distance debate

[milesgiles]

52 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Yes it is more entertaining.

 

It won't be 280 vs 300, it might be 298 vs 300 though.

 

cool, the toaster is only worth 0.66% distance, lets get rid no one will even notice 

[milesgiles]

55 minutes ago, clevited said:

@milesgiles

 

Serious question.  I know you have been on a bit of a quest for speed yourself.  Have you come to understand how insanely hard it is to carry 300 plus and keep it in play yet?  You being such a low capper I figured you must know.

 

you told me it wasnt hard at all, even with a traditional size club, and relative to me youre rubbish (no offence)

Edited May 10, 2022 by milesgiles

[MUNIGRIT]

Using a traditional sized (whatever that is) will only affect the amatuers. I dont think these guys miss the center much. Show me a 3 wood that has been in a pros bag awhile that doesn't look like this. Pretty sure if they can repeat this wear mark on fairway woods they won't have a problem with whatever a traditional sized driver is. 

[ThinkingPlus]

11 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

I'm not a pro by any means but it's a lot easier than it used to be. I keep getting longer and longer despite getting older. And I play twice a month at best. But I also don't subscribe to rolling back clubhead size, they would never roll it back far enough to make a difference at this point.

Is your clubhead speed increasing or just ball speed?

[clevited]

Just now, milesgiles said:

 

you to.d me it wasnt hard at all, even with a traditional size club, and relative to me youre rubbish (no offence)

 

Once again, you misrepresent me.  You claim it is stupid easy, I have always claimed it is much more difficult than you think and that pros just make it look easy when they are playing well.  I demonstrate that I can achieve it multiple times in a row as a midcapper, and use that as evidence to suggest a pro can do it almost all the time if I can do it when I have my timing down.  My swing can vary drastically day to day, pro swings don't vary nearly so much.

 

Once again, I will repeat to you that pro's won't hold back with a fairway wood sized head because they are really good and because they don't with a 3w already.  You maintain they do even though I have provided evidence to the contrary multiple times. 

 

I will also repeat, why change it if it doesn't solve the problem you have with pro golf?  Why invest the millions of dollars to make special clubs that use vastly different molds to make them than what is used by the masses?  It will certainly negatively effect the industry not help it if you actually think it through.  It will also filter down to the amateur level and basically force us all to use the smaller drivers which will indee hurt the high handicapper but not so much the pro. 

 

Do you even read your own posts or the posts of others or are you just that disenguous?  I can't help but describe you in that way because you don't act genuine in any way, you are just laughing as you repeat the same garbage over and over and add absolutely nothing to the conversation.  You are quite possibly the most toxic forum poster I have ever seen on here 

[clevited]

11 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

you to.d me it wasnt hard at all, even with a traditional size club, and relative to me youre rubbish (no offence)

 

You also didn't answer the question.  Yes or no do you know how hard it is to control a 300 plus yard carry on the golf course or not?  Even with toasters on a stick, you have to have extremely good mechanics and repeatability to not hit it into crap off the tee.

 

 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

16 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Is your clubhead speed increasing or just ball speed?

 

Club head speed is more or less the same (I've probably gained some back recently due to sorting out my hip turn), ball speed has ticked up and that's with "old" tech (2016). And irons are half a club to a club longer despite playing the same type of blade I've always played. Which is why I favor doing something to the ball. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, gvogel said:

When one designs a course like that, and it stifles driving, I think that it is pretty contrived.  And why would one want to stifle driving anyway, when long straight driving is one of the great skills in golf.

 

Better to cut back the overall driving distance so that the long, straight drivers have their advantage.

Nope, no tricking up the golf equipment......

[milesgiles]

18 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Once again, you misrepresent me.  You claim it is stupid easy, I have always claimed it is much more difficult than you think and that pros just make it look easy when they are playing well.  I demonstrate that I can achieve it multiple times in a row as a midcapper, and use that as evidence to suggest a pro can do it almost all the time if I can do it when I have my timing down.  My swing can vary drastically day to day, pro swings don't vary nearly so much.

 

Once again, I will repeat to you that pro's won't hold back with a fairway wood sized head because they are really good and because they don't with a 3w already.  You maintain they do even though I have provided evidence to the contrary multiple times. 

 

I will also repeat, why change it if it doesn't solve the problem you have with pro golf?  Why invest the millions of dollars to make special clubs that use vastly different molds to make them than what is used by the masses?  It will certainly negatively effect the industry not help it if you actually think it through.  It will also filter down to the amateur level and basically force us all to use the smaller drivers which will indee hurt the high handicapper but not so much the pro. 

 

Do you even read your own posts or the posts of others or are you just that disenguous?  I can't help but describe you in that way because you don't act genuine in any way, you are just laughing as you repeat the same garbage over and over and add absolutely nothing to the conversation.  You are quite possibly the most toxic forum poster I have ever seen on here 

 

you as a midcapper says it wont affect pro's

 

Price, Faldo, Lyle, Woosnam, McIlroy, Woods etc etc all say the 460 is much easier to hit and you couldnt swing flat out with a traditional size club. Not a one of them has claimed they are so good it makes no difference.

 

Guess who's evidence I prefer to give regard to

[milesgiles]

18 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

You also didn't answer the question.  Yes or no do you know how hard it is to control a 300 plus yard carry on the golf course or not?  Even with toasters on a stick, you have to have extremely good mechanics and repeatability to not hit it into crap off the tee.

 

 

 

I can't carry it 300 and never will, but at a tad less than flat out no I dont find it hard to hit it straight at all, and my swing is far from perfect

[clevited]

5 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

you as a midcapper says it wont affect pro's

 

Price, Faldo, Lyle, Woosnam, McIlroy, Woods etc etc all say the 460 is much easier to hit and you couldnt swing flat out with a traditional size club. Not a one of them has claimed they are so good it makes no difference.

 

Guess who's evidence I prefer to give regard to

 

Post the quotes, with their context as I have asked before.  Traditional size has multiple meanings to multiple people and doesn't consider CG location, and MOI.  There are also materials to consider.  You are being extremally general with your 3w size idea as are Faldo and Tiger etc.  This is the point I have been trying to make for dozens of pages to you but it doesn't seem to get through.  You are either an idiot, or disingenuous.  I don't think you are an idiot, so it has to be the latter of the two. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by clevited

[clevited]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I can't carry it 300 and never will, but at a tad less than flat out no I dont find it hard to hit it straight at all, and my swing is far from perfect

 

Then you don't understand how hard it is.  Your flat out then is nowhere near mine, nor the fastest pro's or most pro's likely.  Talk to me once you get there.  I expect you to be dining on some humble pie.

[ThinkingPlus]

20 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I can't carry it 300 and never will, but at a tad less than flat out no I dont find it hard to hit it straight at all, and my swing is far from perfect

What is "straight" to you?  Not trying to be tricky.  Straight for me needs to be hitting 20 - 30 yard wide fairways which I can't consistently do.

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

Yes it is more entertaining.

 

It won't be 280 vs 300, it might be 298 vs 300 though.

What's entertaining is the player who is 15 to 20 paces longer than the guys he is playing with.  He might be hitting it 285 (like in 1985), or 315 (like now).  Total distance is meaningless without knowing how the other guys are playing.

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, gvogel said:

What's entertaining is the player who is 15 to 20 paces longer than the guys he is playing with.  He might be hitting it 285 (like in 1985), or 315 (like now).  Total distance is meaningless without knowing how the other guys are playing.

 

I find it entertaining because it is all relative.  As an Am, I know how hard that is to do.  I have a unique perspective.  I have the athleticism to create similar speed to some of the fastest on tour, and I have practiced hard to get the most out of what I got through equipment and technique (I had aspirations to pursue long drive but then I had kids). The difference is, I am inconsistent because I don't have a beautiful efficient and consistent swing, I am not nearly as talented with hand eye coordination as they are, and I also do not have as much time to practice as a pro does.  I can appreciate how much talent they have, and how much bravery they have, and mental strength, and confidence they have to use that kind of speed on the course, toaster on a stick or not.  

 

I would like to add some context to the above.  When I have my timing down, I can make my not very repeatable swing, pretty darn repeatable for a while.  For a period of time, I get to feel what it must feel like to be a pro (well to a certain extent).  My confidence grows, and I can essentially swing as hard as I want and know I will find the middle on all of my clubs.  I just swing and the ball gets in the way.  The path my club takes is almost identical swing to swing and I don't have to worry about trying to hit a tiny white ball, it just happens.  

 

Once you have the above, you can make golf look incredibly easy on your best days.  I don't have all of the other tools to make my golf game complete on those days, but man do I look like a pro to a novice for a few swings.  Then reality crashes down when they see me misjudge that wedge shot, or leave a putt way short, or leave one short out of a bunker.  The game is much, much more than hitting a little ball with a club and make it go far.  

[milesgiles]

41 minutes ago, gvogel said:

What's entertaining is the player who is 15 to 20 paces longer than the guys he is playing with.  He might be hitting it 285 (like in 1985), or 315 (like now).  Total distance is meaningless without knowing how the other guys are playing.

 

100%. Make the driver harder to hit straight and you'll see they guys with genuine skill AND speed take lines others cant take. As it should be.

[milesgiles]

45 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What is "straight" to you?  Not trying to be tricky.  Straight for me needs to be hitting 20 - 30 yard wide fairways which I can't consistently do.

 

20 probably not, 30 certainly (at 100-105mph anyway)

[ThinkingPlus]

10 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

20 probably not, 30 certainly (at 100-105mph anyway)

I'm not that good.  I expend a lot of effort just getting to 90 mph.  I move around too much and hit it offline.  I get away with it because I usually don't have to hit driver.  When I do I must have a good day with driver to score.

[clevited]

18 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

20 probably not, 30 certainly (at 100-105mph anyway)

 

Just a little context into the difference between you and me (try and resist the urge to get cute with that).  You get it slightly wrong, you are still in that 30 yard fairway with a 6 degree push.  I am in the hazard or water potentially.  You get it wrong not only with a 6 deg push, but also a 5 degree spin axis fade you still hold the 30 yard fairway (close enough), I am in trouble.  It only gets worse as the miss gets worse.  The "toaster" is plenty difficult to master.

 

Additionally, this doesn't even take into account the differences in obstacles we need to avoid.  You might hold a generous fairway while I am trying to hit a narrow area.  The smart play is to lay up which is what pro's often do in those situations.

 

Edit: This also doesn't take into account the wind's effects.  My ball will be up above the trees, yours will not.  My ball is in the air a full second longer which can make it significantly more offline.  

 

 

Edit:  Actually this would be for a 60 yard wide fairway if you are assuming the aim spot is right down the middle.  Or a 30 yard fairway if you aimed down the left side.

Edited May 10, 2022 by clevited

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What is "straight" to you?  Not trying to be tricky.  Straight for me needs to be hitting 20 - 30 yard wide fairways which I can't consistently do.

Nor can the average PGATOUR player......the tour accuracy average is 60-67%

Even with toasters on a stick, they still hit it crooked but according to some driving is too easy.......LOL!

Edited May 10, 2022 by Titleist99

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Titleist99 said:

Nor can the average PGATOUR player......the tour accuracy average is 59.77%

Even with toasters on a stick, they still hit it crooked but according to some driving is too easy.......LOL!

They hit it way farther than I.  I'm just not very good with driver partly because I only have to hit it 5 times at my home course.  Just don't practice or play it enough.

[So_Cal]

Fairways could be made much wider and strategic if distance tech wasn’t so out of wack relative to courses.  It would be exciting to see who can really drive the ball well organically. 

[Titleist99]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

They hit it way farther than I.  I'm just not very good with driver partly because I only have to hit it 5 times at my home course.  Just don't practice or play it enough.

Don't worry, you'll do better when you get one the size of a small three wood......LOL!

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

Post the quotes, with their context as I have asked before.  Traditional size has multiple meanings to multiple people and doesn't consider CG location, and MOI.  There are also materials to consider.  You are being extremally general with your 3w size idea as are Faldo and Tiger etc.  This is the point I have been trying to make for dozens of pages to you but it doesn't seem to get through.  You are either an idiot, or disingenuous.  I don't think you are an idiot, so it has to be the latter of the two. 

 

ryder cups and majors galore. Then there's you..

 

 

poulter 'would still be sellin mars bars'

 

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/watch-ian-poulter-hilariously-struggles-to-hit-a-persimmon-driver

 

woosnam would reduce the size of the driver head

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/british-open-2018-ian-woosnam-pitches-blowing-up-the-old-course-and-other-radical-ideas-to-the-randa

 

Faldo

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by milesgiles

[Mirsir69]

Adding pure distance is not the only way to make a course play tougher. I’ve played some ridiculously long course, Painted Valley in Utah at over 8,000 yards (it’s at elevation so it doesn’t play that long), two courses in South Africa sitting at 8,400 yards, and the shoals golf club in Alabama, which I also believe is right around 8,000 yards. I’ve also played a ridiculously short, 2,800 9 hole par 34 golf course in a rural canyon town and that played significantly tougher than the before mentioned. On tour they should reward guys who hit the fairway and play smart golf, punish errant shots into the rough with thick cuts that grab the club head and force guys to play clean. I think that too often the second cut on tour is too short. If you have guys driving the golf ball 340 and are hitting it straight down the fairway, or bending it left and right but getting it to go where they want it too that should be rewarded! Course conditions, flag placement, and other set up items should challenge the players more, not just the length of the course. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Mirsir69

[milesgiles]

29 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Just a little context into the difference between you and me (try and resist the urge to get cute with that).  You get it slightly wrong, you are still in that 30 yard fairway with a 6 degree push.  I am in the hazard or water potentially.  You get it wrong not only with a 6 deg push, but also a 5 degree spin axis fade you still hold the 30 yard fairway (close enough), I am in trouble.  It only gets worse as the miss gets worse.  The "toaster" is plenty difficult to master.

 

Additionally, this doesn't even take into account the differences in obstacles we need to avoid.  You might hold a generous fairway while I am trying to hit a narrow area.  The smart play is to lay up which is what pro's often do in those situations.

 

Edit: This also doesn't take into account the wind's effects.  My ball will be up above the trees, yours will not.  My ball is in the air a full second longer which can make it significantly more offline.  

 

 

Edit:  Actually this would be for a 60 yard wide fairway if you are assuming the aim spot is right down the middle.  Or a 30 yard fairway if you aimed down the left side.

 

I feel your swing would improve considerably if I forced you to hit a 190cc ON THE COURSE 

[Danielson]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What is "straight" to you?  Not trying to be tricky.  Straight for me needs to be hitting 20 - 30 yard wide fairways which I can't consistently do.

What course has a 20 yard wide fairway? I need to make sure I never accidentally wind up there, the lost balls would bankrupt me.

 

  

10 minutes ago, Mirsir69 said:

Adding pure distance is not the only way to make a course play tougher. I’ve played some ridiculously long course, Painted Valley in Utah at over 8,000 yards (it’s at elevation so it doesn’t play that long), two courses in South Africa sitting at 8,400 yards, and the shoals golf club in Alabama, which I also believe is right around 8,000 yards. I’ve also played a ridiculously short, 2,800 9 hole par 34 golf course in a rural canyon town and that played significantly tougher than the before mentioned. On tour they should reward guys who hit the fairway and play smart golf, punish arrant shots into the rough with thick cuts that grab the club head and force guys to play clean golf. I think that too often the second cut on tour is too short. If you have guys driving the golf ball 340 and are hitting it straight down the fairway, or bending it left and right but getting it to go where they want it too that should be rewarded! Course conditions, flag placement, and other set up items should challenge the players more, not just the length of the course. 

 

We saw at Bethpage when Brooks won, and Winged Foot when Bryson won that long rough just isn't that much of a deterrent. You're actually better off being a long ball hitter because you're hitting a wedge out the deep s*** instead of an 8 iron. These guys shouldn't be on equal footing with players who hit it 40 yards shorter, but it seems like at this point there's no real penalty for missing the fairway because these guys can still generate so much spin. I'm coming around to the idea that we don't have a distance problem but there is a LOT of room for improvement on tour course design and setup. I'd be interested to see what happens if they started shaving down the green surrounds everywhere and putting flags in borderline unpinnable spots.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Danielson

[clevited]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

ryder cups and majors galore. Then there's you..

 

 

poulter 'would still be sellin mars bars'

 

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/watch-ian-poulter-hilariously-struggles-to-hit-a-persimmon-driver

 

woosnam would reduce the size of the driver head

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/british-open-2018-ian-woosnam-pitches-blowing-up-the-old-course-and-other-radical-ideas-to-the-randa

 

Faldo

 

 

Seen/read all of the above, but at least you are finally making a more honest effort.  

 

-Poulter, let him rummage through a bunch of persimmons and get used to it with some practice, then talk to me.  I am sure he will get along fine even with his "ball striking" reputation.

 

-Woosie doesn't specify anything other than make head sizes smaller, still does nothing to support your 3w sized driver.  I have been asking you for additional changes beyond just size such that your vision would actually happen.  So far you refuse to admit your idea isn't enough, not even close.

 

-Faldo, have seen his interview have read his stuff, have seen his commentary where he mentions things like this.  Same issue, smaller heads...what size does it really need to be? where is the CG?, MOI?, face depth and width?, Max/min loft?, change max allowed length?, overall weight of the club be limited? CT?..........This is what I am looking for, details that make it actually a viable idea. 

 

Elaborate please on your idea as it requires it.

 

[clevited]

5 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I feel your swing would improve considerably if I forced you to hit a 190cc ON THE COURSE 

 

I am not afraid of my 3 wood, 5 wood, 4i-LW at all.  Swing stays the same.

[ThinkingPlus]

5 minutes ago, Danielson said:

What course has a 20 yard wide fairway? I need to make sure I never accidentally wind up there, the lost balls would bankrupt me.

They exist.  Not every hole, but a few around here.  Some are technically wider, but part of the fairway is obscured by a large tree near the landing area.  Hit that part of the fairway and have no shot.  Feels good.

 

Our 14th fairway squeezes down to 15 yards between left cart path and right fairway bunker at 230 yards from the forward tees.  Ten yards left of the cart path is a pond.  Right of the fairway bunker are trees.  You must carry the bunker (I don't have the horsepower) or thread the needle with a baby cut.  Gives me a hybrid to get on in 2 (par 5) to a long skinny green that is 10 yards deep.  Fun for the whole family!