Inside takeaway = over-the-top, experiencing the reverse

[Luckydutch]

It seems like the most common advice on the internet regarding an over-the-top swing is that an inside takeaway is often the root cause and that a steeper takeaway will help to cure it.

 

I've recorded myself across hundreds of swings trying different takeaways and I am absolutely convinced that for me it has the exact reverse effect. The steeper my takeaway, the more I am going to have to actively fight the temptation to go over-the-top. 

 

Why could this be?

 

I have observed that when I do a steeper takeaway, my hands do not go as far behind me in the backswing and so it's very easy for torso rotation to pull the hands back in front of me in the downswing.

 

When I do a shallower backswing (such as when going under an alignment rod as below), my hands get more behind me and it's way easier to swing them back down on the same plane keeping them behind me as long as possible in the downswing.

 

 

 

I guess I don't have much of a looping motion to my swing, it's more of a pendulum where the arms go down on more-or-less the exact same path they went up. Is that unusual?

 

I'm reluctant to ignore the advice of all these PGA instructors online saying that an inside takeaway/flat backswing causes OTT but I also play way better golf when I do ignore it and allow myself a flatter backswing.

 

I'd like to move on from this damn issue now and start working on my hips spinning-out but when I'm trying to play with a steeper takeaway, I need my entire focus through the swing to be on swinging from the inside otherwise I revert to a wildly OTT move. 

 

Is there any logic in all this? Is it possible for a steep takeaway to contribute to a steep downswing, contrary to popular belief? 

[glk]

More complex.   Factors are pitch of shaft in backswing, length of backswing, depth, and motion of golfer (do they overuse upper body,  do they keep or get trail shoulder internally rotated, etc)   So it is about match ups.  

one example.  Having a laid off shaft but long swing tends to lead to the steep shaft in transition but not necessarily being ott (spinning shoulders open early) - they could just fail to move trail shoulder toward external rotation without spinning the shoulders.  

 

all that said can’t tell much from still photos.  Have to see the motion.

[jholz]

As @glk states, there are a lot of things that can happen from an inside takeaway. OTT and the dreaded slice are one of them, but there are a lot of other compensations that can come into play as well. An inside takeaway can also lead to Early Extension and problems with the ball going left, for instance.

 

I think it is also important to differentiate between "sucking the club inside on the take away" and just having "a flatter backswing."

 

Matt Kuchar, for example, has a really flat backswing, but he doesn't suck the club inside on the takeaway. 

 

Ultimately, you may be trying to solve something that isn't a problem, or you may be trying to apply a solution that doesn't fit with your swing mechanics. A full swing video is would be helpful to really understand what is going on. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by jholz

[KMeloney]

1 minute ago, jholz said:

As @glk states, there are a lot of things that can happen from an inside takeaway. OTT and the dreaded slice are one of them, but there are a lot of other compensations that can come into play as well. An inside takeaway can also lead to Early Extension and problems with the ball going left, for instance.

 

I think it is also important to differentiate between "sucking the club inside on the take away" and just having "a flatter backswing."

 

Matt Kuchar, for example, has a really flat backswing, but he doesn't suck the club inside on the takeaway. 

 

Ultimately, you may be trying to solve something that isn't a problem, or you may be trying to apply a solution that doesn't fit with your swing mechanics. A full swing video is would be helpful to really understand what is going on. 

 

This.

 

Conflating "flat" and "inside" is a mistake. They're not necessarily the same thing at all.

 

The idea with "taking the club inside" resulting in being OTT has everything to do with getting the club way inside of your hands before/at P2, whether by pushing your hands away and sucking the club inside, or rolling the wrists immediately, or breaking the right wrist back flat, etc. That can quickly lead to pinning your arm across your chest and "running out of arms" early. Typically, knowing they're pretty stuck there, folks lift their arms to the top and get the club too shallow and high (or don't lift and have the arms way too low), and then move their rear shoulder out toward the ball in an effort to get the club from out behind them and down to the ball. If you (the OP) aren't doing these things, then I'd recommend you stop chasing or questioning the fix to something that's not an issue.

[Zitlow]

 

 

 

As you fold the right arm the face starts coming onto the plane. 

 

From here it opens a little more until the face is laying flat on the inclined plane. 

 

[hammersia]

When I really exaggerate a more vertical outside the line backswing, I feel it gives me more time to consciously loop on the inside / intuitively know that I need to loop inside to avoid a straight pull left. 

 

Maybe try really, really exaggerating the outside takeaway to force yourself inside on the downswing, just as a drill.

[Krt22]

If the more vertical backswing is causing issues and a flatter backswing plane isn't, it's likely the transition and less the take away itself. Learning to use the arms/wrists properly from a more vertical position is a chore in it's own

[GLF4EVR]

My swing is classified a deliberate.  The woods & 3 iron are at a standard lie.  The rest of the irons are a progressively upright lie.  The 58 is right at 3 degrees upright.   At 63 still limber enough that I can take a full swing with no problems.  Have to even watch out that I do not over swing.  From reading your description, made me think of what I fight.  Currently on my backswing I need to bring the clubhead in a little bit inside.  If I get too far back....can be a snap hook, especially with 3/5 wood or long iron.  If I don't get the head inside, at least a fade (that I do not want at the time), or even a slice. @glk is exactly on with my issue....not having the shoulders square at impact.

 

Was fighting this at the end of the season, so will be working on it when it begins here.  This may not help your issue at all, but just food for thought.

[Luckydutch]

On 2/18/2022 at 3:40 PM, KMeloney said:

 

This.

 

Conflating "flat" and "inside" is a mistake. They're not necessarily the same thing at all.

 

The idea with "taking the club inside" resulting in being OTT has everything to do with getting the club way inside of your hands before/at P2, whether by pushing your hands away and sucking the club inside, or rolling the wrists immediately, or breaking the right wrist back flat, etc. That can quickly lead to pinning your arm across your chest and "running out of arms" early. Typically, knowing they're pretty stuck there, folks lift their arms to the top and get the club too shallow and high (or don't lift and have the arms way too low), and then move their rear shoulder out toward the ball in an effort to get the club from out behind them and down to the ball. If you (the OP) aren't doing these things, then I'd recommend you stop chasing or questioning the fix to something that's not an issue.

 

Thank you all for the responses @glk @jholz @kmaloney @Zitlow @hammersia @Krt22 @GLF4EVR

 

Responding to you all at once as you all seem to have given feedback which is consistent with each other.

 

Perhaps I am conflating inside with flat with regards to the takeaway. I just see so many people commenting on other swing videos and youtube instructors talking about this idea as the cause of OTT.

 

In my case, I feel I do a relatively good job of not rolling the wrists over too much in the takeaway to turn the club inside. I just feel I swing better with a flatter backswing as I don't naturally flatten it out in the downswing. If my backswing is steep, so will my downswing be.

 

Below is an example of a typical swing when I try having a (slightly) steeper backswing. The outcome wasn't too terrible there, I squared the path and face through impact but I was coming down very steep and got away with it because it was a 9 iron. I'm not sure it would have had a good outcome with a 5i. And that swing was with a conscious swing thought to try to drop the club down to my right and fight the OTT. If I drop this swing thought, it can get very OTT very quickly with this kind of backswing.

 

 

It feels my natural inclination is to swing directly back in the most direct path to the ball from the top of the backswing - back on the same path as the backswing. I understand that a lot of players play with more of a 'two-plane' swing now. Is that relevant to my issue?

 

I did actually once at the range try doing a very steep takeaway with a big flattening of the path in the transition in an attempt to replicate this:

 

 

 

I had interesting results. I stopped going over-the-top and started hitting draws (rare for me, I'm usually dead-straight or fade/slice) but I also really struggled in consistency of strike. Got lots of toe-strikes, topped balls etc. I'm not sure whether that's because of the big manipulation I was doing to flatten it or just that I would need to practice that swing for more than one session to get the hang of it

 

[Luckydutch]

I can't seem to make those videos sit smaller in the post 😅

[tthomasgolfer605]

Club looks way too upright for you. Your brain knows this and will add more unhinging of the wrists than necessary or the heel would hit first. 

[glk]

in both video your arms and pivot are of out synch in the backswing causing you to lift with arms continuing after pivot ends.

 

In first, you get arms inside too much (and result of arms and pivot not working together - arms supply the up, and pivot around) - and this leads to arm overrun of pivot and a reaction of steeping the club in transition, etc.    You aren't getting sufficient right hip depth and your EE is happening in the backswing as you move your pelvis toward the ball so on the downswing.

 

In the second, you depth is good and much better than the first but still have arms and pivot not working together - then in downswing you compound things by dropping arms behind you instead of having them work down - so arms get way behind and stuck more than first swing - and really in to out as a result.

 

this is a good drill to have arms and pivot work together in the takeaway - need to get better right hip depth and synch arms and pivot to eliminate the arm overrun.     https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

this is all the arms do. https://www.instagram.com/p/CXwHFLmNfNP/   

get a broom or a shovel.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CXrTF7eDK_F/

 

But best thing to do would be to find good instruction - online or in person.      Could be other things at work and a lesson is best way to address things.     Monte here does online live.

[golfarb1]

You issues are directly related to your setup and too much  and too early rotation of your pelvis.

Lets use the enclosed stills of Rory and compare these  to stills of your swing at similar stages in the backswing

SETUP-Notice 5 significant differences

a. Your knees are bent more -closer to your toes

b. His lower legs is  close to vertical while yours are angled toward your toes

c.His upper leg is angled  away from the target considerably more than yours

d.His butt extend behind his heels more than yours

e. His amount of hip bend is considerably greater than yours

f. You have considerably more kyphosis( rounded shoulders)

in your upper thoracic spine than he does . This can cause problems in rotation going back. 
 

The good news is these setup issues are relatively easier to change( except for the kyphosis , which is a fitness issue)
Stand upright with normal good posture with your butt about 2 inches from a wall. Place your hands on the front of your hips and then push back  until your butt lightly touches the wall. Then bend your knees until they are over the middle of your shoelaces 

 

EARLY BACKSWING to MID BACKSWING

Your issues have nothing to do with a steep or shallow takeaway But are directly related to how much you move your pelvis. Look at the bend of your left knee compared to Rorys at first parallel . He has only a small amount  while yours left knee is almost over your toe.He has  very little pelvic”rotation “ at this stage in his swing , while your pelvic “ rotation “ is obvious . It is this pelvic “ rotation” that causes your inside takeaway .

The problem is this early and excessive pelvic “ rotation”only results in greater problems later in your swing 

Now compare both your swings at 9:00 going back . Note that your left knee is out beyond your front toes while his is towards the middle of your foot   And your pelvis is much more” rotated “ than his . Notice how much more your left arm is angled away from the target line compared to his . The position of your arm at this point almost guarantees that your right elbow will be behind your body the top.

SUGGESTIONS

1.You need to reduce how much your front leg bends going . There are two ways to do this 

a. Flare out your front foot 1/4 turn towards the target .

b. At setup place  a short alignment rod in the ground almost touching the inside of your big toe of your front foot .Do not touch  your lead knee to this alignment rod going back

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by golfarb1

[jholz]

It is interesting. Others may correct me. 

 

But I'm really seeing the problem in your transition and initial moves in initiating the downswing. It's all about the hips.

 

Instead of getting that deep hip turn into the heel of your lead foot, and base of spine shift towards your target, I'm seeing your core moving towards the ball, and a bit of early extension.

 

This seems to be leading to an open club face at contact. Again, others can probably offer better and more clear advice, but I'd really try to get those hips working properly.

 

There are a couple of Athletic Motion Golf (AMG) videos out there that are very illuminating in this respect. A quick search on YouTube should lead you to the right place.

[Luckydutch]

3 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Club looks way too upright for you. Your brain knows this and will add more unhinging of the wrists than necessary or the heel would hit first. 

Funny you should say that. That image is using my old irons that were standard length, standard lie.

 

I just got fitted for new irons that are +1/2” + 2 degrees upright. So actually more upright than the ones in that video! However, I don’t feel the need to lift the toe at address any more. They sit quite nicely for me now when I just let the iron rest neutrally on the floor.

[Luckydutch]

51 minutes ago, glk said:

in both video your arms and pivot are of out synch in the backswing causing you to lift with arms continuing after pivot ends.

 

In first, you get arms inside too much (and result of arms and pivot not working together - arms supply the up, and pivot around) - and this leads to arm overrun of pivot and a reaction of steeping the club in transition, etc.    You aren't getting sufficient right hip depth and your EE is happening in the backswing as you move your pelvis toward the ball so on the downswing.

 

In the second, you depth is good and much better than the first but still have arms and pivot not working together - then in downswing you compound things by dropping arms behind you instead of having them work down - so arms get way behind and stuck more than first swing - and really in to out as a result.

 

this is a good drill to have arms and pivot work together in the takeaway - need to get better right hip depth and synch arms and pivot to eliminate the arm overrun.     https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

 

this is all the arms do. https://www.instagram.com/p/CXwHFLmNfNP/   

get a broom or a shovel.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CXrTF7eDK_F/

 

But best thing to do would be to find good instruction - online or in person.      Could be other things at work and a lesson is best way to address things.     Monte here does online live.

I think I know what you mean and it may be linked to what the poster below you said.

 

Definitely something I can work on, thanks.

 

I do actually have an instructor but I only get to see him every couple of months when I leave the city and visit my family. That screenshot with the alignment rod was the lesson where we worked on my OTT. He had me flattening out my backswing and downswing.

[Luckydutch]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

You issues are directly related to your setup and too much  and too early rotation of your pelvis.

Lets use the enclosed stills of Rory and compare these  to stills of your swing at similar stages in the backswing

SETUP-Notice 5 significant differences

a. Your knees are bent more -closer to your toes

b. His lower legs is  close to vertical while yours are angled toward your toes

c.His upper leg is angled  away from the target considerably more than yours

d.His butt extend behind his heels more than yours

e. His amount of hip bend is considerably greater than yours

f. You have considerably more kyphosis( rounded shoulders)

in your upper thoracic spine than he does . This can cause problems in rotation going back. 
 

The good news is these setup issues are relatively easier to change( except for the kyphosis , which is a fitness issue)
Stand upright with normal good posture with your butt about 2 inches from a wall. Place your hands on the front of your hips and then push back  until your butt lightly touches the wall. Then bend your knees until they are over the middle of your shoelaces 

 

EARLY BACKSWING to MID BACKSWING

Your issues have nothing to do with a steep or shallow takeaway But are directly related to how much you move your pelvis. Look at the bend of your left knee compared to Rorys at first parallel . He has only a small amount  while yours left knee is almost over your toe.He has  very little pelvic”rotation “ at this stage in his swing , while your pelvic “ rotation “ is obvious . It is this pelvic “ rotation” that causes your inside takeaway .

The problem is this early and excessive pelvic “ rotation”only results in greater problems later in your swing 

Now compare both your swings at 9:00 going back . Note that your left knee is out beyond your front toes while his is towards the middle of your foot   And your pelvis is much more” rotated “ than his . Notice how much more your left arm is angled away from the target line compared to his . The position of your arm at this point almost guarantees that your right elbow will be behind your body the top.

SUGGESTIONS

1.You need to reduce how much your front leg bends going . There are two ways to do this 

a. Flare out your front foot 1/4 turn towards the target .

b. At setup place  a short alignment rod in the ground almost touching the inside of your big toe of your front foot .Do not touch  your lead knee to this alignment rod going back

 

That’s really insightful, thanks.

 

On the setup, my main sports before golf were rugby and skiing where that Z-shape in the legs with knees forward and weight centred is advantageous.

 

I guess less bend in the legs and bum back means my centre of gravity is more towards the heel? Or I bend forwards more from the hips to bring that weight back to the centre of my feet?

 

I just tried a few air swings with the setup as you suggested and noticed that that left knee collapsing forward. It feels like it stays a bit more ‘loaded’.

 

I don’t fully understand how this all impacts my swing plane and OTT move but it feels like progress.

[Luckydutch]

53 minutes ago, jholz said:

It is interesting. Others may correct me. 

 

But I'm really seeing the problem in your transition and initial moves in initiating the downswing. It's all about the hips.

 

Instead of getting that deep hip turn into the heel of your lead foot, and base of spine shift towards your target, I'm seeing your core moving towards the ball, and a bit of early extension.

 

This seems to be leading to an open club face at contact. Again, others can probably offer better and more clear advice, but I'd really try to get those hips working properly.

 

There are a couple of Athletic Motion Golf (AMG) videos out there that are very illuminating in this respect. A quick search on YouTube should lead you to the right place.

That was actually what I was trying to work on when I felt my OTT come storming back.

My hips spin horizontally really fast in the downswing and it puts my weight in my toes. 
 

I was trying the Dr Kwon stepping drill.

[jholz]

1 hour ago, Luckydutch said:

That was actually what I was trying to work on when I felt my OTT come storming back.

My hips spin horizontally really fast in the downswing and it puts my weight in my toes. 
 

I was trying the Dr Kwon stepping drill.

 

Oh man, do I feel you. I fought the tendency to get out on the toes for a long time. If I get tired or lazy, it will still crop up from time to time. When it does, you'll find me in the tree line on the left side of the fairway looking for my ball.

 

For me, focusing on balance was the key to finding a repeatable swing. That endeavor translated into being more aware of how my weight shifts through my feet during the swing. That, in turn, lead me to think about my hips and pelvis, and how they are moving through the swing and distributing that weight to the feet.

 

Your swing is not far off. I'd wager $10 that if you get that balance issue addressed you'll find more consistency in your strikes and direction.

 

But, I'm no pro, so take everything I say with a healthy dose of skepticism.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by jholz

[glk]

2 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

I think I know what you mean and it may be linked to what the poster below you said.

 

Definitely something I can work on, thanks.

 

I do actually have an instructor but I only get to see him every couple of months when I leave the city and visit my family. That screenshot with the alignment rod was the lesson where we worked on my OTT. He had me flattening out my backswing and downswing.

I would consider moving on from your current instructor.   Not addressing your hip turn, etc from the get go is not a good sign -  after setup how you move your ankles and knees to move the hips and rotate the pelvis is 1st order.   How you move your lower body and when affects your arm movement, pressure, and ability to make a complete turn with arms and body in synch.      
 

Depending on where you are someone could point you to a really good instructor.  

[Valtiel]

I just wanted to echo the advice given above, a lot of "too much" going on. 

1) @KMeloney said exactly what I was thinking about the first video. WAY too long of a swing with a 9i. You're steep coming down because your backswing has overrun significantly and you need more time than is available to get the club back on plane, so the only place to go is more outside/steep. 

2) +1 to what @glk said about the second swing. This is perfect example of what happens when you try to force your hands/arms to do something that your body doesn't want to allow. As Monte has inferred in the past, you're actually worse attempting to do the "right" stuff with one part of your body if the other part is doing the wrong stuff. 

The bottom line is that no amount of tinkering with your swing plane/takeaway/arm positions is going to help with your lower body working against you. You're up on your toes the whole time, and this is death, ESPECIALLY with your hips also being fast like yours. Let's do this Tarantino style and look at just your feet 😅:



The first frame is at address and then the second starts in transition going into impact. You move up to your toes on both feet and basically stay there. Up on your left toe at impact = dead. At minimum you need to be centered on that foot, at best working more towards the heel. Look up any pro's swing down the line and focus on the feet, just about everyone will be towards their lead heel at impact. Lets use JB Holmes as an exaggerated example:



Lead foot is doing the opposite of what yours is. The reason this matters is that your overall center of gravity needs to at minimum maintain it's "distance" from the ball, at best working slightly AWAY from it. Getting into your left heel in transition means you're working your left hip away from the ball. This naturally creates the room you need to come into the ball on plane. Getting stuck up on your toes means you're pulling towards the ball, and towards the ball = a natural steepening of your downswing to compensate. When you artificially try to shallow your arms while your overall CG is shifting towards the ball, you get completely stuck like @glk pointed out as those things work against each other, and you end up with the terrible Word not allowed strike we see in that video. 

You'll have to figure out your own way to feel/visualize this, but the lower body needs to act as a sort of stable counterbalance for your upper body. The centrifugal force created by swinging a golf club towards a ball in front of you will naturally pull you towards it, and your lower body needs to counteract that tendency, not go along with it. IMO this is one of the biggest technical things that separates us from the better players because this initially is very unintuitive. I'm starting to bark at my uncle more these days because the moment he takes the club away he gets up on his toes and starts falling towards the ball, even in his practice swings. You can't play any kind of good golf doing this, and you'll actually get worse if all you do is try to "improve" what you're doing with the upper body. 

I think the overall short term goals would be shortening your overrunning backswing and focusing otherwise completely on getting your lower body working correctly, and critically being able to feel when it doesn't. These days when I feel a swing get a little steep/outside I am ONLY feeling how my lower body caused that (I have struggled with being on my toes as well). When your lower body starts working more correctly, the other elements naturally move towards where they should be. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Valtiel

[MonteScheinblum]

The root cause is right hip out of position at the top.  It’s swaying instead of rotating behind you.  You’re stuck on the right side and that’s forcing you out to move the swing bottom forward.

 

The extra arm swing is just yiu trying to make a full backswing with poor hip rotation.

Edited February 20, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[Owly]

Do I have similar issues? I made this video literally right before finding this thread funny enough. High level I just need to get my swing lower. But I'm not sure what swing thought / drill to work on that with. I think maybe my grip is too strong and I'm not rolling my wrists enough. My hands want to come up super high on the takeaway as well. Is the thing though just to keep my hands as close to my belt as possible?

 

I think my right know is too active and needs to move more horizontally, but it seems like more of a symptom than something worth solely focusing on. Any thoughts?

 

 

iron swing

 

 

[golfarb1]

Your hands immediately start moving away from your torso and roll inside  in the late takeaway . Look at the large  increase in space between your hands and torso

To correct this , focus on your hands moving straight back until they are outside of your trail leg

 

During transition you have a poor right elbow move , thus making it impossible for your right elbow to be on and in front of your right hip at impact  and abetting a spin . 

The correct right elbow move  is for your right elbow to move faster towards the target line than your hands in transition 

[MonteScheinblum]

8 hours ago, Owly said:

Do I have similar issues? I made this video literally right before finding this thread funny enough. High level I just need to get my swing lower. But I'm not sure what swing thought / drill to work on that with. I think maybe my grip is too strong and I'm not rolling my wrists enough. My hands want to come up super high on the takeaway as well. Is the thing though just to keep my hands as close to my belt as possible?

 

I think my right know is too active and needs to move more horizontally, but it seems like more of a symptom than something worth solely focusing on. Any thoughts?

 

 

iron swing

 

 

Poor backswing hip rotation which leads to a poor shift in transition and a spin out.

Edited February 22, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[Luckydutch]

On 2/20/2022 at 12:49 AM, Valtiel said:

I just wanted to echo the advice given above, a lot of "too much" going on. 

1) @KMeloney said exactly what I was thinking about the first video. WAY too long of a swing with a 9i. You're steep coming down because your backswing has overrun significantly and you need more time than is available to get the club back on plane, so the only place to go is more outside/steep. 

2) +1 to what @glk said about the second swing. This is perfect example of what happens when you try to force your hands/arms to do something that your body doesn't want to allow. As Monte has inferred in the past, you're actually worse attempting to do the "right" stuff with one part of your body if the other part is doing the wrong stuff. 

The bottom line is that no amount of tinkering with your swing plane/takeaway/arm positions is going to help with your lower body working against you. You're up on your toes the whole time, and this is death, ESPECIALLY with your hips also being fast like yours. Let's do this Tarantino style and look at just your feet 😅:



The first frame is at address and then the second starts in transition going into impact. You move up to your toes on both feet and basically stay there. Up on your left toe at impact = dead. At minimum you need to be centered on that foot, at best working more towards the heel. Look up any pro's swing down the line and focus on the feet, just about everyone will be towards their lead heel at impact. Lets use JB Holmes as an exaggerated example:



Lead foot is doing the opposite of what yours is. The reason this matters is that your overall center of gravity needs to at minimum maintain it's "distance" from the ball, at best working slightly AWAY from it. Getting into your left heel in transition means you're working your left hip away from the ball. This naturally creates the room you need to come into the ball on plane. Getting stuck up on your toes means you're pulling towards the ball, and towards the ball = a natural steepening of your downswing to compensate. When you artificially try to shallow your arms while your overall CG is shifting towards the ball, you get completely stuck like @glk pointed out as those things work against each other, and you end up with the terrible Word not allowed strike we see in that video. 

You'll have to figure out your own way to feel/visualize this, but the lower body needs to act as a sort of stable counterbalance for your upper body. The centrifugal force created by swinging a golf club towards a ball in front of you will naturally pull you towards it, and your lower body needs to counteract that tendency, not go along with it. IMO this is one of the biggest technical things that separates us from the better players because this initially is very unintuitive. I'm starting to bark at my uncle more these days because the moment he takes the club away he gets up on his toes and starts falling towards the ball, even in his practice swings. You can't play any kind of good golf doing this, and you'll actually get worse if all you do is try to "improve" what you're doing with the upper body. 

I think the overall short term goals would be shortening your overrunning backswing and focusing otherwise completely on getting your lower body working correctly, and critically being able to feel when it doesn't. These days when I feel a swing get a little steep/outside I am ONLY feeling how my lower body caused that (I have struggled with being on my toes as well). When your lower body starts working more correctly, the other elements naturally move towards where they should be. 

 

 

This (and the rest of the comments in this threat) was very good advice.

 

By way of an update, I did a short range session, adjusting my setup and weight transfer and was really impressed with the results. I felt like a better golfer almost immediately. My balance was better and I felt like I had more space to swing and extend/straighten my arms through impact to square the face. Consequently, I wasn't fading the irons so much and was hitting more straight or draw shots.

 

Although I felt better immediately, I'm not sure I would actually score better at the moment if I went onto the course. Face control might have improved but my path was still a big issue. I felt like I was fighting that over-the-top/cast-the-club-at-the-ball move still and with my face now being more square, I swapped weak fades for pulls and over-draws where the ball starts left and continues left. Hit a few nasty shanks too which is not a miss I would usually have.

 

Here's a typical example:

 

 

A more attractive swing than the week before but that ball was going waaaay left.

 

Towards the end of the session I got so frustrated with hitting otherwise nice shots that went 40 yards right of target that I started closing my shoulders slightly at address to make it feel a little easier to swing from the inside. You see me pull my right shoulder back at the very start of this:

 

 

Funnily enough, that one was actually quite a nice, straight shot.

 

Isn't that a bit of a bandaid-fix that won't help me in the long-run?

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Luckydutch

[kongot]

Interesting thread. I've struggled with a slice my whole life. I am literally at the end of the line and rdy to quit. I am on vacation and took a random lesson from the pro here. I've always focused on taking the club back either straight back or a little bit outside. I've always been told/read to do this. 

 

The first thing the pro told me was that I need to take the club back more inside. I believe he said it was because by taking it inside it puts my club where it needs to be to start the inside out swing (which makes sense but I've always heard the opposite)

 

I tried this two days in a row. First day the inside takeaway worked about the same as my old swing for straight/slice drives. Second day was 0 Percent success. 

 

It's very hard for me to believe this pro is right. 

 

I'll read through this thread. 

[GoGoErky]

5 hours ago, kongot said:

Interesting thread. I've struggled with a slice my whole life. I am literally at the end of the line and rdy to quit. I am on vacation and took a random lesson from the pro here. I've always focused on taking the club back either straight back or a little bit outside. I've always been told/read to do this. 

 

The first thing the pro told me was that I need to take the club back more inside. I believe he said it was because by taking it inside it puts my club where it needs to be to start the inside out swing (which makes sense but I've always heard the opposite)

 

I tried this two days in a row. First day the inside takeaway worked about the same as my old swing for straight/slice drives. Second day was 0 Percent success. 

 

It's very hard for me to believe this pro is right. 

 

I'll read through this thread. 

Did he say the club or the hands?

[kongot]

19 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Did he say the club or the hands?

He said club 

[dap]

On 8/7/2023 at 12:47 AM, kongot said:

Interesting thread. I've struggled with a slice my whole life. I am literally at the end of the line and rdy to quit. I am on vacation and took a random lesson from the pro here. I've always focused on taking the club back either straight back or a little bit outside. I've always been told/read to do this. 

 

The first thing the pro told me was that I need to take the club back more inside. I believe he said it was because by taking it inside it puts my club where it needs to be to start the inside out swing (which makes sense but I've always heard the opposite)

 

I tried this two days in a row. First day the inside takeaway worked about the same as my old swing for straight/slice drives. Second day was 0 Percent success. 

 

It's very hard for me to believe this pro is right. 

 

I'll read through this thread. 

Backswing can influence downswing but it guarantees nothing. For chronic slicers, the best remedy is keep back to target for as long as possible on the downswing  and try to hit inside quadrant of ball. Almost feel like you are going to hit the ball 45 deg to the right. You won’t but it will negate any over the top move.