Sergio Garcia Ruling Error

[DaveLeeNC]

Yesterday (or maybe Thursday) at the Wells Fargo event Sergio was looking for his ball in a penalty area and found it. But he was told by an official in the area that his 3 minute search time had elapsed. On further review is was 'discovered' that a portion of this time had been spent trying to get across the creek and should not have counted as part of the 3 minutes (SG had been told that his ball was on the other side). So Sergio was forced to treat the ball as being lost in a penalty area, despite Sergio's objections. All the coverage has been on Sergio's behavior and not on the actual situation (did Sergio have a play from the PA, etc), but it seems clear that this error was caused by the fact that the RO was actually not very close to the action so was unaware of what was really going on here. 

 

It is kind of surprising that this could not have been properly sorted out at the time, but the details have been left out and replaced by many slightly obnoxious quotes from Sergio. But interesting from a rules perspective. The significant fact here seems to be that the RO started the clock when 'Sergio entered the hazard' which (in this case) was not the right standard for when a search starts (RO was not close by, BTW). 

 

dave 

 

 

 

 

 

[jordan2240]

Perhaps the PGA tour should allow a player to protest a ruling and play the shot as the player determines it should be played, and after the round when a review is made, if the player was deemed to be correct, score stands, if incorrect, 2 stroke penalty.  I realize in other sports officials make mistakes all the time that the teams/players must simply live with, but because golf is very much a self-regulating sport where the players are often as aware of the rules as anyone, it might be well-suited for such a system.

[DaveLeeNC]

13 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

Perhaps the PGA tour should allow a player to protest a ruling and play the shot as the player determines it should be played, and after the round when a review is made, if the player was deemed to be correct, score stands, if incorrect, 2 stroke penalty.  I realize in other sports officials make mistakes all the time that the teams/players must simply live with, but because golf is very much a self-regulating sport where the players are often as aware of the rules as anyone, it might be well-suited for such a system.

 

I think you can play 2 balls (or that has been done under earlier RoG). But the details of how this event played out are unclear so .... 

 

dave

Edited May 7, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[Shilgy]

In this case perhaps the PGA Tour released that statement just to ….(hmm can’t say that on here).let’s say irk Sergio further with no penalty rescinded.

Perhaps the PGA..not the tour…should tell him since he’s declared for the Saudi league he’s not welcome at the PGA Championship.  Adios! 🤣

[Jeff58]

Personally, I see this as a bit odd. Perhaps others with more knowledge will see it differently.

 

- Player hits shot that appears to enter a hazard area.

- Using the best information available, player begins search.

- If ball is not found within time limit ball is declared lost.

 

In Sergio’s case, the ruling correction appears to be based on not searching in the correct area. If that’s the case, if the ball is not found, then the search was conducted in the wrong area. Since the correct area can only be determined by locating the ball, the player effectively has infinite time to determine the “correct area of search”.

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I think you can play 2 balls (or that has been done under earlier RoG). But the details of how this event played out are unclear so .... 

 

dave

Playing 2 balls wouldn't have helped here ...

 

Maybe Sergio couldn't have signed his card? Not sign his card until he had fully looked into getting an explanation for the Tour?

[davep043]

1 hour ago, jordan2240 said:

golf is very much a self-regulating sport where the players are often as aware of the rules as anyone

I think recent issues with Keegan Bradley and Charlie Hoffman might suggest that players really aren't that aware of the rules.  

 

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I think you can play 2 balls (or that has been done under earlier RoG)

If there's a question as to what the rules require, you can play two balls under Rule 20.1c(3).  However, I don't believe this would qualify, the Official has made a ruling, and that ruling is final.  The player can request a second opinion, but the official isn't required to get the second opinion.  The player has no right to appeal that ruling.  This is all in 20.2a.  

1 minute ago, Jeff58 said:

In Sergio’s case, the ruling correction appears to be based on not searching in the correct area.

As I read it, Sergio was looking for a place to cross the stream in order to begin looking for his ball.  

 

In hindsight, the official in this case didn't have complete information, and wasn't on the 10th hole when Sergio hit his drive.  I can understand that when he comes into view, and sees Sergio looking for a place to cross the creek, he believes Sergio is looking for his ball, and starts the "clock".  Its fair to ask why he didn't ask for additional information, from spectators, spotters, anyone who did have a view of the whole episode.  Its also fair to wonder if Sergio had begun his conversation with the official with a calm explanation (I haven't seen video that started at the very beginning), the official might have been more willing to do more to get that information.  Officials are human, they can be influenced by the way they are treated, as much as they strive to be neutral.

[DaveLeeNC]

11 minutes ago, davep043 said:

If there's a question as to what the rules require, you can play two balls under Rule 20.1c(3).  However, I don't believe this would qualify, the Official has made a ruling, and that ruling is final.  The player can request a second opinion, but the official isn't required to get the second opinion.  The player has no right to appeal that ruling.  This is all in 20.2a.

 

I believe that this is the relevant rule (and I need to burn my Player's Edition of the rules - it is so incomplete). dave

 

[jordan2240]

19 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I think recent issues with Keegan Bradley and Charlie Hoffman might suggest that players really aren't that aware of the rules.  

Which is fine.  If a player makes a protest and loses, he gets penalized 2 shots, so it would behoove him to be pretty darn sure he's correct.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, it is not at all clear (from what has been reported) if Sergio had a playable option from inside the PA  had the RO known that 3 minutes had not elapsed. dave

[dvq9654]

These type of situations highlight why many people fail to play by the rules of golf, either inadvertently or purposefully. If the top tour on the planet can't get simple concepts right (e.g., when the search starts), your typical amateur doesn't stand a chance. 

 

It also seems odd that a player can be penalized after the round yet they couldn't work this out to Sergio's benefit before he signed the card. Perhaps that's not allowed given the way things unfolded, but I don't like the optics. Rules indicate otherwise I'm sure and I'm not saying one shouldn't follow the rules, but this situation doesn't feel right even if the rules were followed. 

[Mr. Bean]

56 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Playing 2 balls wouldn't have helped here ...

 

 

Not by normal standards. However, should the referee have been uncertain of the search time elapsed he could have let Sergio to play 2 balls in order to gain time to gather sufficient information to find the final ruling. That is, if Sergio had his original ball playable from the PA. If not, everything discussed here is a moot.

[T2WIN]

Exactly why you never make a comment on something until you know all the facts. Those who were attacking Sergio because of what he said and how he acted when they didn't know all the facts need to learn this lesson. Turns out Sergio was justified in his actions and was right. Play on Sergio...

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, T2WIN said:

Exactly why you never make a comment on something until you know all the facts. Those who were attacking Sergio because of what he said and how he acted when they didn't know all the facts need to learn this lesson. Turns out Sergio was justified in his actions and was right. Play on Sergio...

Sergio did get a bad ruling, no doubt.  Sergio also acted like a spoiled brat.  In essence he said "players won't ever get bad rulings on the other tour".  Both sides can be wrong, and in this case both sides WERE wrong.

[T2WIN]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Sergio did get a bad ruling, no doubt.  Sergio also acted like a spoiled brat.  In essence he said "players won't ever get bad rulings on the other tour".  Both sides can be wrong, and in this case both sides WERE wrong.

That's your opinion and we are all allowed to have one. I believe most would have acted in a similar manner as Sergio did because he knew and felt he was right and was getting a bad deal. Now on his comment if he made it that "players won't ever get bad rulings on the other tour", most of us know this is probably not going to be the case because humans make mistakes. I'm sure this comment was made in the heat of the moment and as said before, we all have said some stupid things when we were mad. My main point here as posted above was that I've learned through life that you should never judge or comment on something unless you know all the facts. 

[DaveLeeNC]

58 minutes ago, T2WIN said:

That's your opinion and we are all allowed to have one. I believe most would have acted in a similar manner as Sergio did because he knew and felt he was right and was getting a bad deal. Now on his comment if he made it that "players won't ever get bad rulings on the other tour", most of us know this is probably not going to be the case because humans make mistakes. I'm sure this comment was made in the heat of the moment and as said before, we all have said some stupid things when we were mad. My main point here as posted above was that I've learned through life that you should never judge or comment on something unless you know all the facts. 

 

I understand SG's anger over this. But he didn't act in his own best interests in this case. I have never been a RO but this seems like a pretty egregious mistake to me. It really is important (in lots of places) to 'know what you don't know'. 

 

dave

Edited May 7, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[Notashank]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

In this case perhaps the PGA Tour released that statement just to ….(hmm can’t say that on here).let’s say irk Sergio further with no penalty rescinded.

Perhaps the PGA..not the tour…should tell him since he’s declared for the Saudi league he’s not welcome at the PGA Championship.  Adios! 🤣

Maybe the tour should learn the rules. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, T2WIN said:

That's your opinion and we are all allowed to have one. I believe most would have acted in a similar manner as Sergio did because he knew and felt he was right and was getting a bad deal. 

 

I bet there are lots of us who would argue in a civilized manner instead of arguing like a spoiled brat.

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I understand SG's anger over this. But he didn't act in his own best interests in this case. I have never been a RO but this seems like a pretty egregious mistake to me. It really is important (in lots of places) to 'know what you don't know'. 

 

 

Wow.... it seems you have never made any mistakes due to the fact you did not have all the tools...

[DaveLeeNC]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Wow.... it seems you have never made any mistakes due to the fact you did not have all the tools...

I have no idea what tools you are referring to here. And I have no idea what my perfection (or lack of perfection) has to do with my comment. 

 

dave

[Hawkeye77]

5 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

These type of situations highlight why many people fail to play by the rules of golf, either inadvertently or purposefully. If the top tour on the planet can't get simple concepts right (e.g., when the search starts), your typical amateur doesn't stand a chance. 

 

Nonsense.

 

Failing to play by the rules has nothing to do with rulings on the Tour.  This one was wrong, virtually all are correct, big deal.  

 

People don't play by the rules because they just don't care or because it provides them with faux lower scores.

 

The rules most people need to know to play golf are pretty easy to learn, kids enjoy learning them for heaven's sake.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, Notashank said:

Maybe the tour should learn the rules. 

Of course they know the rules…and yes the referee was incorrect in this case.  As others have mentioned…perhaps if Sergio had been more polite with his protests the referee could have gathered the pertinent information sooner. 

[Notashank]

6 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Of course they know the rules…and yes the referee was incorrect in this case.  As others have mentioned…perhaps if Sergio had been more polite with his protests the referee could have gathered the pertinent information sooner. 

Sergio knew he was right and the rules official was wrong. They are playing for millions of dollars. The official needs to know. 

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Notashank said:

Sergio knew he was right and the rules official was wrong. They are playing for millions of dollars. The official needs to know. 

 

Argentina won the soccer World Cup in 1986 partly with a goal made by hand. Tell me again that the referee needs to know and I will tell you that everybody makes mistakes.

[Newby]

5 hours ago, Notashank said:

Sergio knew he was right and the rules official was wrong. They are playing for millions of dollars. The official needs to know. 

The referee knew the rule but wasn't aware of all the information.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

20 hours ago, T2WIN said:

Exactly why you never make a comment on something until you know all the facts. Those who were attacking Sergio because of what he said and how he acted when they didn't know all the facts need to learn this lesson. Turns out Sergio was justified in his actions and was right. Play on Sergio...

So cause Sergio was justified. That gives him a pass to act like a child and ramble on about something that had nothing to do with the situation?

[antip]

This was an unfortunate incident all round. Yes, the RO made an unfortunate mistake on the time search clock. But it also looks clear to me that the player did not have the rules knowledge to explain on the spot why the RO got it wrong - that the search did not commence until the player got to the known vicinity of the ball. If the player had understood the rules sufficiently, IMO, this would have been raised with the RO on the spot and would have been sorted quickly and correctly, possibly with the RO getting input from the video centre if there were doubts. To be clear, I'm not blaming the player here, just making the point that if the player knew the rules well enough it would have been a simple matter to get the RO on the right track.  

[Dpavs]

26 minutes ago, antip said:

This was an unfortunate incident all round. Yes, the RO made an unfortunate mistake on the time search clock. But it also looks clear to me that the player did not have the rules knowledge to explain on the spot why the RO got it wrong - that the search did not commence until the player got to the known vicinity of the ball. If the player had understood the rules sufficiently, IMO, this would have been raised with the RO on the spot and would have been sorted quickly and correctly, possibly with the RO getting input from the video centre if there were doubts. To be clear, I'm not blaming the player here, just making the point that if the player knew the rules well enough it would have been a simple matter to get the RO on the right track.  

 

I thought it was made clear to the RO. At one point I heard Sergio say that his search did not begin until he got on the other side of the creek and the RO admit that would be different regarding the start time for the search. Given the RO's statement that the result would be different he asked the RO if that meant he could play the ball but the RO indicated nope no dice. I am sure this was true because from the RO's perspective at that point he would have no idea as to how much additional time should be allotted even if he did make a mistake as to the start time. This was just plain and simple a bad call by the RO IMO.

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Argentina won the soccer World Cup in 1986 partly with a goal made by hand. Tell me again that the referee needs to know and I will tell you that everybody makes mistakes.

Wasn’t a players hand though…😎 Some entity a bit higher.

 

 

[LeoLeo99]

21 hours ago, davep043 said:

Sergio did get a bad ruling, no doubt.  Sergio also acted like a spoiled brat.  In essence he said "players won't ever get bad rulings on the other tour".  Both sides can be wrong, and in this case both sides WERE wrong.

I would not assume the other tour will play by the exact same ROG.  If you're going to be iconoclast, go all the way!