How early do you set your wrists?

[rbpwrx]

Interesting question.

For me, there's no choice, owing to a medical condition (fully ruptured supraspinatus in the right shoulder). (I was snowboard-racing with my son on a poorly-lit icy track at night and caught an edge. Full on car accident without the car. He had to drive us to a Boston hospital despite being underage and unlicensed - although an excellent and well-trained driver, then and now.)

 

Anyway, I have to pre-set the hinge in order to attach the right elbow to the ribs. Because there's literally no physical way for me to re-attach it on the way down. Missing that muscle. Works great left-handed, impossible right.

 

Point is, I have learned from personal experience that it's possible to make a decent swing (7i carry 180+, and often more or less in the direction of the flag) with a freakishly early set. (Although it's not really a 'wrist hinge.' For me, the feeling is 1/ pushing down and away with the lead arm WHILE 2/ pulling up and in with the trail. Kind of a DJ move, combined with a Duffner shaft pivot.)

 

From there, it's a simple turn back, and then either arm swing or body turn. Both work. Usually rotate for tee balls, and arms for approaches. I try to send the butt of the club to the pin.

 

But I agree with everyone above: there is no right way. If it works for your body, it works for your game. The pros prove this to us every weekend. Onward!

[KMeloney]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:02 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

Don't try to consciously set anything and I think you will find they will set just the right amount on their own.  

 

This definitely is NOT true for plenty of people. (Heck, it just might even be why the OP started a topic on it.)

 

If I'm not keenly aware, then my tendency is to not set my wrists enough/early enough in my swing because it ISN'T a natural thing for me to do. When you don't set your wrists enough, you almost have to float-load it -- and when you do that, you either need to really use a downward, late-hit "slap" on the ball, or else really turn hard, gather the float-load, and practice enough that the whole swing doesn't feel wild. Also when you don't set your wrists enough, it makes less-than-full shots feel really powerless and uncomfortable if you've previously relied on the club setting in transition at the top. When actively setting the wrists "early," it's easy to suck the club inside with a poor sense of how the wrist should set, or to release that set too early in the down swing, or to struggle with longer clubs (like people who do a lot of Faldo Drill work complain of), etc. 

 

Personally, I'm actively seeking to get more wrist hinge into my swing earlier. I also realize that that can't happen in a vacuum, and that I need to address other aspects of my swing in order to get where I want to go. 

[Righty to Lefty]

9 hours ago, KMeloney said:

 

This definitely is NOT true for plenty of people. (Heck, it just might even be why the OP started a topic on it.)

 

If I'm not keenly aware, then my tendency is to not set my wrists enough/early enough in my swing because it ISN'T a natural thing for me to do. When you don't set your wrists enough, you almost have to float-load it -- and when you do that, you either need to really use a downward, late-hit "slap" on the ball, or else really turn hard, gather the float-load, and practice enough that the whole swing doesn't feel wild. Also when you don't set your wrists enough, it makes less-than-full shots feel really powerless and uncomfortable if you've previously relied on the club setting in transition at the top. When actively setting the wrists "early," it's easy to suck the club inside with a poor sense of how the wrist should set, or to release that set too early in the down swing, or to struggle with longer clubs (like people who do a lot of Faldo Drill work complain of), etc. 

 

Personally, I'm actively seeking to get more wrist hinge into my swing earlier. I also realize that that can't happen in a vacuum, and that I need to address other aspects of my swing in order to get where I want to go. 

When you walk at what exact point during your stride do you flex your tibialis anterior muscle to flex the foot? At what exact point do you release it and can you reliably repeat it day in and day out?  Or do you just trust that your are instructing your body to walk, and since your body has walked before and is hopefully is not injured, it will handle this task for you and coordinate properly with the muscles needed to accomplish the task that it is familiar with because you have done it before?

 

If you are consciously thinking about any muscle group or body part setting, flexing, or firing etc. you are distracting your body from actually accomplishing the task at hand and this has been proven over and over again that using internal cues are the slowest way to improve. I assure that trying to "seek more wrist hinge" is not useful because the body will not use it until it is needed due to the body producing more force. While the club is in motion around you you should effectively be an outside observer for the most part and stay out of the way because the only time your input is needed is to set the club in motion in relation to your intensions, and to also assist the building momentum of the club at the proper time of the club's travel along the swing arc. Anything other than that is a distraction and will almost certainly do more harm than good. 

[rbpwrx]

9 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

When you walk at what exact point during your stride do you flex your tibialis anterior muscle to flex the foot? At what exact point do you release it and can you reliably repeat it day in and day out?  Or do you just trust that your are instructing your body to walk, and since your body has walked before and is hopefully is not injured, it will handle this task for you and coordinate properly with the muscles needed to accomplish the task that it is familiar with because you have done it before?

 

If you are consciously thinking about any muscle group or body part setting, flexing, or firing etc. you are distracting your body from actually accomplishing the task at hand and this has been proven over and over again that using internal cues are the slowest way to improve. I assure that trying to "seek more wrist hinge" is not useful because the body will not use it until it is needed due to the body producing more force. While the club is in motion around you you should effectively be an outside observer for the most part and stay out of the way because the only time your input is needed is to set the club in motion in relation to your intensions, and to also assist the building momentum of the club at the proper time of the club's travel along the swing arc. Anything other than that is a distraction and will almost certainly do more harm than good. 

while I agree with this in spirit, and generally it's the kind of cue that would work for me, that's NOT true for everybody.

 

This is very much a "right hemisphere" way of approaching a task. Holistic. The conscious focus is on the grand gesture or task. Perfectly correct for someone operating from the right side of the brain.

 

But someone operating from the left needs much more specific detailed cues. A right hemisphere cue will feel vague and meaningless.

 

Both right- and left-hemisphere dominant golfers have been successful. Bubba Watson, Freddie Couples, Phil Mickelson. Shot focused. Big picture. Right hemisphere. Tom Kite, Corey Pavin, Jordan Spieth. Clinical. Analytical. Body focused. Parts and pieces. Left hemisphere.

 

It's not one size fits all. You do you, and let them do them.

Edited July 22, 2022 by rbpwrx

[KMeloney]

12 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

When you walk at what exact point during your stride do you flex your tibialis anterior muscle to flex the foot? At what exact point do you release it and can you reliably repeat it day in and day out?  Or do you just trust that your are instructing your body to walk, and since your body has walked before and is hopefully is not injured, it will handle this task for you and coordinate properly with the muscles needed to accomplish the task that it is familiar with because you have done it before?

 

If you are consciously thinking about any muscle group or body part setting, flexing, or firing etc. you are distracting your body from actually accomplishing the task at hand and this has been proven over and over again that using internal cues are the slowest way to improve. I assure that trying to "seek more wrist hinge" is not useful because the body will not use it until it is needed due to the body producing more force. While the club is in motion around you you should effectively be an outside observer for the most part and stay out of the way because the only time your input is needed is to set the club in motion in relation to your intensions, and to also assist the building momentum of the club at the proper time of the club's travel along the swing arc. Anything other than that is a distraction and will almost certainly do more harm than good. 

You’re not suggesting that having a good golf swing should come as naturally as walking, are you? Personally, I didn’t start swinging a club at age 2.

 

When I mentioned being “keenly aware” of my [lack of] wrist hinge, I wasn’t suggesting it’s something I’m thinking about during my swing during a round of golf. It’s simply something that I know has been lacking from my swing, or has felt wrong and unnatural trying to incorporate it into my swing. 

 

I remember asking one of my plus-index buddies the extent to which he rolls his forearms in the backswing, since I was hooking my irons at the time, and wondered if maybe I was missing forearm roll in my swing, leading to the hooks. His reply was, “I don’t think about rolling my forearms in my backswing.” Of course that WASN’T my question — and the fact that he doesn’t think about it during his swing doesn’t mean that he doesn’t (or does) incorporate roll in his swing. Maybe one reason he’s such a good player is because so much of the golf swing comes naturally to him — but I assure you he still seeks out instructors to diagnose problems that have crept into his swing when he’s not hitting it well. 
 

I’m not satisfied with the lack of wrist hinge in my swing, and so I’m addressing it with the hopes that it all eventually becomes second nature. 

 

[Krt22]

I starting hinging straight up at P2. Unknowingly started to float load a bit, so it's a conscious effort to get it going earlier

[Valtiel]

8 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

while I agree with this in spirit, and generally it's the kind of cue that would work for me, that's NOT true for everybody.

 

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

You’re not suggesting that having a good golf swing should come as naturally as walking, are you? Personally, I didn’t start swinging a club at age 2.

 

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

I starting hinging straight up at P2. Unknowingly started to float load a bit, so it's a conscious effort to get it going earlier

Agreed with all these. The problem with comparing anything golf swing related to walking is that walking is something that gets ingrained from a very early age, it's fairly intuitive, and has pretty immediate and often painful feedback should you do something wrong. You can swing a golf club "wrong" your entire life and still play and enjoy the game. You can only walk "wrong" until you twist an ankle or fall over. VERY few things in the golf swing are intuitive, so trying to skip directly to unconscious competence just isn't possible for a vast majority of golfers. You have to grind it out in conscious incompetence while being aware of what and how you're moving.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by Valtiel

[Righty to Lefty]

On 7/23/2022 at 12:51 AM, KMeloney said:

You’re not suggesting that having a good golf swing should come as naturally as walking, are you? Personally, I didn’t start swinging a club at age 2.

 

When I mentioned being “keenly aware” of my [lack of] wrist hinge, I wasn’t suggesting it’s something I’m thinking about during my swing during a round of golf. It’s simply something that I know has been lacking from my swing, or has felt wrong and unnatural trying to incorporate it into my swing. 

 

I remember asking one of my plus-index buddies the extent to which he rolls his forearms in the backswing, since I was hooking my irons at the time, and wondered if maybe I was missing forearm roll in my swing, leading to the hooks. His reply was, “I don’t think about rolling my forearms in my backswing.” Of course that WASN’T my question — and the fact that he doesn’t think about it during his swing doesn’t mean that he doesn’t (or does) incorporate roll in his swing. Maybe one reason he’s such a good player is because so much of the golf swing comes naturally to him — but I assure you he still seeks out instructors to diagnose problems that have crept into his swing when he’s not hitting it well. 
 

I’m not satisfied with the lack of wrist hinge in my swing, and so I’m addressing it with the hopes that it all eventually becomes second nature. 

 

Yes I absolutely am suggesting that a golf swing is as easy as walking.  You weren't even capable of walking at first right?  And when you first begin to walk, I assure you that you were very clumsy and often fell until you could get it right. Then over time with repetition you became a natural at it and don't even think about it unless you are injured. A golf swing is absolutely no different.  At first you are not coordinated and have no clue what you are doing but over time your body becomes more and more coordinated at performing the task.  Your swing is actually not even as important as you better understanding where you are in relation to the ball is. Everyone has a pretty golf swing when there is no ball present. Introduce the golf ball to the equation and it ruins even the best of intentions! You've never heard anyone say "I could tell by his/her practice swing that he was a good / bad golfer."  Do you really believe that lack of wrist hinge is holding you back from realizing your potential in golf?  I assure that you have plenty enough wrist hinge to play great golf, but you don't have enough awareness of where you are in space in relation to the ball to repeat relentlessly which is the true measure that we all should be striving for.  There is only ONE point along your swing arc that matches your exact intentions, the ball is simply not present at that location yet you believe it to be your wrist hinge.  You were hooking your irons because you were out of position to the golf ball and didn't notice it and the only solution that you could think of to remedy it was your forearms rolling.  Once again you have given two scenarios of internal cues and internal cues have been scientifically proven to be the slowest way to improve because the body is constantly changing from day to day. Impact is boss and if you truly understand impact and are paying close attention to each and every golf shot that you hit impact will teach you valuable lessons. How well do you understand your ball flight laws and d plane principles?  Those two factors alone govern every golf shot that you ever hit, but how well do you know them?  

 

On 7/23/2022 at 2:33 AM, Valtiel said:

 

 

Agreed with all these. The problem with comparing anything golf swing related to walking is that walking is something that gets ingrained from a very early age, it's fairly intuitive, and has pretty immediate and often painful feedback should you do something wrong. You can swing a golf club "wrong" your entire life and still play and enjoy the game. You can only walk "wrong" until you twist an ankle or fall over. VERY few things in the golf swing are intuitive, so trying to skip directly to unconscious competence just isn't possible for a vast majority of golfers. You have to grind it out in conscious incompetence while being aware of what and how you're moving.  

Everyone has a natural walk and swing and none of them are viewed as "wrong" until the golf ball is introduced and the person's awareness of where they are in relation to the ball is exposed.  No one messes with Jim Furyk's swing even though it is "wrong," why, because once a golf ball was introduced into the equation he proved that he could reliably repeat his swing motion in relation to his intentions and hit good golf shots so after that no one messes with him trying to "fix" his swing motion. I completely agree that the golf swing may not be intuitive while the ball is present, but it is pretty instinctive though just like throwing, jumping, and other acts that we all do throughout or lives.  Refinement of the swing motion isn't even truly possible until you have true comprehension of what you are trying to accomplish.  The ball flight laws and d plane should be day one learning in golf but they are never mentioned.  Grip, stance, and posture are not fundamental to golf as there are many ways to do all of them that can play good golf, but we are all subject to the same rules at impact. 

 

On 7/22/2022 at 5:40 PM, rbpwrx said:

while I agree with this in spirit, and generally it's the kind of cue that would work for me, that's NOT true for everybody.

 

This is very much a "right hemisphere" way of approaching a task. Holistic. The conscious focus is on the grand gesture or task. Perfectly correct for someone operating from the right side of the brain.

 

But someone operating from the left needs much more specific detailed cues. A right hemisphere cue will feel vague and meaningless.

 

Both right- and left-hemisphere dominant golfers have been successful. Bubba Watson, Freddie Couples, Phil Mickelson. Shot focused. Big picture. Right hemisphere. Tom Kite, Corey Pavin, Jordan Spieth. Clinical. Analytical. Body focused. Parts and pieces. Left hemisphere.

 

It's not one size fits all. You do you, and let them do them.

I get what you are saying but it is proven that internal cues slow progression towards mastering a given task.  A better method of approach would be for instance to monitor when along the swing arc the athlete begins to assist the momentum of the club in order to find the point at which the most leverage is created and note how it changes as the golfer fatigues, or becomes nervous, etc.  That immediately moves the focus external to monitoring something that its properties don't change from day to day and will be much more reliable. The golf club must be in a certain location to hit a given shot and it isn't up for debate so if the focus is on understanding this dynamic and working back from there don't you think that the body will adapt evolve to produce the desired result as quickly as possible? Sure you can have cues that you are aware of that stick out to you personally during your swing motion but believing that a certain amount of wrist hinge, or hip fire, etc. is going to lead to lasting improvement is going to be a frustrating endeavor I assure you. 

 

My handle is Righty to Lefty for a reason....I used to play right handed to a 5.2 index and I was very much in the wrist hinge this or fire the hip mode of thinking. It took me six years to break 90.  Determined to not make it take that long when I switched over to lefty I learned impact and kept my focus on understanding why the ball does with it does and how impact affected it.  It took me 6 months to break 90 left handed from scratch and I have never had a golf lesson in my life.  I played to a 5.2 index left handed 2.5 years after switching to lefty.  I give myself plenty of detail on any given shot prior to the shot, but once I have made those calculations, the athlete must take over because a golf swing simply happens too fast for you to interject.  I have played the game from both right and left hemisphere as you mentioned and will attest that if you haven't played the game from a very early age you better have a mix of both or you will not reach your potential. That is because a right hemisphere golfer will not have enough time to do enough reps and a left hemisphere golfer will never have enough consistency physically for a given cue to be fully and wholeheartedly trusted and they will constantly be in a "I got it...no I don't" mode.  Am I making sense?  

 

My Left Hemisphere side that learned impact even in a physics class:

 

 

My right hemisphere side that learned that for how I'm built and my clubs dynamics that I must hover the club some six inches above the ball in order to strike it properly and athletically and that I have to accept that regardless of what other think is "right":

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[vman]

Like throwing a ball, I've never thought about setting my wrists...but I do keep 'em oily.

[rbpwrx]

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yes I absolutely am suggesting that a golf swing is as easy as walking.  You weren't even capable of walking at first right?  And when you first begin to walk, I assure you that you were very clumsy and often fell until you could get it right. Then over time with repetition you became a natural at it and don't even think about it unless you are injured. A golf swing is absolutely no different.  At first you are not coordinated and have no clue what you are doing but over time your body becomes more and more coordinated at performing the task.  Your swing is actually not even as important as you better understanding where you are in relation to the ball is. Everyone has a pretty golf swing when there is no ball present. Introduce the golf ball to the equation and it ruins even the best of intentions! You've never heard anyone say "I could tell by his/her practice swing that he was a good / bad golfer."  Do you really believe that lack of wrist hinge is holding you back from realizing your potential in golf?  I assure that you have plenty enough wrist hinge to play great golf, but you don't have enough awareness of where you are in space in relation to the ball to repeat relentlessly which is the true measure that we all should be striving for.  There is only ONE point along your swing arc that matches your exact intentions, the ball is simply not present at that location yet you believe it to be your wrist hinge.  You were hooking your irons because you were out of position to the golf ball and didn't notice it and the only solution that you could think of to remedy it was your forearms rolling.  Once again you have given two scenarios of internal cues and internal cues have been scientifically proven to be the slowest way to improve because the body is constantly changing from day to day. Impact is boss and if you truly understand impact and are paying close attention to each and every golf shot that you hit impact will teach you valuable lessons. How well do you understand your ball flight laws and d plane principles?  Those to factors alone govern every golf shot that you ever hit, but how well do you know them?  

 

Everyone has a natural walk and swing and none of them are viewed as "wrong" until the golf ball is introduced and the person's awareness of where they are in relation to the ball is exposed.  No one messes with Jim Furyk's swing even though it is "wrong," why, because once a golf ball was introduced into the equation he proved that he could reliably repeat his swing motion in relation to his intentions and hit good golf shots so after that no one messes with him trying to "fix" his swing motion. I completely agree that the golf swing may not be intuitive while the ball is present, but it is pretty instinctive though just like throwing, jumping, and other acts that we all do throughout or lives.  Refinement of the swing motion isn't even truly possible until you have true comprehension of what you are trying to accomplish.  The ball flight laws and d plane should be day one learning in golf but they are never mentioned.  Grip, stance, and posture are not fundamental to golf as there are many ways to do all of them that can play good golf, but we are all subject to the same rules at impact. 

 

I get what you are saying but it is proven that internal cues slow progression towards mastering a given task.  A better method of approach would be for instance to monitor when along the swing arc the athlete begins to assist the momentum of the club in order to find the point at which the most leverage is created and note how it changes as the golfer fatigues, or becomes nervous, etc.  That immediately moves the focus external to monitoring something that its properties don't change from day to day and will be much more reliable. The golf club must be in a certain location to hit a given shot and it isn't up for debate so if the focus is on understanding this dynamic and working back from there don't you think that the body will adapt evolve to produce the desired result as quickly as possible? Sure you can have cues that you are aware of that stick out to you personally during your swing motion but believing that a certain amount of wrist hinge, or hip fire, etc. is going to lead to lasting improvement is going to be a frustrating endeavor I assure you. 

 

My handle is Righty to Lefty for a reason....I used to play right handed to a 5.2 index and I was very much in the wrist hinge this or fire the hip mode of thinking. It took me six years to break 90.  Determined to not make it take that long when I switched over to lefty I learned impact and kept my focus on understanding why the ball does with it does and how impact affected it.  It took me 6 months to break 90 left handed from scratch and I have never had a golf lesson in my life.  I played to a 5.2 index left handed 2.5 years after switching to lefty.  I give myself plenty of detail on any given shot prior to the shot, but once I have made those calculations, the athlete must take over because a golf swing simply happens too fast for you to interject.  I have played the game from both right and left hemisphere as you mentioned and will attest that if you haven't played the game from a very early age you better have a mix of both or you will not reach your potential. That is because a right hemisphere golfer will not have enough time to do enough reps and a left hemisphere golfer will never have enough consistency physically for a given cue to be fully and wholeheartedly trusted and they will constantly be in a "I got it...no I don't" mode.  Am I making sense?  

 

My Left Hemisphere side that learned impact even in a physics class:

 

 

My right hemisphere side that learned that for how I'm built and my clubs dynamics that I must hover the club some six inches above the ball in order to strike it properly and athletically and that I have to accept that regardless of what other think is "right":

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yes I absolutely am suggesting that a golf swing is as easy as walking.  You weren't even capable of walking at first right?  And when you first begin to walk, I assure you that you were very clumsy and often fell until you could get it right. Then over time with repetition you became a natural at it and don't even think about it unless you are injured. A golf swing is absolutely no different.  At first you are not coordinated and have no clue what you are doing but over time your body becomes more and more coordinated at performing the task.  Your swing is actually not even as important as you better understanding where you are in relation to the ball is. Everyone has a pretty golf swing when there is no ball present. Introduce the golf ball to the equation and it ruins even the best of intentions! You've never heard anyone say "I could tell by his/her practice swing that he was a good / bad golfer."  Do you really believe that lack of wrist hinge is holding you back from realizing your potential in golf?  I assure that you have plenty enough wrist hinge to play great golf, but you don't have enough awareness of where you are in space in relation to the ball to repeat relentlessly which is the true measure that we all should be striving for.  There is only ONE point along your swing arc that matches your exact intentions, the ball is simply not present at that location yet you believe it to be your wrist hinge.  You were hooking your irons because you were out of position to the golf ball and didn't notice it and the only solution that you could think of to remedy it was your forearms rolling.  Once again you have given two scenarios of internal cues and internal cues have been scientifically proven to be the slowest way to improve because the body is constantly changing from day to day. Impact is boss and if you truly understand impact and are paying close attention to each and every golf shot that you hit impact will teach you valuable lessons. How well do you understand your ball flight laws and d plane principles?  Those to factors alone govern every golf shot that you ever hit, but how well do you know them?  

 

Everyone has a natural walk and swing and none of them are viewed as "wrong" until the golf ball is introduced and the person's awareness of where they are in relation to the ball is exposed.  No one messes with Jim Furyk's swing even though it is "wrong," why, because once a golf ball was introduced into the equation he proved that he could reliably repeat his swing motion in relation to his intentions and hit good golf shots so after that no one messes with him trying to "fix" his swing motion. I completely agree that the golf swing may not be intuitive while the ball is present, but it is pretty instinctive though just like throwing, jumping, and other acts that we all do throughout or lives.  Refinement of the swing motion isn't even truly possible until you have true comprehension of what you are trying to accomplish.  The ball flight laws and d plane should be day one learning in golf but they are never mentioned.  Grip, stance, and posture are not fundamental to golf as there are many ways to do all of them that can play good golf, but we are all subject to the same rules at impact. 

 

I get what you are saying but it is proven that internal cues slow progression towards mastering a given task.  A better method of approach would be for instance to monitor when along the swing arc the athlete begins to assist the momentum of the club in order to find the point at which the most leverage is created and note how it changes as the golfer fatigues, or becomes nervous, etc.  That immediately moves the focus external to monitoring something that its properties don't change from day to day and will be much more reliable. The golf club must be in a certain location to hit a given shot and it isn't up for debate so if the focus is on understanding this dynamic and working back from there don't you think that the body will adapt evolve to produce the desired result as quickly as possible? Sure you can have cues that you are aware of that stick out to you personally during your swing motion but believing that a certain amount of wrist hinge, or hip fire, etc. is going to lead to lasting improvement is going to be a frustrating endeavor I assure you. 

 

My handle is Righty to Lefty for a reason....I used to play right handed to a 5.2 index and I was very much in the wrist hinge this or fire the hip mode of thinking. It took me six years to break 90.  Determined to not make it take that long when I switched over to lefty I learned impact and kept my focus on understanding why the ball does with it does and how impact affected it.  It took me 6 months to break 90 left handed from scratch and I have never had a golf lesson in my life.  I played to a 5.2 index left handed 2.5 years after switching to lefty.  I give myself plenty of detail on any given shot prior to the shot, but once I have made those calculations, the athlete must take over because a golf swing simply happens too fast for you to interject.  I have played the game from both right and left hemisphere as you mentioned and will attest that if you haven't played the game from a very early age you better have a mix of both or you will not reach your potential. That is because a right hemisphere golfer will not have enough time to do enough reps and a left hemisphere golfer will never have enough consistency physically for a given cue to be fully and wholeheartedly trusted and they will constantly be in a "I got it...no I don't" mode.  Am I making sense?  

 

My Left Hemisphere side that learned impact even in a physics class:

 

 

My right hemisphere side that learned that for how I'm built and my clubs dynamics that I must hover the club some six inches above the ball in order to strike it properly and athletically and that I have to accept that regardless of what other think is "right":

 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree with all of this more. For YOU. (And it's a beautiful journey, and a powerful motion. Thanks for sharing. Seriously.)

 

But try teaching this to an 80yo grandmother. (Actually, scratch that, I know an 80yo grandmother this would be PERFECT instruction for. But there will be some people who will stare at you like you're speaking Greek.)

I've been a yoga teacher for 25 years, and one thing I've learned is: what works for me does NOT work for everyone. I have shared cues that took me decades to refine, that for me are brilliant and concise and the stars aligning in the universe etc, and some students look at me like I just took a dump on my mat.

My son's difficulties in school taught me that different brains learn differently. And even though you may be EXACTLY right about how the body works, and assisting the momentum of the club, etc, how that TRANSLATES into tips and cues for different brains will be different.

Keep up the great work. (I putt and practice-swing lefty. Big believer in the benefits of working from 'both sides.')

[Soloman1]

Remember the old days when an instructor would make a video saying, “You don’t want to hinge too early or too late. You want to hinge at juuuuuust the right time.”

 

And leave it at that as if it were words of wisdom. 😉

[rd1959]

On 7/21/2022 at 11:20 AM, rbpwrx said:

Interesting question.

For me, there's no choice, owing to a medical condition (fully ruptured supraspinatus in the right shoulder). (I was snowboard-racing with my son on a poorly-lit icy track at night and caught an edge. Full on car accident without the car. He had to drive us to a Boston hospital despite being underage and unlicensed - although an excellent and well-trained driver, then and now.)

 

Anyway, I have to pre-set the hinge in order to attach the right elbow to the ribs. Because there's literally no physical way for me to re-attach it on the way down. Missing that muscle. Works great left-handed, impossible right.

 

Point is, I have learned from personal experience that it's possible to make a decent swing (7i carry 180+, and often more or less in the direction of the flag) with a freakishly early set. (Although it's not really a 'wrist hinge.' For me, the feeling is 1/ pushing down and away with the lead arm WHILE 2/ pulling up and in with the trail. Kind of a DJ move, combined with a Duffner shaft pivot.)

 

From there, it's a simple turn back, and then either arm swing or body turn. Both work. Usually rotate for tee balls, and arms for approaches. I try to send the butt of the club to the pin.

 

But I agree with everyone above: there is no right way. If it works for your body, it works for your game. The pros prove this to us every weekend. Onward!

Calvin Peete did alright with a modified swing.

[Buzzkill]

From the get go!

Edited July 23, 2022 by Buzzkill

[rd1959]

1 minute ago, Buzzkill said:

From the get go!

Mine are set by time I get to the 9 o'clock position. 

[Krt22]

47 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Remember the old days when an instructor would make a video saying, “You don’t want to hinge too early or too late. You want to hinge at juuuuuust the right time.”

 

And leave it at that as if it were words of wisdom. 😉

They call that the honey hole 

[rd1959]

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yes I absolutely am suggesting that a golf swing is as easy as walking.  You weren't even capable of walking at first right?  And when you first begin to walk, I assure you that you were very clumsy and often fell until you could get it right. Then over time with repetition you became a natural at it and don't even think about it unless you are injured. A golf swing is absolutely no different.  At first you are not coordinated and have no clue what you are doing but over time your body becomes more and more coordinated at performing the task.  Your swing is actually not even as important as you better understanding where you are in relation to the ball is. Everyone has a pretty golf swing when there is no ball present. Introduce the golf ball to the equation and it ruins even the best of intentions! You've never heard anyone say "I could tell by his/her practice swing that he was a good / bad golfer."  Do you really believe that lack of wrist hinge is holding you back from realizing your potential in golf?  I assure that you have plenty enough wrist hinge to play great golf, but you don't have enough awareness of where you are in space in relation to the ball to repeat relentlessly which is the true measure that we all should be striving for.  There is only ONE point along your swing arc that matches your exact intentions, the ball is simply not present at that location yet you believe it to be your wrist hinge.  You were hooking your irons because you were out of position to the golf ball and didn't notice it and the only solution that you could think of to remedy it was your forearms rolling.  Once again you have given two scenarios of internal cues and internal cues have been scientifically proven to be the slowest way to improve because the body is constantly changing from day to day. Impact is boss and if you truly understand impact and are paying close attention to each and every golf shot that you hit impact will teach you valuable lessons. How well do you understand your ball flight laws and d plane principles?  Those to factors alone govern every golf shot that you ever hit, but how well do you know them?  

 

Everyone has a natural walk and swing and none of them are viewed as "wrong" until the golf ball is introduced and the person's awareness of where they are in relation to the ball is exposed.  No one messes with Jim Furyk's swing even though it is "wrong," why, because once a golf ball was introduced into the equation he proved that he could reliably repeat his swing motion in relation to his intentions and hit good golf shots so after that no one messes with him trying to "fix" his swing motion. I completely agree that the golf swing may not be intuitive while the ball is present, but it is pretty instinctive though just like throwing, jumping, and other acts that we all do throughout or lives.  Refinement of the swing motion isn't even truly possible until you have true comprehension of what you are trying to accomplish.  The ball flight laws and d plane should be day one learning in golf but they are never mentioned.  Grip, stance, and posture are not fundamental to golf as there are many ways to do all of them that can play good golf, but we are all subject to the same rules at impact. 

 

I get what you are saying but it is proven that internal cues slow progression towards mastering a given task.  A better method of approach would be for instance to monitor when along the swing arc the athlete begins to assist the momentum of the club in order to find the point at which the most leverage is created and note how it changes as the golfer fatigues, or becomes nervous, etc.  That immediately moves the focus external to monitoring something that its properties don't change from day to day and will be much more reliable. The golf club must be in a certain location to hit a given shot and it isn't up for debate so if the focus is on understanding this dynamic and working back from there don't you think that the body will adapt evolve to produce the desired result as quickly as possible? Sure you can have cues that you are aware of that stick out to you personally during your swing motion but believing that a certain amount of wrist hinge, or hip fire, etc. is going to lead to lasting improvement is going to be a frustrating endeavor I assure you. 

 

My handle is Righty to Lefty for a reason....I used to play right handed to a 5.2 index and I was very much in the wrist hinge this or fire the hip mode of thinking. It took me six years to break 90.  Determined to not make it take that long when I switched over to lefty I learned impact and kept my focus on understanding why the ball does with it does and how impact affected it.  It took me 6 months to break 90 left handed from scratch and I have never had a golf lesson in my life.  I played to a 5.2 index left handed 2.5 years after switching to lefty.  I give myself plenty of detail on any given shot prior to the shot, but once I have made those calculations, the athlete must take over because a golf swing simply happens too fast for you to interject.  I have played the game from both right and left hemisphere as you mentioned and will attest that if you haven't played the game from a very early age you better have a mix of both or you will not reach your potential. That is because a right hemisphere golfer will not have enough time to do enough reps and a left hemisphere golfer will never have enough consistency physically for a given cue to be fully and wholeheartedly trusted and they will constantly be in a "I got it...no I don't" mode.  Am I making sense?  

 

My Left Hemisphere side that learned impact even in a physics class:

 

 

My right hemisphere side that learned that for how I'm built and my clubs dynamics that I must hover the club some six inches above the ball in order to strike it properly and athletically and that I have to accept that regardless of what other think is "right":

 

 

 

You can watch all the swing videos you want but, in the end it comes down to what works for you.

[Righty to Lefty]

9 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

 

 

I couldn't agree with all of this more. For YOU. (And it's a beautiful journey, and a powerful motion. Thanks for sharing. Seriously.)

 

But try teaching this to an 80yo grandmother. (Actually, scratch that, I know an 80yo grandmother this would be PERFECT instruction for. But there will be some people who will stare at you like you're speaking Greek.)

I've been a yoga teacher for 25 years, and one thing I've learned is: what works for me does NOT work for everyone. I have shared cues that took me decades to refine, that for me are brilliant and concise and the stars aligning in the universe etc, and some students look at me like I just took a dump on my mat.

My son's difficulties in school taught me that different brains learn differently. And even though you may be EXACTLY right about how the body works, and assisting the momentum of the club, etc, how that TRANSLATES into tips and cues for different brains will be different.

Keep up the great work. (I putt and practice-swing lefty. Big believer in the benefits of working from 'both sides.')

It is a process and I assure you that I would find the way that it "clicks" with any golfer because I do it all the time when I get approached on the range regardless of the age or current skill level of the athlete.   Everyone is good at something and that can be related to golf I assure you because I find so many parallels in other sports or aspects of life that directly apply to golf. Yes it takes longer with those that haven't played any other sports but there is still always a way to tap in and get the "I never thought of it that way" response.  I was approached by a guy at the range a few weeks ago and he was mentioning what he was being taught in his lessons and so I told him that I would be here tomorrow at around the same time the next day just to see if he would show to see how badly he wanted the information.

 

He showed up the next day and so I knew that I would point him in the right direction. It took 10 swings to show him his error and 6 of them where me simply observing him to see if he would make the proper adjustment to what his ball flight was already telling him.  He was hitting a 7 iron but I told him to grab a club that he thought was "hard" to hit for him and so he grabbed a 3 hybrid that he said that he couldn't hit high enough.  He was a classic case of someone who did not understand impact and didn't know where he was supposed to be hitting a given shot.  This is what plagues 99.9% of golfers. They don't understand impact and they are out of position to the ball and don't know where they should be hitting a given shot.  Since the laws of impact are fixed I can look at someone's setup and point out exactly where they should be hitting a levered golf shot.  He was missing that target by some 20 yards to the left and it would be plainly obvious to anyone that is aware of impact.  After he hit a low line drive with his 3 hybrid on the next shot at the very moment that I saw him look out to where he thought his target should be I told him where the golf shot should actually flying to but I told him to just let his swing motion happen while keeping that target in his mind's eye.  Boom...levered high flying golf shot exactly where I stated it should go. He then looked at me perplexed and I told him that there was nothing wrong with this swing motion...his understanding of impact was the flaw and that he didn't know where he was supposed to hit a given golf shot.  

 

Mathematically he was striking the ball at the wrong point along his swing arc, while athletically he was hitting the ball after his trail arm had fully extended thus he lost control of the club face due to loss of lag tension and this is a deal breaker because the trail arm must not fully extend until post impact but it is important to know that you don't hold this angle, you orient your body in relation to the ball that it happens to still be bent, and that is a very important distinction to understand.  See how the issue can be attacked from either hemisphere of the brain that the athlete bests grasps whether it is an 80 year old grandmother or a 5 year old child impact didn't change so sure the message can be catered to the individual but the laws that govern the shot did not.  

 

I have been doing yoga consistently 4 hours per week for 5 months now and it has been fantastic for my body and freeing up my range of motion and my instructor is constantly monitoring my progress and trying to get that one tick more of improvement out of me each session but she knows that for me to get to the end goal is a process and takes time and she makes sure that I know that.  Golf is no different in that it is a process and through repetition and proper guidance we can all find our way that will trigger consistent and lasting improvement.  The same way your level of comprehension of yoga techniques are on a different level than most can comprehend I am sure that you can explain things to me in a way that will trigger an aha moment and help me progress because you are observing me from a higher level of understanding. Of course at first I will have no clue what you are telling me, but in time things become clearer.  Golf is no different in that my goal isn't for you to get it all in one day, it is to understand and fully comprehend in time and that takes repeated exposure whether it is yoga, golf, physics, or calculus.  Also hitting balls from your non dominant side is not only eye opening but very good for maintaining balance in the body and everyone should do it!  

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

There used to be a conventional wisdom that high hands, once piece takeaway initiated by shoulders, and closed face going back were a package, and that low hands, early wrist c0ck, arm based takeaway, and club rotation went together.

 

23 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

 

 

I couldn't agree with all of this more. For YOU. (And it's a beautiful journey, and a powerful motion. Thanks for sharing. Seriously.)

 

But try teaching this to an 80yo grandmother. (Actually, scratch that, I know an 80yo grandmother this would be PERFECT instruction for. But there will be some people who will stare at you like you're speaking Greek.)

I've been a yoga teacher for 25 years, and one thing I've learned is: what works for me does NOT work for everyone. I have shared cues that took me decades to refine, that for me are brilliant and concise and the stars aligning in the universe etc, and some students look at me like I just took a dump on my mat.

My son's difficulties in school taught me that different brains learn differently. And even though you may be EXACTLY right about how the body works, and assisting the momentum of the club, etc, how that TRANSLATES into tips and cues for different brains will be different.

Keep up the great work. (I putt and practice-swing lefty. Big believer in the benefits of working from 'both sides.')

 

This is all so wrong.  Nobody has a natural swing or a natural walk.  You have to learn both, and some people never learn to do either right.

 

That being said, learning to either walk or swing properly is not as hard as people think.  Some children learn to do both implicitly quite well.  Adults for whatever reason appear not to learn implicitly as well and need to adopt a more “technical” perspective, but it’s still not rocket science, merely the rotation of the body in two planes (coronal and sagittal ) planes at once.

[Zitlow]

Old school using momentum to sync up the joints. . 

 

 

 

[northgolf]

3 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

 

This is all so wrong.  Nobody has a natural swing or a natural walk.  You have to learn both, and some people never learn to do either right.

 

I would argue that there is such a thing as a "natural swing"; that is, there is a golf swing that matches the timings and accelerations of a pendulum, to whit, Ernest Jones/Manuel de La Torre.

 

Both of these instructors focused on the feel of a swing and that was fitting when they played golf and is still absolutely correct if you want to play an easily enjoyable round.

 

As to not having a natural walk, are you suffering dementia due to excessive toddler face plants?

[rbpwrx]

4 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

There used to be a conventional wisdom that high hands, once piece takeaway initiated by shoulders, and closed face going back were a package, and that low hands, early wrist c0ck, arm based takeaway, and club rotation went together.

 

 

This is all so wrong.  Nobody has a natural swing or a natural walk.  You have to learn both, and some people never learn to do either right.

 

That being said, learning to either walk or swing properly is not as hard as people think.  Some children learn to do both implicitly quite well.  Adults for whatever reason appear not to learn implicitly as well and need to adopt a more “technical” perspective, but it’s still not rocket science, merely the rotation of the body in two planes (coronal and sagittal ) planes at once.

Anything that starts "this is all so wrong" is inevitably going to be all so wrong. Of course there's a natural golf swing. Some people have it, some people don't. Just like there's a natural singing voice. My niece could read at two years old. Taught herself. My son could hit a ball anywhere with anything. There are natural gifts and natural skills. With golf, some people pick up a club, and it just comes naturally. With something like walking, which is an innate skill honed through many hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, obviously everyone is a natural. My son ran before he walked. True story. 

[kevinmdowney]

On 7/14/2022 at 8:35 PM, jonsnow said:

I started playing during the early 1970s when the big, wide arc & late wrist set of Jack Nicklaus was what we copied. In the early 1970s I took a series of lessons that led to my swing becoming more connected & rotational with less lateral movement along with an earlier set of the wrists. As I've gotten older I've drifted away from the earlier wrist set in an effort to maintain the distance I'm starting to lose. I always equated a late wrist set with a wider arc & more potential for distance. But I've been watching some videos of Sam Burns & he seems to set the wrists fairly early. I know I struck the ball better when I set the wrists earlier, getting them fully set by left arm parallel. Chasing width & setting the wrists later seems to lead me to throwing away my wrist set earlier on the downswing & I also feel like I have more difficulty getting the club in the same positions consistently on my backswing. I struggle to keep my arms from getting disconnected from my pivot.

 

How early do you set your wrists? Is there a tradeoff in potential distance versus consistent solid contact between an early & a late setting of the wrists? Thanks!

Honestly, I don’t think about the swing that way. Take club back straight (more or less). Very soft grip. As soon as my brain acknowledges club is going back, I fire my left hip. Arms, hands and club follow on their own. I don’t “pull” on club with hands.

 

PS. Added video - and I am way too hunched over, dip too much coming down, and don’t get a full turn. Needs work!

Edited July 25, 2022 by kevinmdowney

[Chunkitgood]

Meant coronal and transverse planes above.  Not words I use every day.

[jonsnow]

7 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

Meant coronal and transverse planes above.  Not words I use every day.

Who among us does?

[coops]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:03 AM, rbpwrx said:

Anything that starts "this is all so wrong" is inevitably going to be all so wrong. Of course there's a natural golf swing. Some people have it, some people don't. Just like there's a natural singing voice. My niece could read at two years old. Taught herself. My son could hit a ball anywhere with anything. There are natural gifts and natural skills. With golf, some people pick up a club, and it just comes naturally. With something like walking, which is an innate skill honed through many hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, obviously everyone is a natural. My son ran before he walked. True story. 

 

I'll just point out that Monte Scheinblum has posted about his having to learn to walk properly...

 

 

"This is a debate that shouldn’t be a debate.  People say there should not be any manipulation or active motion in the swing.   That’s a great sentiment if all of us did everything well in the swing.  That’s like saying a swing should be as natural as walking.  Well, I walked like crap for 50 years and needed multiple active movements to get things right."

 

Evolution doesn't mean you pop out of the womb being able to walk - it means the human body has evolved to be capable of walking (after learning how to do it), and running and enjoying beer.

 

And just because you can learn on your own to walk and run 'naturally', doesn't mean you're going to do those things as efficiently or safely as your body is capable of.

I can run - but I also know my 'natural' running style is terrible.

 

To get back to the original question... i'd like to set my wrists like this :-

Maria Fassi

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by coops

[rbpwrx]

On 7/23/2022 at 5:20 PM, rd1959 said:

Calvin Peete did alright with a modified swing.

What an excellent role model! What was his impairment?

[Saijin]

a girl I was helping with the backswing the other day asked me this exact question. And I said everyone is different.

 

Me personally the longer the club like 3i or driver the bigger is my arc to the top. Shorter irons and wedges I'm about right hip high that I start to set, I feel like I'm rotating my shoulders at the same pace my left hand pushes the butt down.

 

I find that if I set my clubs too early I won't have a bigger / complete turn for power and path.

 

So to each its own.

[PhillipG78]

I let it happen naturally between p2 and p3 with my wide takeway moment hinges the wrists for me.

[Wally Zanger]

Wrist c0ck, as it refers to radial deviation, is set at address and, IMO, should be maintained but no further “cocking” or “setting” should occur. The wrists should be loose enough to allow for ulnar deviation, supination and some flexion to occur in downswing which leads to fwd shaft lean, compression. But that should be a product of rotational centrifugal force not a forced position. Increasing wrist c0ck on backswing requires subsequent uncocking or casting which is squirrelly at best.  

Edited July 30, 2022 by Wally Zanger

[slytown]

Ive recently been working on this shorter backswing but i lost my wrist hinge. Ive always had a gradual wrist hinge. For a while i did it too late. At the moment i dont have enough.