*Graphite Design Lovers Anonymous* Tour AD UB vs IZ vs XC and NOW vs TP! ...and HD....and VR

[Rambada]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:33 PM, Jabender said:

I’m experimenting with the 3 highest launching shafts they offer at the moment. TSR3 11 Head. All shafts 5 Stiff and playing at 44.5 inches. Swing speed around 95 and I just turned 60.  The AD-Di flights the lowest but feels heavy in the tip and has the least amount of kick. The AD-VR is the longest, a little more feel than the DI and actually feels the lightest, maybe it’s counter balanced? The AD-CQ has a nice feel. Soft tip that I can feel releasing into the ball. Most kick between the 3 And launches higher than the VR. I play the CQ in my TSR3 4 Wood also at 6S and it’s money! I spent a year alternating the 3 and can’t decide on 1. Should I? Or should I just keep alternating them for no apparent reason? Course plays soft and need more carry the CQ.  plays long and hard and can use more roll the VR. Windy day, the DI. Dumb huh??

Nothing wrong with playing mutiple shafts. I buy alot of driver shafts while traveling in Korea. Their used market is way better and cheaper so I bring it back home and test it out. I have played pretty much all GD shafts and all ventus velocore shafts and for me it's either DI in my woods and Ventus TR in my driver. I always tend to go back to the gamer shafts.

Once you tested the 3 different shafts I am sure you will settle on one that works the best for you. 

[third-times-a-charm]

More AD DI hybrid numbers from some testing this week. This time I grabbed a Ventus Blue 8 HB for half price during black friday to compare against the DI 85 hyb I have.

 

This is for the 4 iron spot in the bag. The DI 85 was going way too far for my needs here.

 

The Ventus blue HB is a good feeling shaft where you can feel the bend and is stable. Very prototypical blue. The DI hybrid feels smoother and has more tip feel. Also feels about 1/4 flex softer overall head to head.

 

The numbers are reading a bit short since it's a MEVO but compared within each other you can see the G430 hybrid turned up to 23 with the Ventus gives good numbers (closer to 204yds on the course with roll) but low peak height for me on a good day.

 

The DI hybrid in the G430 gives a much better peak height and spin with similar launch, but also gives me some sessions with crazy low spinners in the hybrid head. Session 1 (albeit not a good range day as I noted) had an average of 2400rpm spin lol and those are the ones that go way too far and arent stopping on any greens.

 

So enter another club I got on black friday - a Mizuno Fli Hi 4 iron head. Less loft @21.5 but also less ball speed than the hybrids and a better gap for me. Very easy to hit with the DI 85 hyb and also a good amount of spin even on a bad day (as noted below). Mapping out one of my tee shots and fairway shots today with the Fli hi and DI 85 netted some nicely flighted shots in the gap I'm looking for.

 

Edit to add: the numbers are carry, SS, BS, launch, spin, smash, height, time

 

G430 w/ Ventus Blue 8 Hyb (23*)

Session 1

Avg

-

193.5

87.2

126.4

16.4

3356

1.45

87.6

6.1

 

 

G430 w/ DI 85 (23*)

Session 2

Avg

-

186.8

86.5

125

17.8

4219

1.45

98.4

6.4

Session 1 (bad day)

Avg

-

193.5

87

124.9

16.2

2437

1.44

77.8

5.8

 

FLI HI w/ DI 85 (21.5*)

Session 2

Avg

-

189.6

86.5

123.4

18.2

3196

1.43

92.7

6.2

Session 1 (bad day)

Avg

-

182.5

87.1

122.3

20.5

4100

1.4

108.8

6.5

 

Next up in testing is an AD UB 8 in a 7 wood to see if it can unseat my new fav 5 wood I built last month.

Edited December 4, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[zap311]

I've come back to the GD expert well, seeking some hybrid shaft advice. I am planning to get a TSR2 4 hybrid after a fitter recommended it at the end of my iron fitting. I only hit about 5 shots with it, but the club was very forgiving and had the right gap from the 5 iron. I was fit into an x-stiff DI-85 hybrid shaft and I'm debating whether to stay with that or go with stiff flex. This was the only shaft I tried, but I hit it fairly well and the fitter seemed confident in it. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough time left in the fitting to try anything else. I currently have a Stealth 3 hybrid with DI 85S that I can hit well, but it's inconsistent. It may have more to do with the club head than the shaft though.

 

Can anyone advise me on whether it could make sense to go stiffer in the DI hybrid, even though my woods are all stiff flex, including my AD-IZ 5 wood? My swing does get steeper as the clubs get shorter and I currently play X100s in irons (just fit into Modus 105x iron shafts as well). For reference, my last launch monitor session showed these swing speeds on the border of S/X: Driver - 103, 3W - 97, 5W - 93, 3H - 92, 4i - 91. 

[HillbillyHoma]

5 hours ago, zap311 said:

I've come back to the GD expert well, seeking some hybrid shaft advice. I am planning to get a TSR2 4 hybrid after a fitter recommended it at the end of my iron fitting. I only hit about 5 shots with it, but the club was very forgiving and had the right gap from the 5 iron. I was fit into an x-stiff DI-85 hybrid shaft and I'm debating whether to stay with that or go with stiff flex. This was the only shaft I tried, but I hit it fairly well and the fitter seemed confident in it. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough time left in the fitting to try anything else. I currently have a Stealth 3 hybrid with DI 85S that I can hit well, but it's inconsistent. It may have more to do with the club head than the shaft though.

 

Can anyone advise me on whether it could make sense to go stiffer in the DI hybrid, even though my woods are all stiff flex, including my AD-IZ 5 wood? My swing does get steeper as the clubs get shorter and I currently play X100s in irons (just fit into Modus 105x iron shafts as well). For reference, my last launch monitor session showed these swing speeds on the border of S/X: Driver - 103, 3W - 97, 5W - 93, 3H - 92, 4i - 91. 

 

I also got a Tsr2 hybird with a DI 85 S shaft to replace my p770 4 iron. I would definitely not go with an X stiff. As others have said, the DI hybrid doesn't have the same feel as the wood shaft. Ian Fraser himself said he doesn't like the DI Hy in the X. 

[Kwheat]

So this is kinda digging into the weeds, maybe it's a super easy answer I'm missing so be gentle and throw me a bone if it is lol.  

 

I've been trying to wrap my head around the descriptions of GD shafts, EI profiles then wrx vetted charts.  Namely, these 5...

 

 

 

 

Can someone help me understand from a shaft engineering vs shaft feel vs marketing description perspective how this could be anymore confusing haha:

 

1. Ad TP has the stiffest handle/tip per EI profile yet either launches higher than the HD which has a softer tip per GD description/# or lower per WRX opinion 

2. AD XC has a 4/stiff tip and AD VR has a 3/firm tip while the TP has a 4/stiff tip and yet the EI profile shows only the TP as clearly separated from the group.  VR has a 3+ handle, TP 3 yet again, EI is opposite.

3. How any of these can be described as having anything but the same mid section lol?  Am I crazy for seeing these as overlapped all in the mid (18-32" or so) with only butt and tip differing, yet every descriptor is somehow different.  As far as I can see it, an XC is 2nd softest, VR 2nd stiffest handle, the rest looks pretty much the same unless the EI chart just isn't descriptive enough.

 

Is the best option just to look at the chart posted by @third-times-a-charm which shows from a good testing of WRX members the subjective feel, launch and spin and just stop trying to go down the rabbit hole?

 

Lastly, more for fun. What have you guys found to be the best combinations of shafts? Do you play the same in all three? Or is there some sort of trinity that you're finding best for a certain swing profile.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Kwheat

[Hoyoymac]

5 minutes ago, Kwheat said:

So this is kinda digging into the weeds, maybe it's a super easy answer I'm missing so be gentle and throw me a bone if it is lol.  

 

I've been trying to wrap my head around the descriptions of GD shafts, EI profiles then wrx vetted charts.  Namely, these 5...

 

 

 

 

Can someone help me understand from a shaft engineering vs shaft feel vs marketing description perspective how this could be anymore confusing haha:

 

1. Ad TP has the stiffest handle/tip per EI profile yet either launches higher than the HD which has a softer tip per GD description/# or lower per WRX opinion 

2. AD XC has a 4/stiff tip and AD VR has a 3/firm tip while the TP has a 4/stiff tip and yet the EI profile shows only the TP as clearly separated from the group

3. How any of these can be described as having anything but the same mid section lol?  Am I crazy for seeing these as overlapped all in the mid (18-32" or so) with only butt and tip differing, yet every descriptor is somehow different.  As far as I can see it, an XC is 2nd softest, VR 2nd stiffest handle, the rest looks pretty much the same unless the EI chart just isn't descriptive enough.

 

Is the best option just to look at the chart posted by @third-times-a-charm which shows from a good testing of WRX members the subjective feel, launch and spin and just stop trying to go down the rabbit hole?

 

Lastly, more for fun. What have you guys found to be the best combinations of shafts? Do you play the same in all three? Or is there some sort of trinity that you're finding best for a certain swing profile.  

In my testing, IZ, DI and MT flew the highest.  DI 6 S is very stiff tip and is fade biased in Driver but 7S is perfect for 4 wood for me.  Playing the VR 6S is Driver now and it is easier to turn over.  Used to play TP 8S in 7 wood but still too draw biased and I ended up selling it to a friend that struggled with a slice.

[Kwheat]

@Hoyoymac interesting that arguably the most linear, anti-left shaft (TP) would give you the exact opposite yet the DI which is way less stiff on paper (but likely feels tip stiff relatively speaking to its butt) is fade biased for you when a lot say it can become a hook machine esp when you go after it.   

 

I can totally see the VR being easy to draw given the profile.  That's probably the only one I completely understand haha 

[Hoyoymac]

I agree.  The 7 S DI is so good for me in my 4 wood,  but the DI 6S just didn’t work for me in driver.  The VR 6S has worked much better for me in Driver.  
 

Just received yesterday a BGT Brava X stiff to try in driver.
 

The TP 8S was just Meh in the 7 wood.  Was never able to get a DI in 8S.  I think that might be really good, but has been hard to find used.

Just recently got a Diamana Thump 85 S FWY to try in my 7 wood.  The 75 S Thump is great in a 13 degree 3 wood that I’m playing now.

 

 

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, Kwheat said:

@Hoyoymac interesting that arguably the most linear, anti-left shaft (TP) would give you the exact opposite yet the DI which is way less stiff on paper (but likely feels tip stiff relatively speaking to its butt) is fade biased for you when a lot say it can become a hook machine esp when you go after it.   

 

I can totally see the VR being easy to draw given the profile.  That's probably the only one I completely understand haha 

GD shafts are pretty much modified blue boards with a few being more white boardish like the XC and VF.  That's the best way I can describe it from all the testing I've done. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by phizzy30

[cw1209]

12 hours ago, Kwheat said:

So this is kinda digging into the weeds, maybe it's a super easy answer I'm missing so be gentle and throw me a bone if it is lol.  

 

I've been trying to wrap my head around the descriptions of GD shafts, EI profiles then wrx vetted charts.  Namely, these 5...

 

Can someone help me understand from a shaft engineering vs shaft feel vs marketing description perspective how this could be anymore confusing haha:

 

1. Ad TP has the stiffest handle/tip per EI profile yet either launches higher than the HD which has a softer tip per GD description/# or lower per WRX opinion 

2. AD XC has a 4/stiff tip and AD VR has a 3/firm tip while the TP has a 4/stiff tip and yet the EI profile shows only the TP as clearly separated from the group

3. How any of these can be described as having anything but the same mid section lol?  Am I crazy for seeing these as overlapped all in the mid (18-32" or so) with only butt and tip differing, yet every descriptor is somehow different.  As far as I can see it, an XC is 2nd softest, VR 2nd stiffest handle, the rest looks pretty much the same unless the EI chart just isn't descriptive enough.

 

Is the best option just to look at the chart posted by @third-times-a-charm which shows from a good testing of WRX members the subjective feel, launch and spin and just stop trying to go down the rabbit hole?

 

Lastly, more for fun. What have you guys found to be the best combinations of shafts? Do you play the same in all three? Or is there some sort of trinity that you're finding best for a certain swing profile.  

 

I had a subscription to S3 for a little while and had a chance to review those bend profiles in the first chart. Bend profiles (EI curves) are a great way to look at a shaft and compare it more objectively to another shaft. It highlights differences in shaft design. At the same time, bend profiles do not dictate feel. Graphite design is a great example of this. All the Tour AD shafts share a very similar bend profile, but they will feel different in your hands despite the small differences in the EI curve. Bend profiles are a great starting point. You will start to recognize the ones you gravitate towards and the ones you do not like.

 

Once you realize you actually have to buy and test each shaft to see how it works for you.....well then you have a great support group here to talk to.  The first step is admitting you have a problem to a bunch of enablers ...very knowledgeable people. Welcome.

Edited December 6, 2023 by cw1209

[Kwheat]

Well that last paragraph explains everything lol.  Duly noted

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, cw1209 said:

 

I had a subscription to S3 for a little while and had a chance to review those bend profiles in the first chart. Bend profiles (EI curves) are a great way to look at a shaft and compare it more objectively to another shaft. It highlights differences in shaft design. At the same time, bend profiles do not dictate feel. Graphite design is a great example of this. All the Tour AD shafts share a very similar bend profile, but they will feel different in your hands despite the small differences in the EI curve. Bend profiles are a great starting point. You will start to recognize the ones you gravitate towards and the ones you do not like.

 

Once you realize you actually have to buy and test each shaft to see how it works for you.....well then you have a great support group here to talk to.  The first step is admitting you have a problem to a bunch of enablers ...very knowledgeable people. Welcome.

Materials used will dictate feel.  Praise M40X and T1100. 

[third-times-a-charm]

15 hours ago, Hoyoymac said:

I agree.  The 7 S DI is so good for me in my 4 wood,  but the DI 6S just didn’t work for me in driver.  The VR 6S has worked much better for me in Driver.  
 

Just received yesterday a BGT Brava X stiff to try in driver.
 

The TP 8S was just Meh in the 7 wood.  Was never able to get a DI in 8S.  I think that might be really good, but has been hard to find used.

Just recently got a Diamana Thump 85 S FWY to try in my 7 wood.  The 75 S Thump is great in a 13 degree 3 wood that I’m playing now.

 

 

Another +1 for the DI 7 in fairway woods.

 

I also did not love the DI 6 in driver....but...I just had a stupid idea to try the DI 7 in driver.

 

Has anyone every gone 7-7-7 weights in all their woods? lol

 

Off to ebay we go

[Kwheat]

Lol never 777.  I've done 6, 6 plus a little lead tape, 7 so the gapping was probably only 5 or 6 grams instead of 10.  

 

3 wood was great at a little lighter weight, really helped to hit a push draw with some serious speed, couldn't cut the ball well at all though.  5 wood was kinda meh though in a ventus black 7.  Could've been the VB though, I'm not a fan of that feel or stiffness (Fan of a tipped Red though).... Hence me moving camps to the GD side of the river.

[Valtiel]

15 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Another +1 for the DI 7 in fairway woods.

 

I also did not love the DI 6 in driver....but...I just had a stupid idea to try the DI 7 in driver.

 

Has anyone every gone 7-7-7 weights in all their woods? lol

 

Off to ebay we go

I think Stenson had a setup like that for a while. 

[hagimihale]

22 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

I also did not love the DI 6 in driver....but...I just had a stupid idea to try the DI 7 in driver.

 

There is a correlation between stupid ideas and lighter wallets...

[third-times-a-charm]

6 minutes ago, hagimihale said:

 

There is a correlation between stupid ideas and lighter wallets...

Yes this is a topic I am an expert in thats why I have like 19 hobbies.

[dwboston]

20 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Yes this is a topic I am an expert in thats why I have like 19 hobbies.

 

I used DI 7 in driver for several years and really liked it.  The DI 6 and 7 play like different shafts - conventional wisdom here has always been that the 6 needs to be tipped a little bit more to play more like the 7.  I did that but still find the 6 to be more inconsistent with driver.  The 7 feels a little too heavy for me these days.  I really like the AD BB 6 in the driver.  Most folks here prefer the BB in fairway woods, but I like BB 6 much more than DI 6 in the driver - BB feels a little more stable but retains the great GD feel.   

Edited December 7, 2023 by dwboston

[third-times-a-charm]

Well I got more GD shafts inbound lol

 

I posted this in my CPO deals thread but in case some of you dont check that - CPO is having a pretty crazy sale on some Callaway-tipped GD shafts for like $130 shipped. HD, CQ, XC, DI, etc models.

 

I picked up an AD CQ 6 driver shaft for $135 and I'm going to tip it .75-1" to see how that does in driver against an untipped UB 6 and untipped DI 7.

 

Here's the driver shafts and you can see the Optifit 3 fairway shafts by going back a level: https://www.callawaygolfpreowned.com/more/more/shafts/optifit-2-shafts/?prefn1=a1683&prefv1=Graphite Design&prefn2=isClearance&prefv2=false&srule=price-low-to-hi&start=0&sz=36&cgid=results

Edited December 8, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[Kwheat]

Has anyone hit both an HD and XC TX or tipped X in a 3/4 wood?   

 

I've searched all over for an HD EI profile and can't find it, yes I know pony up for the shaftreview membership, but just looking for this one.  

 

Edit: found this EI chart. Probably the most up to date one I've seen so far

Edited December 9, 2023 by Kwheat

[phizzy30]

18 minutes ago, Kwheat said:

Has anyone hit both an HD and XC TX or tipped X in a 3/4 wood?   

 

I've searched all over for an HD EI profile and can't find it, yes I know pony up for the shaftreview membership, but just looking for this one.  

HD's EI profile is firm from tip to handle so it's very linear.  It's really good in fairway metals.  Mid/mid with a hint of kick to it. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by phizzy30

[Kwheat]

@phizzy30 so probably in-between TP and maybe VR.  Handle is about the same but between the 2 in tip stiffness?

[hitnfades]

Next adventures for me with all of the sales/deals going on.  After debating for months I ordered a Paradym 3HL with a Tour AD IZ 7. The price was right and I a really like my new Paradym driver that arrived last month. The IZ 6/7 has performed well for me in my past driver and OG Apex UW 17*.  So, this will be a solid pairing for me. My new XC 6 driver shaft in the Paradym driver is still the number 1 choice for me at this time. I had played the IZ 6 shaft in the driver for the last 2 years with great success. 

Then, I am swapping the UB 7 shaft out of Epic Speed 3w to the GD MAD 65g (non-pro version) shaft for a visitors bag. The UB 7 will go into my Apex UW 19* head. The DI 7 in the 19* has been great pair with this head, but it can go right at times if I am lazy. I have the UB 7 in my 21* and it pairs well since it’s a bit more linear to me. 
 

The MAD shaft is a very cheap experiment from a local retailer. I have paid more for a tank of gas than this shaft cost me. So, I went with the GD product instead of PX shaft that I had intended on buying. Not a lot of reviews and info out there.  I thought it would be an easy shaft to play for someone visiting based on specs and reviews out there. I will hit it once I get it back from the builder to see what I think. It looks nice overall, graphics are nice, but not as sharp as the Tour AD line for sure and stickers on the butt end our different. Here are a few pics.  
 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by hitnfades
Better pics

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, Kwheat said:

@phizzy30 so probably in-between TP and maybe VR.  Handle is about the same but between the 2 in tip stiffness?

Are we talking TP and VR or XC and HD? 

[Kwheat]

@phizzy30 HD vs XC initially, but you had said HD was linear, so I made the jump to say it was between maybe TP and VR as they all are described as stiff handle but increasing tip stiffness (VR<HD<TP).  

 

I assume XC is on the opposite spectrum compared to these 3 given the softer handle.  

[phizzy30]

7 minutes ago, Kwheat said:

@phizzy30 HD vs XC initially, but you had said HD was linear, so I made the jump to say it was between maybe TP and VR as they all are described as stiff handle but increasing tip stiffness (VR<HD<TP).  

 

I assume XC is on the opposite spectrum compared to these 3 given the softer handle.  

TP and XC have the stiffest tips.  HD and VR have softer tips.  I'd say that the TP and HD have firmer handles but I wouldn't call them stiff based upon real life testing. 

[hagimihale]

18 hours ago, hitnfades said:

The MAD shaft is a very cheap experiment from a local retailer. 

 

MAD is a real sleeper.  Graphite Design's attempt to replicate the EI profile of Aldila Tour Green.  I've been meaning to hit this shaft for a while.  Let us know how this experiment goes.

[third-times-a-charm]

So I have tested an AD CQ 7 and you can prob search this thread for my prev thoughts on it. It was tipped 1.5" in a 5 wood and I didnt love it. My swing has changed a bit since and I started lifting weights again - but the shaft is behaving completely different for me in driver. I got some mind blowing numbers for me personally today and probably my best driving session of the year so far with the not-so-great FS MEVO numbers.

 

I was going to tip the CQ an inch due to my last experience with it being so high spin and launch (in the 5w) - but at the last second after it showed up today I said why not test it untipped first and butt trimmed it down to 45.25" and put it in the bag untipped.

 

I have never gotten over 140 ball speed with any combo before and today and the shots were all over that and as high as 145.

 

Paradym (tour) 9+(9.8) w/ AD CQ 6 S (D/S)

 

Avg

-

230

99.9

142.7

16.3

2781

1.43

107.3

6.8

 

 

Last three sessions with the Paradym (tour) 9+(9.8) w/ AD UB 6 S (D/+1 and N/+1)

 

Avg

-

221.3

97.9

139.1

16.0

2970

1.42

101.7

6.6

 

Avg

-

220.1

94.9

138.6

16.5

3093

1.46

105.3

6.7

 

Avg

-

219.6

96.5

137.8

18.1

3044

1.43

114.4

6.9

 

My SS is way up and so is BS. Timing is better? Me doing back and bi's this week turned me into the hulk? Not sure but it's to the tune of 3mph in each with the CQ. Spin dropped but launch stayed relatively the same.

 

I'm pretty confused about the results but it seems the 'high launching' CQ shaft is giving me better results across the board.

 

Who would have thought. I guess I might not even do the AD DI 7 experiment next week if the CQ keeps performing this well hah.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[third-times-a-charm]

Does anyone have a UB in a fairway wood? Thoughts?

 

I have a UB 8 on the way for a 5/7 wood build and test but not sure what I want to do with it. I've put the TP 8 and HD 8 into play before and liked the HD 8 the best of those two.

 

My GP 7 is working so well in my 5w right now that I'm scared to disassemble it. Maybe wait for the new adjustable Paradym Smoke TD 7w next year? Or pop it into a Mavrik tour issue 7w head I have in the garage...

[bvanlieu]

Don't disassemble that GP you have really had a good time with it from all your reports. Its like my IZ 7 in Mav 5W I have, I won't pull that shaft out as the club just feels 'right'. 

 

Pop it in the 7W while you await the TD 7W that will find its way into your stable as you know it will 😄 

 

In other news, with the cold season in the NE here am my group still walking when its above 40F when we can, I popped the IZ 6S back into the driver as its cold and I am just swinging hard to stay warm but the SS is lower and it really does have a good feel to it. I still get it going more left then I like, and the TP 6X for me seems to really tighten dispersion. 

 

Will be doing multiple LM sessions this winter with a GC to look at the numbers closer. Don't know why I feel a bit more of the IZ over the TP (mid is only a smidge stiffer, tip/but EI is about the same between them), just what GD does with their shafts I suppose.