distance debate

[milesgiles]

4 hours ago, clevited said:

 

There is a sharp dogleg at one of my home courses with very tall trees blocking the way.  My elite golfer coworker didn't have an issue hitting a 3 wood straight up and over and landing it on the green.  Its a short par 4 with basically a 90 degree dogleg turn.  The trees are closer than 150 yards as well.  

 

Besides that, I can and do routinely launch my 3 wood at 17 to 20 degrees off of a 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch tee (I am guessing).  I don't fear a sky ball, I have practiced that for years.  The only reason I even have a 3 wood is for special situations where I can drive the green and need it to stop hence the high VLA.  Again, I am just a mid cap am and I am not afraid of my 3 wood, especially when I am in a groove swing wise.  I have the confidence to free the beast a lot more often then and my swing is crap by comparison to pros.  Complete with an EE that if you have ever had EE you would know how hard it is to time and be as consistent as you would like to be.  Even with the EE, I am not afraid of swinging full.

 

My guess is you are either lying in an effort to make a point, or your pro friends aren't that great.

 

I have played with plenty of good golfers, and I watch the tour all the time.  Not sure what the purpose of that part of your post was, you know it to be untrue.

 

3 perfect shots a round, sure.  Golf is all about managing your miss in my opinion.  Professional golfers, or just plain elite golfers make it look really easy especially when they are on a hot streak.  They are always managing a miss and if they hit the perfect frozen rope right on their intended line and to the exact distance they were hoping for, BONUS.

 

 

 

I dontthinkyou have ever played with a pro or watched them in person. If you had, you would know how few perfect strikes they really make. Only once, in thirty odd rounds with both of the pro's I know, could I truthfully say they 'didnt miss a shot'

 

accusing me of lying is very poor form. However, YOU have a very questionable relationship with the truth if you are telling me with a straight face you routinely hit a traditional size club off an elevated tee for a high launch. Bare in mind 3 times out of 4 without messing it up, or whatever you are claiming, is no use to a pro in strokeplay 

[clevited]

16 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I dontthinkyou have ever played with a pro or watched them in person. If you had, you would know how few perfect strikes they really make. Only once, in thirty odd rounds with both of the pro's I know, could I truthfully say they 'didnt miss a shot'

 

accusing me of lying is very poor form. However, YOU have a very questionable relationship with the truth if you are telling me with a straight face you routinely hit a traditional size club off an elevated tee for a high launch. Bare in mind 3 times out of 4 without messing it up, or whatever you are claiming, is no use to a pro in strokeplay 

 

You need to open your mind and realize you are ignorant to so much.  Yes, when I have a good day of timing my swing flaws I can nuke my 3w quite a few times in a row even.  I find it hard to believe that if I can do that, a pro that is orders of magnitude better than me in every way especially with swing technique and consistency cannot if they want to.  Maybe it is just because they haven't needed to that the guys you know aren't comfortable with it.  

 

I can post video of me hitting off a roughly 3/4 inch tee if it makes you eat some crow.

[MattC555]

My 3/4 wood is a more reliable tee club and is only 15 yards short of my driver.  It isn't nearly has hard to flight as described.  I do have trouble shaping it with the twist face it has.  I also have old hogans, steel and persimmon, that I hit from time to time.  They are not as difficult as described here either.  

 

My steel hogan driver with a steel shaft going about 10 yards shorter than my current G410, 280 yards vs 270 yards (Launch Monitor verified).  It's more difficult to hit, but manageable.  Better players than I could certainly still smoke it 300 yards.   

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

You need to open your mind and realize you are ignorant to so much.  Yes, when I have a good day of timing my swing flaws I can nuke my 3w quite a few times in a row even.  I find it hard to believe that if I can do that, a pro that is orders of magnitude better than me in every way especially with swing technique and consistency cannot if they want to.  Maybe it is just because they haven't needed to that the guys you know aren't comfortable with it.  

 

I can post video of me hitting off a roughly 3/4 inch tee if it makes you eat some crow.

I'd like to see you hit a 200 cc driver off a 3/4" tee 15 times with big money on hitting the fairway, in a row.  Pretty sure there's a sky ball around the 12th or 13th ball! 😄

Edited April 28, 2022 by gvogel
Spelled sky as ski the first time.

[clevited]

10 minutes ago, gvogel said:

I'd like to see you hit a 200 cc driver off a 3/4" tee 15 times with big money on hitting the fairway, in a row.  Pretty sure there's a sky ball around the 12th or 13th ball! 😄

 

Funny thing, I don't ever sky, if anything I thin one.  I have trained myself to never sky it because early on when I was first pushing speed training many years ago, I skied one off my brand new driver (well used new) and dented it.  Never again.

 

And this hypothetical stuff about pressure of big money and stuff.  A) I don't play competitively but I do have friends that will laugh their arses off at me should I sky one, does that count for something?  B) Pro's don't pull out a driver when the fairway wood is the play.  They don't get nervous and bunt a driver instead of hit a full fairway wood.  I don't then expect them to have much of any change if drivers shrunk to fairway wood size.  You might have some needing to get used to it sure, maybe change their delivery some but it isn't ultimately going to do a thing.

[milesgiles]

48 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

My 3/4 wood is a more reliable tee club and is only 15 yards short of my driver.  It isn't nearly has hard to flight as described.  I do have trouble shaping it with the twist face it has.  I also have old hogans, steel and persimmon, that I hit from time to time.  They are not as difficult as described here either.  

 

My steel hogan driver with a steel shaft going about 10 yards shorter than my current G410, 280 yards vs 270 yards (Launch Monitor verified).  It's more difficult to hit, but manageable.  Better players than I could certainly still smoke it 300 yards.   

 

Let’s. find. Out. 

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, clevited said:

 

You need to open your mind and realize you are ignorant to so much.  Yes, when I have a good day of timing my swing flaws I can nuke my 3w quite a few times in a row even.  I find it hard to believe that if I can do that, a pro that is orders of magnitude better than me in every way especially with swing technique and consistency cannot if they want to.  Maybe it is just because they haven't needed to that the guys you know aren't comfortable with it.  

 

I can post video of me hitting off a roughly 3/4 inch tee if it makes you eat some crow.

 

Clueless 

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Clueless 

 

Indeed you are.

[MattC555]

35 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Let’s. find. Out. 

 

My buddy, who I frequently play indoor golf with, can and does hit that hogan 300 yards.  Long hitting pro's certainly would.  Pro V1, 170+ ball speed.  He isn't hitting 300 yards with a Balata though.  Those things are a totally different animal.  Spinny, short, and easily damaged.  No thanks.   

 

If you want to regulate distance, standardizing the ball used in competitive golf makes the most sense to me.  It would allow the industry to keep pushing the envelope, while allowing governing bodies to regulate distance as needed.  I play many sports, and the ball/puck is always regulated.  I'm unconvinced it's necessary though.  I enjoy the golf I watch today as much as I did back in the late '80s and early '90s.  I prefer to play with my modern driver though.  It is more fun.  This is coming from someone who has a Sunday bag full of old Hogans and Wilson FG-17 blades.       

[Titleist99]

Let me be clear! ........The PGATOUR is an entertainment business. They want to see birdies on their tour. The tour does not want to see carnage...you can get that from the four Major tournaments.......

 

Modern golf sells on Television......If you can't understand that, Well, that's okay too.......LOL!

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, MattC555 said:

 

My buddy, who I frequently play indoor golf with, can and does hit that hogan 300 yards.  Long hitting pro's certainly would.  Pro V1, 170+ ball speed.  He isn't hitting 300 yards with a Balata though.  Those things are a totally different animal.  Spinny, short, and easily damaged.  No thanks.   

 

If you want to regulate distance, standardizing the ball used in competitive golf makes the most sense to me.  It would allow the industry to keep pushing the envelope, while allowing governing bodies to regulate distance as needed.  I play many sports, and the ball/puck is always regulated.  I'm unconvinced it's necessary though.  I enjoy the golf I watch today as much as I did back in the late '80s and early '90s.  I prefer to play with my modern driver though.  It is more fun.  This is coming from someone who has a Sunday bag full of old Hogans and Wilson FG-17 blades.       

 

theres a small difference between averaging 300.. and nutting two per round while the others are foozled short of the ladies tee

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Let me be clear! ........The PGATOUR is an entertainment business. They want to see birdies on their tour. The tour does not want to see carnage...you can get that from the four Major tournaments.......

 

Modern golf sells on Television......If you can't understand that, Well, that's okay too.......LOL!

 

odd, because we've had some very moderate scoring tournaments at the start of the year that were very well received on wrx 

[Titleist99]

8 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

odd, because we've had some very moderate scoring tournaments at the start of the year that were very well received on wrx 

You obviously don't read my posts because I've said many times that it all depends on the swing....i.e.  west coast, Florida, etc.... Thanks for making my point.

[milesgiles]

33 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

You obviously don't read my posts because I've said many times that it all depends on the swing....i.e.  west coast, Florida, etc.... Thanks for making my point.

 

does it? Riviera and Sawgrass are always popular.. whats going on there then?

[ThinkingPlus]

11 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

does it? Riviera and Sawgrass are always popular.. whats going on there then?

Because they are good, well designed golf courses that produce excellent golf and worthy champions.  You can add the Champions course at PGA National to that list as well.

[milesgiles]

11 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Because they are good, well designed golf courses that produce excellent golf and worthy champions.  You can add the Champions course at PGA National to that list as well.

 

so whats Titleist going on about when he says it depends on what State they are playing in? 

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

so whats Titleist going on about when he says it depends on what State they are playing in? 

Not really sure...

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

does it? Riviera and Sawgrass are always popular.. whats going on there then?

In case you didn't know .......its all about setup, grass type, weather conditions, etc...

For example .....Florida courses have Bermuda grasses that perform better in heat.....west coast courses usually have poa annua....so you get different scores. Florida has a flatter terrain...

 

Do you play golf at all? 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Titleist99
bette in heat

[milesgiles]

10 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

In case you didn't know .......its all about setup.

 

noo.. you said its all about 'swing' or region they are in..thinkingplus is on your side and hasnt a clue what you are on about either

 

youre babbling 

Edited April 28, 2022 by milesgiles

[Titleist99]

59 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Because they are good, well designed golf courses that produce excellent golf and worthy champions.  You can add the Champions course at PGA National to that list as well.

Agreed.....A well designed golf course will stand the test of time......

[Titleist99]

4 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

noo.. you said its all about 'swing' or region they are in..thinkingplus is on your side and hasnt a clue what you are on about either

 

youre babbling 

If you don't know the difference from the West Coast swing and the Florida Swing then I fear , I'm talking to a child........

[milesgiles]

1 minute ago, Titleist99 said:

If you don't know the difference from the West Coast swing and the Florida Swing then I fear , I'm talking to a child........

 

no one knows what you are on about

 

nurse, hes out of bed, nurse..

[naval2006]

I only read the OP and the last page.  Gosh, this shows the real meaning of the word deviation.

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, naval2006 said:

I only read the OP and the last page.  Gosh, this shows the real meaning of the word deviation.

Great avatar.  Tom Watson, my favorite player of all time.

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

odd, because we've had some very moderate scoring tournaments at the start of the year that were very well received on wrx 

Of course,  It's called balance.  Some places the scores go really low, other's not so much. 

 

So where is the problem with distance?

[milesgiles]

6 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Of course,  It's called balance.  Some places the scores go really low, other's not so much. 

 

So where is the problem with distance?

 

Again? Really??

[MattC555]

15 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

theres a small difference between averaging 300.. and nutting two per round while the others are foozled short of the ladies tee

 

I haven't the foggiest idea what this has to do with what I said.  It appears you vastly underestimate the ball striking talent of PGA Tour professionals and some amateurs.  Do you top your 3 wood off the tee on occasion?  I haven't in ages and my handicap hasn't sniffed yours in 15 years.  So....I'm clueless as to where you're coming from. 

 

Their length isn't limited to driver.  They are hitting 5 irons 230 yards, and traditional PW 140-150 yards.  Today's players are stronger and faster.  Squeeze the heads down and I imagine you'll see the average drive decrease less than 1 club length.  Young kids now watching Bryson and following shots gained based advice are out there building swings around speed.  Things are only going to get "worse" for you.  

 

 

[clevited]

@milesgiles I am curious what kind of evidence it would take to make you abandon your smaller driver head idea as any kind of solution to the perceived distance problem?  I get that you think it should just be tried because it doesn't hurt anything, but I feel like you have been given many legitimate reasons why that would be intrusive and destructive and also just plain not realistic.  I get that you think pro's feel like they have to hold back with a smaller headed club but I have given you plenty of reasons to show that to be otherwise.  I get that you think there will be some measured response from a pro when under pressure and has only a smaller headed club to use but I have given you logical reasoning to suggest otherwise.  To recap what I feel strongly are very valid and frankly overwhelming points against your idea, I have provided the list below (this may include some thoughts that I have yet to directly present to you so I can elaborate on those if you like).

 

-  In a previous thread and reiterated in this thread I showed that Rory hits his 3w proportionately as hard as his driver.  I have also provided my mid handicap abilities as anecdotal evidence that suggests if I am not worried about taking a full rip with my less than optimal or consistent swing, why would the average tour pro?

 

-You suggested that 3 wood average distance on tour shows how much less distance could be had with a switch.  I have attempted to point out that you are overlooking the loft of a 3 wood and that a "mini driver" would have much lower loft, just like a standard driver.  I can show you that the technology is there with a modern 3w.  They are just as hot as a 460 driver and have mitigated spin drastically vs 3 woods from just 10 years ago.

 

-I have given reasons to suggest that "just trying them" isn't feasible or wise.  The cost for OEMs would be enormous to provide every tour player with these special drivers just for the sake of testing.  I can also suggest that it is not fair or wise to force upon them something unfamiliar suddenly such that it can effect their livelihood or tour status short term.  You can bet that in the beginning, the "mini driver" won't suit many players as there will be few versions of them out there available to choose from.  Therefore, one of the biggest parts of the game, which is finding equipment that suits you and feels good to you etc etc would be unavailable to them for that test period.  This testing would also not yield conclusive results because the initial prototypes might suck and need revision and therefore you won't see the actual evidence of impact until years down the road.  You seem to however indicate it would be a short test, so we would never see that happen.

 

-To go along with the above, I have suggested that instead of testing on the tour, they test a handful of prototypes from each OEM and the RBs pay them for their efforts.  They can test on robots initially, and once the OEMs feel they have their best attempt, they can move on to actual player testing.  It would not be fair to ask any player to test it during a tour round.  Why would it ever be fair for anyone to test anything where they feel they may have a slight disadvantage.  They would definitely have a slight disadvantage with a smaller driver head as I already admitted to. They will definitely have a couple more wayward shots tournament.  It makes more sense financially and strategically to test the new designs thoroughly to evaluate their raw performance and use that to predict if it is worth implementing as an effective measure against distance.

 

-You don't think that a person can hit a fairway sized driver off a 1/2-3/4 inch tall tee and hit it really high in order to cut corners similar to what is sometimes done today on tour.  I have told you already what I can do as a midcap am which is I can launch a 3 wood off a roughly 3/4 inch tee at 17-20 degrees, with sub 3k spin and 170s ball speed with significant regularity especially when I am having a good day timing my early extension.  I can carry upwards of 300 yards as measured on quality launch monitors but I have also GPS'd many shots in the past when the conditions were such that I could find the ball mark on a soft fairway and the wind was zero.  I am just a faster than average AM, what could a fast pro do if they needed to???  Again, if you don't believe the above, I would be happy to post a video I already have proving it.

 

-You claim that pro's will be extremely scared to hit a small headed driver when there is a tournament on the line.  I have provided you with the fact that pro's don't seem to get overly nervous and choose to bunt the "toaster on a stick" instead of hit the right club for the hole.  They still use the fairway wood or long iron off the tee if that is the correct play.  Its almost as if they are really good at hitting the middle to such a degree that they aren't worried about thinning it, or blocking it, or pulling it or something even though there is always a chance it could happen with any club.  They would have to be so nervous that it practically won't matter what club they hit imo, they are going to screw up the shot.  You would need GPS guided golf balls in order to make what you think happens with the "toaster on a stick" happen.

 

Now, if you want to propose a broader package deal that would create the effects you want, I am all ears.  I am interested in seeing those ideas even though I am 100% against it.  We can debate them and I promise you, if I think it would get the job done and not be drastically intrusive and damaging to the sport, I would entertain the idea of it potentially happening.  This would be similar to my thoughts about holding vintage tour events in order to give the idea of basically making the sport even harder a chance to naturally take root in the golfing population.  To me, that would be the least intrusive way to introduce the idea and if it has merit, it will take effect and you will get your wish.  

Edited April 29, 2022 by clevited

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

@milesgiles I am curious what kind of evidence it would take to make you abandon your smaller driver head idea as any kind of solution to the perceived distance problem?  I get that you think it should just be tried because it doesn't hurt anything, but I feel like you have been given many legitimate reasons why that would be intrusive and destructive and also just plain not realistic.  I get that you think pro's feel like they have to hold back with a smaller headed club but I have given you plenty of reasons to show that to be otherwise.  I get that you think there will be some measured response from a pro when under pressure and has only a smaller headed club to use but I have given you logical reasoning to suggest otherwise.  To recap what I feel strongly are very valid and frankly overwhelming points against your idea, I have provided the list below (this may include some thoughts that I have yet to directly present to you so I can elaborate on those if you like).

 

-  In a previous thread and reiterated in this thread I showed that Rory hits his 3w proportionately as hard as his driver.  I have also provided my mid handicap abilities as anecdotal evidence that suggests if I am not worried about taking a full rip with my less than optimal or consistent swing, why would the average tour pro?

 

-You suggested that 3 wood average distance on tour shows how much less distance could be had with a switch.  I have attempted to point out that you are overlooking the loft of a 3 wood and that a "mini driver" would have much lower loft, just like a standard driver.  I can show you that the technology is there with a modern 3w.  They are just as hot as a 460 driver and have mitigated spin drastically vs 3 woods from just 10 years ago.

 

-I have given reasons to suggest that "just trying them" isn't feasible or wise.  The cost for OEMs would be enormous to provide every tour player with these special drivers just for the sake of testing.  I can also suggest that it is not fair or wise to force upon them something unfamiliar suddenly such that it can effect their livelihood or tour status short term.  You can bet that in the beginning, the "mini driver" won't suit many players as there will be few versions of them out there available to choose from.  Therefore, one of the biggest parts of the game, which is finding equipment that suits you and feels good to you etc etc would be unavailable to them for that test period.  This testing would also not yield conclusive results because the initial prototypes might suck and need revision and therefore you won't see the actual evidence of impact until years down the road.  You seem to however indicate it would be a short test, so we would never see that happen.

 

-To go along with the above, I have suggested that instead of testing on the tour, they test a handful of prototypes from each OEM and the RBs pay them for their efforts.  They can test on robots initially, and once the OEMs feel they have their best attempt, they can move on to actual player testing.  It would not be fair to ask any player to test it during a tour round.  Why would it ever be fair for anyone to test anything where they feel they may have a slight disadvantage.  They would definitely have a slight disadvantage with a smaller driver head as I already admitted to. They will definitely have a couple more wayward shots tournament.  It makes more sense financially and strategically to test the new designs thoroughly to evaluate their raw performance and use that to predict if it is worth implementing as an effective measure against distance.

 

-You don't think that a person can hit a fairway sized driver off a 1/2-3/4 inch tall tee and hit it really high in order to cut corners similar to what is sometimes done today on tour.  I have told you already what I can do as a midcap am which is I can launch a 3 wood off a roughly 3/4 inch tee at 17-20 degrees, with sub 3k spin and 170s ball speed with significant regularity especially when I am having a good day timing my early extension.  I can carry upwards of 300 yards as measured on quality launch monitors but I have also GPS'd many shots in the past when the conditions were such that I could find the ball mark on a soft fairway and the wind was zero.  I am just a faster than average AM, what could a fast pro do if they needed to???  Again, if you don't believe the above, I would be happy to post a video I already have proving it.

 

-You claim that pro's will be extremely scared to hit a small headed driver when there is a tournament on the line.  I have provided you with the fact that pro's don't seem to get overly nervous and choose to bunt the "toaster on a stick" instead of hit the right club for the hole.  They still use the fairway wood or long iron off the tee if that is the correct play.  Its almost as if they are really good at hitting the middle to such a degree that they aren't worried about thinning it, or blocking it, or pulling it or something even though there is always a chance it could happen with any club.  They would have to be so nervous that it practically won't matter what club they hit imo, they are going to screw up the shot.  You would need GPS guided golf balls in order to make what you think happens with the "toaster on a stick" happen.

 

Now, if you want to propose a broader package deal that would create the effects you want, I am all ears.  I am interested in seeing those ideas even though I am 100% against it.  We can debate them and I promise you, if I think it would get the job done and not be drastically intrusive and damaging to the sport, I would entertain the idea of it potentially happening.  This would be similar to my thoughts about holding vintage tour events in order to give the idea of basically making the sport even harder a chance to naturally take root in the golfing population.  To me, that would be the least intrusive way to introduce the idea and if it has merit, it will take effect and you will get your wish.  

 

Skim read

 

you have no frame of reference. You can’t break 80 and have never played in a significant tournament. You haven’t played with or followed a tour pro, or watched high level golf ever in person.

 

Almost all of what you say is a wrong because of this

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, MattC555 said:

 

I haven't the foggiest idea what this has to do with what I said.  It appears you vastly underestimate the ball striking talent of PGA Tour professionals and some amateurs.  Do you top your 3 wood off the tee on occasion?  I haven't in ages and my handicap hasn't sniffed yours in 15 years.  So....I'm clueless as to where you're coming from. 

 

Their length isn't limited to driver.  They are hitting 5 irons 230 yards, and traditional PW 140-150 yards.  Today's players are stronger and faster.  Squeeze the heads down and I imagine you'll see the average drive decrease less than 1 club length.  Young kids now watching Bryson and following shots gained based advice are out there building swings around speed.  Things are only going to get "worse" for you.  

 

 

 

The circumstances are totally different. Me in a monthly medal, them with history and a 7 or 8 figure cheque on the line. One does not equate to the other even remotely