Senior Player Steel be Graphite Shaft

[Carolina Golfer 2]

Age 63 with 74 to 76 mph 7 iron swing speed.  What some generously call moderate 😬

 

For the last 3-4 years I’ve primarily used graphite iron shafts Recoil 460, 680, KBS TGI 85, Tensei Red all in Regular flex.   However my last two fittings one with MIzuno Shaft Optimizer and one phone fitting with PXG resulted in steel shafts.   The Mizuno fitting camel up with Modus 105 (which I played before in Srixon 585) the PXG one recommended the Nippon NS 850.  
 Both said it was due to my very quick/aggressive transition from the top to my downswing.   I have a very short choppy swing (think Jon Rahm with not nesr as much speed) 

 

So my question or more like comment is, many of my regular or semi regular playing partners are shocked when they see so ordered steel shafts at my age and swing.  I told them all of the above info.   But they try to tell me the virtues of graphite.  Like I don’t know.  Which is funny as they always come to me for club advice knowing my experience on forums snd the many visits I have made to OEMs for meetings and fittings.  
 

i think it just shows that there is a natural assumption out there that aging golfers must always be in graphite.  And trust me it’s not an ego thing at all with me. I absolutely love KBs TGI shafts and Recoil.   But I felt the fitters and the technology must know something more than the stereotype.  

[hammergolf]

Just remember the Mizuno analyzer is only a “recommendation”. Ultimately it comes down to what your prefer the feel of and works best for you. The only way to really know for sure is to hit them side by side. I’ve said this many times, there are no bad shafts. Just those that work for someone and those that don’t.

[jeggolfer68]

Why are you considering taking out shafts you love and replacing with a recommendation from the optimizer? Your sense of feel for those shafts are a better measure then any tech. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by jeggolfer68
Changed word

[Stuart_G]

9 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

However my last two fittings one with MIzuno Shaft Optimizer and one phone fitting with PXG resulted in steel shafts.

 

Those weren't fittings.   The Mizuno optimizer can only be used to start the fitting process - it can't do an actual fitting by itself.  And nothing over the phone could ever be any kind of fitting.  A real fitting requires you to hit balls and see and compare the results between two possible options.  That's the only way to find what shaft is going to be the best fit.

 

 

9 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

The Mizuno fitting camel up with Modus 105 (which I played before in Srixon 585) the PXG one recommended the Nippon NS 850. 

 

Plus those two shafts are VERY different from each other.   ~15 gm difference in weight and different stiffness profiles.

 

 

Have you gotten any clubs with either of those shafts?

If so:

Which shaft?

What shaft were you playing before?

How did the ball flight results change or improve?

 

That's really what is important to report.

 

 

9 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

i think it just shows that there is a natural assumption out there that aging golfers must always be in graphite.  

 

No, what it really shows is that people have a lot of misconceptions about what it means to be a graphite shaft or a steel shaft.     How good a fit a shaft is really has nothing to do with the material.   It's about the weight and the stiffness profile and with modern shafts, both steel and graphite come in a very wide range of both weights and stiffness profiles.   It used to be (a long time ago) that "steel" meant heavy and stiff and "graphite" meant light and soft.   But that's no longer the case, not by a long shot.  Really hasn't been like that for 15 years yet people still hang onto the same misconceptions.

 

The main exception where the material is important is that people with particular medial issues, particularly with the hands and elbows - can get a lot of pain relief from graphite that they can't get from steel.

 

The second one is for those that fit into a shaft weight less then the 80-90 gm range.  There are few options in steel that go that low. 

 

Other than that, once one finds the best weight and stiffness, there are enough options out there that in many cases with am's it's very possible to find a good fit with both steel and graphite.

 

There are other misconceptions at play as well - specifically with respect to fitting for shaft weight.   e.g. shaft weight should be fit based on swing speed and slower swings should always play lighter shafts.   That's not the best way.  Shaft weight can effect club head speed but it is really more about rhythm and tempo and consistency of the results.    For those that know better, it's not surprising at all that you might fit into a slightly heavier shaft than others with the same swing speed because of an aggressive transition.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Stuart_G

[iGolf67]

It's all about what works best for you. Most of the guys I know who are in their 60s and 70s play steel shafts. I am 67 and switched to graphite a number of years ago. I was having tennis elbow problems and the switch to graphite cleared it right up. On a side note, I am partial to the Recoils. 

[aenemated]

Dang, so I gotta start playing steel again when I get to my 60s? 😞

[Billfitz]

I switched to graphite in 1990. I've never considered golf to be a sport that should only be played by Luddites. 🙄

[Carolina Golfer 2]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Those weren't fittings.   The Mizuno optimizer can only be used to start the fitting process - it can't do an actual fitting by itself.  And nothing over the phone could ever be any kind of fitting.  A real fitting requires you to hit balls and see and compare the results between two possible options.  That's the only way to find what shaft is going to be the best fit.

 

 

 

Plus those two shafts are VERY different from each other.   ~15 gm difference in weight and different stiffness profiles.

 

 

Have you gotten any clubs with either of those shafts?

If so:

Which shaft?

What shaft were you playing before?

How did the ball flight results change or improve?

 

That's really what is important to report.

 

 

No, what it really shows is that people have a lot of misconceptions about what it means to be a graphite shaft or a steel shaft.     How good a fit a shaft is really has nothing to do with the material.   It's about the weight and the stiffness profile and with modern shafts, both steel and graphite come in a very wide range of both weights and stiffness profiles.   It used to be (a long time ago) that "steel" meant heavy and stiff and "graphite" meant light and soft.   But that's no longer the case, not by a long shot.  Really hasn't been like that for 15 years yet people still hang onto the same misconceptions.

 

The main exception where the material is important is that people with particular medial issues, particularly with the hands and elbows - can get a lot of pain relief from graphite that they can't get from steel.

 

The second one is for those that fit into a shaft weight less then the 80-90 gm range.  There are few options in steel that go that low. 

 

Other than that, once one finds the best weight and stiffness, there are enough options out there that in many cases with am's it's very possible to find a good fit with both steel and graphite.

 

There are other misconceptions at play as well - specifically with respect to fitting for shaft weight.   e.g. shaft weight should be fit based on swing speed and slower swings should always play lighter shafts.   That's not the best way.  Shaft weight can effect club head speed but it is really more about rhythm and tempo and consistency of the results.    For those that know better, it's not surprising at all that you might fit into a slightly heavier shaft than others with the same swing speed because of an aggressive transition.

 

Stuart. I always enjoy your thoughts.  Thanks for the response.  
 

Two things.  You are correct those by no means fittings. I should have used the word recommendations.  And I agree 100% about the limitations of the phone.  I just used the conversation with the rep to gain some information added to my already pretty strong knowledge base of shafts and my swing characteristics.    And If couese one of the well known downsides of PXG is the limited selection of shafts.   I certainly am aware from the spec wise the difference of the 105 and 850.  Lately I have tried and demoed some heavier graphite options like Recoil 95 and steelfiber 85.  Would love to try Accra I80 but it’s impossible to find those at most places. Only place I ever tried tbem was with Ian at TXG about 4 years ago. 
 

Secondly the bolded part of your post above is exactly rhd point I wanted to make, when I’m answering those that ask why I went with steel at my swing speed.  But didn’t articulate it as well as you did.   
Thanks 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Carolina Golfer 2

[Carolina Golfer 2]

6 hours ago, jeggolfer68 said:

Why are you considering taking out shafts you love and replacing with a recommendation from the optimizer? Your sense of feel for those shafts are a better measure then any tech. 

Because I’m a WRX’er and that’s what we do isn’t it 😬

 

In all honestly I seem to have better feel with the heavier shafts as lightweight whether it’s steel or graphite I seem to lose a sense of where the clubhead is. 
 

So as mentioned above to Stuart. I have lately tried a few mid weight graphite (85-95) options snd those feel much better to me than 70G range. 
 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Stuart. I always enjoy your thoughts.  Thanks for the response. 

 

You're welcome.

 

1 hour ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Lately I have tried and demoed some heavier graphite options like Recoil 95 and steelfiber 85.  Would love to try Accra I80 but it’s impossible to find those at most places. Only place I ever tried tbem was with Ian at TXG about 4 years ago.

 

Yes, the availability of many of the graphite options (especially heavier weight) to properly demo and test is quite poor in a lot of places.  But it's actually better than it used to be.  FWIW, I had to buy several single shafts and build single clubs with them to do my own testing and fitting.   Not the best option but sometimes it's the only option.

[aenemated]

13 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

FWIW, I had to buy several single shafts and build single clubs with them to do my own testing and fitting.   Not the best option but sometimes it's the only option.

 

Yep. Same. 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

31 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

You're welcome.

 

 

Yes, the availability of many of the graphite options (especially heavier weight) to properly demo and test is quite poor in a lot of places.  But it's actually better than it used to be.  FWIW, I had to buy several single shafts and build single clubs with them to do my own testing and fitting.   Not the best option but sometimes it's the only option.

Yes. I have a friend who is very good builder (unfortunately in Ohio) who is a big Accra guy. I have thought of having him build me a single iron to try out.  Or send him a “backup set” to put them all in to have.   He is actually coming out here in August. I may send them back with him to do just that. 

[chisag]

16 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

i think it just shows that there is a natural assumption out there that aging golfers must always should probably be in graphite.

 

 

... To add to the excellent responses there are several other factors that can effect iron shaft choice for any golfer, but especially seniors. How much do you play/practice and where do you play? Many of the courses I played in the Chicago suburbs had soft fairways and divots peeled out easily with seemingly very little resistance. Contrast that with hard fairways in the Phoenix area that jar your wrists/elbows with evert shot. If I tried to play steel here in the desert elbow pain would soon prevent me from playing at all. Anyone that has suffered a bout of elbow tendonitis knows it can be pretty debilitating and several months of rest is the only cure. Those of us that grew up fighting through pain as an athlete and didn't stop at the first sign of tendonitis suffered the consequences. Lesson learned. 

... I also play at least 5 times a week and that kind of wear and tear on the body after say age 50 is just too great to play steel. Now a weekend golfer might be able to get away with steel on these hard fairways and I am sure many do, but you are tempting fate and as others have stated graphite iron shafts can match steel for weight and performance if you find the right fit. 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

9 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... To add to the excellent responses there are several other factors that can effect iron shaft choice for any golfer, but especially seniors. How much do you play/practice and where do you play? Many of the courses I played in the Chicago suburbs had soft fairways and divots peeled out easily with seemingly very little resistance. Contrast that with hard fairways in the Phoenix area that jar your wrists/elbows with evert shot. If I tried to play steel here in the desert elbow pain would soon prevent me from playing at all. Anyone that has suffered a bout of elbow tendonitis knows it can be pretty debilitating and several months of rest is the only cure. Those of us that grew up fighting through pain as an athlete and didn't stop at the first sign of tendonitis suffered the consequences. Lesson learned. 

... I also play at least 5 times a week and that kind of wear and tear on the body after say age 50 is just too great to play steel. Now a weekend golfer might be able to get away with steel on these hard fairways and I am sure many do, but you are tempting fate and as others have stated graphite iron shafts can match steel for weight and performance if you find the right fit. 

Great points Chisag. 
 

Fortunately most of my rounds are on softer mid-Atlantic courses.  And generally play 2 a week and sad to report no long practice sessions.  Although we do have a grass range which helps. 

[ChipNRun]

21 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

So my question or more like comment is, many of my regular or semi regular playing partners are shocked when they see so ordered steel shafts at my age and swing.

 

During the MAGA senior circuit season and year-end championship in 2020, I played steel KBS Tour 90 steel shafts (~98 grams) in my Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten irons. I had just turned 70 that spring. As I looked in the bags of the last four or five tourney groups I played in, I was the only one with steel shafts.

 

After the final round of the season-end championship, we were sitting around eating the buffet meal. The Super Senior

winner looked in my bag, pulled out the 5  iron and said, "John, you need to switch to graphite!"

 

21 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

I absolutely love KBs TGI shafts and Recoil.   But I felt the fitters and the technology must know something more than the stereotype. 

 

Sub-100 gram graphite and steel shafts will work it they fit for you. Graphite lessens vibrations, but Sensicore and similar inserts in steel shafts supposedly dampen vibration also.

 

A physical therapist who worked with me a couple of years back also was a golfer. He cautioned the over-60 crowd that had structural ailments about swinging steel shafts that were too heavy to handle. Too heavy shafts, he said, created cumulative trauma in the body from the strain of extra weight.

 

End note: Go with the shaft that gives you the most confidence when you stand over the ball.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

42 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

 

During the MAGA senior circuit season and year-end championship in 2020, I played steel KBS Tour 90 steel shafts (~98 grams) in my Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten irons. I had just turned 70 that spring. As I looked in the bags of the last four or five tourney groups I played in, I was the only one with steel shafts.

 

After the final round of the season-end championship, we were sitting around eating the buffet meal. The Super Senior

winner looked in my bag, pulled out the 5  iron and said, "John, you need to switch to graphite!"

 

 

Sub-100 gram graphite and steel shafts will work it they fit for you. Graphite lessens vibrations, but Sensicore and similar inserts in steel shafts supposedly dampen vibration also.

 

A physical therapist who worked with me a couple of years back also was a golfer. He cautioned the over-60 crowd that had structural ailments about swinging steel shafts that were too heavy to handle. Too heavy shafts, he said, created cumulative trauma in the body from the strain of extra weight.

 

End note: Go with the shaft that gives you the most confidence when you stand over the ball.

Thanks for the comments.  As Stuart mentioned.  It’s definitely the weight that is more important than the actual material.   
 

i tend to do well in the 95-105 g neighborhood.  Just seemed to be more steel options in that class than graphite although as I mentioned a couple of the graphite ones there are very good. 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, ChipNRun said:

Graphite lessens vibrations, but Sensicore and similar inserts in steel shafts supposedly dampen vibration also.

 

 

... Most find inserts basically useless if they experience any elbow tendonitis. While Sensicore dampens feel, the vibrations are still there and again one of the reasons DLIII switched from Sensicore to G Loomis heavy weight graphite shafts in his irons. I tried them all when I experienced my first bout of tendonitis from Sensicore to Pro Soft to some homemade inserts before finally switching to graphite. 

[sandpounder]

2 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Thanks for the comments.  As Stuart mentioned.  It’s definitely the weight that is more important than the actual material.   
 

i tend to do well in the 95-105 g neighborhood.  Just seemed to be more steel options in that class than graphite although as I mentioned a couple of the graphite ones there are very good. 

I agree.  I really like the lightweight steel.  Nippon is an expert at providing these shafts.  750GH Wraptech is a great choice.  The grip end is reinforced with graphite filaments to enhance feel & stability.  Also the new Zelos line 7 & 8 are good choices.  I have played both Nippon lightweight steel & Steelfiber.  There is no comparison on feel.  I actually play a mixed set for experimentation.  1/2 my irons are 750GH Nippon & the other 1/2 Steelfiber.  I just like the feel of steel.  With the light weight, I get no serious vibration and the feeling is solid, with a kick.  In contrast, the Steelfiber just give much less  feedback.  I know how I hit it with 750GH but have to look into the sky to see how I hit Steelfiber.  I am amazed that very few people talk about the lightweight steel.  

[ChipNRun]

14 hours ago, chisag said:

... Most find inserts basically useless if they experience any elbow tendonitis. While Sensicore dampens feel, the vibrations are still there and again one of the reasons DLIII switched from Sensicore to G Loomis heavy weight graphite shafts in his irons.

 

Good to know. My remarks on Sensicore, etc., in steel shafts came from one-sentence remarks in various general golf articles. I never  have seen any studies which compared steel + inserts with graphite on actual measured vibrations.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

14 hours ago, sandpounder said:

I agree.  I really like the lightweight steel.  Nippon is an expert at providing these shafts.  750GH Wraptech is a great choice.  The grip end is reinforced with graphite filaments to enhance feel & stability.  Also the new Zelos line 7 & 8 are good choices.  I have played both Nippon lightweight steel & Steelfiber.  There is no comparison on feel.  I actually play a mixed set for experimentation.  1/2 my irons are 750GH Nippon & the other 1/2 Steelfiber.  I just like the feel of steel.  With the light weight, I get no serious vibration and the feeling is solid, with a kick.  In contrast, the Steelfiber just give much less  feedback.  I know how I hit it with 750GH but have to look into the sky to see how I hit Steelfiber.  I am amazed that very few people talk about the lightweight steel.  

I have bend very curious about the Zelos line. Sounds like a shaft I would really like.  May need to order yet another set of irons judt to try them.  Ha