just haven’t seen it happen yet with this generation but it will.
 

It’s already happened with Tiger, he can’t even play as many Champions Tour events as he wants to when he turns 50, and he won’t be the last.

 

Cable rotation exercises are definitely the way to go.