Putting Clarification

[ChaosTheory]

@bargolf

When I used your method for finding the distance from the ball where I saw the line correctly, that worked great.  However I then was far enough from the ball that I had quite an arc stroke, which made it harder to have the right face angle at impact.  As a result I actually made fewer putts.

 

My solution has been to use a line on the ball or a spot in front of the ball, combined with a closer ball position and less arc.  My left to right dispersion is better.  How best to proceed?

[hegelsbagels]

@bargolf I’m right handed, right eye dominant, and have tendencies to aim right and pull putts (not sure which order the causation is). I’m able to calibrate my perception of straight without a club by using a straight line reference in front of the ball pointing at the hole. However, when I introduce a club it always feels as though the club is aimed right of target. How would you recommend trying to fix this?

[Toolish]

10 hours ago, bargolf said:

Hi Toolish

Bad guy to ask. I think it is very important. In theory your current putter swings you. Ultra heavy. As you are happy with that it sounds like you have found a weight that works for you. You could try an Anser style. A roll of lead tape, a counter weighted grip and you should have reasonable comparison. However, the putter you have is the ultimate linear low rotation design. Anser with a plumbers neck is not.

 

Ok, that makes sense.  

 

Would a Scotty phantom 9.5 fit the bill, or a spider X.  Maybe something a bit more mid feel.

 

I don't really have a local place I would trust for fitting, the local shop offers it but not sure I trust it so I want to go in armed with some knowledge!

[bargolf]

2 minutes ago, Toolish said:

 

Ok, that makes sense.  

 

Would a Scotty phantom 9.5 fit the bill, or a spider X.  Maybe something a bit more mid feel.

 

I don't really have a local place I would trust for fitting, the local shop offers it but not sure I trust it so I want to go in armed with some knowledge!

I couldn’t recommend without knowing more about your stroke. Sorry.

[bargolf]

2 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

@bargolf

When I used your method for finding the distance from the ball where I saw the line correctly, that worked great.  However I then was far enough from the ball that I had quite an arc stroke, which made it harder to have the right face angle at impact.  As a result I actually made fewer putts.

 

My solution has been to use a line on the ball or a spot in front of the ball, combined with a closer ball position and less arc.  My left to right dispersion is better.  How best to proceed?

The line in the ball is a solid solution. The goal of the vision test is to identify a problem. The line is a solution. When you are off the ball we need to work on trail hand a release point. We have found that it is often easier to control speed when you are off the ball. Lots of other parameters to consider. You can always email me directly.

[bargolf]

1 hour ago, hegelsbagels said:

@bargolf I’m right handed, right eye dominant, and have tendencies to aim right and pull putts (not sure which order the causation is). I’m able to calibrate my perception of straight without a club by using a straight line reference in front of the ball pointing at the hole. However, when I introduce a club it always feels as though the club is aimed right of target. How would you recommend trying to fix this?

 

1. Move the ball more forward in your stance, so the club is positioned where the ball was without the club. 
2. If that doesn’t work it could be the putter appearance. Something tells me it is the amount of offset as it relates to your eyes.

[Augster]

2 hours ago, bargolf said:

OK start with matching length of stroke to the length of the putt. Put a tee into the ground a distance behind the ball. Then make a stroke within that backswing length. How far does the ball roll? Do that for awhile until you are comfortable. Then change the stroke length and repeat. No target yet just stroke and distance. Get a feel for a short, a medium  length and a long stroke. Then add a target and see if you can match it up judging by stroke length only.

Will do. Thanks for the help!

[lagster]

22 hours ago, Toolish said:

How important is it to get fit for a putter?

 

I hate the way my current putter (Daddy Long Legs Taylor Made) looks but I putt ok with it,  I much prefer the look of Anser style but don't put as well with them.  Is there a chance I find some specs on the Anser style that might make it put more like the mallet.

 

Also, best drills for home putting on a mat/carpet.

Try the Odyssey 5k, I think it's awesome. Blade look, mallet results

 

[hurley999s]

@bargolf

 

for as long as I can remember, I’ve had the short back / long thru stroke. I never really questioned it until hearing about Cam Smith at the Open. I don’t recall if it was him, his coach, or announcers, but it was mentioned that he does the opposite which is a longer backstroke and more abbreviated thru stroke. 
 

im not opposed to tinkering with putting, so curious on your thoughts on this. And if you have any affirmative thoughts, do you have any particular drills or practice tips to help ingrain the feel?

[bargolf]

9 hours ago, hurley999s said:

@bargolf

 

for as long as I can remember, I’ve had the short back / long thru stroke. I never really questioned it until hearing about Cam Smith at the Open. I don’t recall if it was him, his coach, or announcers, but it was mentioned that he does the opposite which is a longer backstroke and more abbreviated thru stroke. 
 

im not opposed to tinkering with putting, so curious on your thoughts on this. And if you have any affirmative thoughts, do you have any particular drills or practice tips to help ingrain the feel?

It seems to depend on which side of your body is dominant in the stroke. Lead side dominant will have shorter backswings and longer follow throughs. Trail side will have longer backswings and shorter follow throughs. Also, how you anchor has an influence. So if you are on your back foot short to long is easier, on the front foot, long short is more likely. Understanding what you do is critical. I try not to recommend a drill before I know the players stroke. It has served me well.

[larrybud]

On 9/26/2022 at 1:40 PM, getitdaily said:

Or just ask him a ?

 

Bruce knows more about putting, putters, and marrying the two than anyone on these forums....

 

This is like Michael Phelps asking if anyone has questions about swimming...

 

Don't know who he is or what he's referring to.

[getitdaily]

14 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

Don't know who he is or what he's referring to.

He's dedicated a ton of time over the years understanding everything putting; stroke types, putter design, stroke tendencies, putter static weight and swingweight, setup, etc...and how they all play together.

 

Check out his blog...a plethora of info and snippets...

https://bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/?m=1

[iceman1118]

20 hours ago, bargolf said:

Are we talking about putting or full swing? In putting I am looking for square at impact. You are closed. The farther back I play the ball the less likely I am to be closed at impact. If you aim right you are looking to the right. Turn your head so you look more left. Think about it. If you aim right and you should in theory miss right. So do you aim more left or react to the right miss by manipulating the golf club? UGL is not about "offsetting the matchups at all. It is about using your known tendencies to produce good golf shots. Side cover are predisposed to hitting fades. They must make changes to produce hooks. Can you do it another way? Sure. But the data is pretty clear you limit your ability to produce speed in full swing or control the face.

 

This makes some sense. Was talking full swing and putting by the way, same thing to me here. 
 

I think my aim causes some issues. For example, I think I took “closed” to an extreme, meaning I aim right. As opposed to aim at the target and drop the right foot back a bit  to close off the stance. So I bet my brain knew I was aimed way right and tried to correct me. 

[nosil]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:21 PM, bargolf said:

Hey! Yes is the short answer. To your specific example, if you bend over far enough to clear room for your arms, you end up off balance toward the ball. The tendency is to then pull out of the putt.

Based on listening to your recent podcast appearances, my understanding is that you still evaluate  vision first, build posture around that, identify source of motion, and then look for conflicts in this setup. Now you  have added the bio mechanical aspect to help more thoroughly evaluate for potential conflicts, better recommendations for sources of motion and grip, and things that would make you off balance as a player?  These findings identify the model you fit within which helps determine the needs a player has in a putter?     Basically the same things we have discussed in the past, but you have learned more and can provide more clarification to the player? 
 

thanks again for taking time to respond and help educate; the information you provide is fascinating!

[getitdaily]

Bruce 

 

Have you observed any correlation between stroke tempo and counterweighting?

 

Counterweight better for slower tempo vs faster...and vice-versa, non counterweight better for slower/faster tempo?

[jonsnow]

On 9/26/2022 at 10:34 PM, Toolish said:

How important is it to get fit for a putter?

 

I hate the way my current putter (Daddy Long Legs Taylor Made) looks but I putt ok with it,  I much prefer the look of Anser style but don't put as well with them.  Is there a chance I find some specs on the Anser style that might make it put more like the mallet.

 

Also, best drills for home putting on a mat/carpet.

Bobby Grace had a putter years ago that was an Anser style head with a double bend shaft & was face balanced. I can't remember the model but it sounds like what you might be looking for.

[golftech]

Bruce,

 

It is great to see you on here providing your putting wisdom.  When I’ve tried your vision test my head moves back (toward trail foot) and more inside.  This might explain that when my putting was consistently good in my  junior and college days, I felt like Ben Crenshaw looked to me - a taller, rear post setup with eyes back and inside,

ball forward off left heel, lead arm hanging without tension & trail elbow slightly bent and reaching across my body at setup.  
 

Today when I use this posture I see the aim much better, but tend to close clubface slightly at impact.  I end up with a slightly hooking roll of the ball.  Is that bad?  I can move ball toward middle of stance to correct, but then my head wants to drift even further back and I feel off balance. Thanks

[hurley999s]

6 hours ago, bargolf said:

It seems to depend on which side of your body is dominant in the stroke. Lead side dominant will have shorter backswings and longer follow throughs. Trail side will have longer backswings and shorter follow throughs. Also, how you anchor has an influence. So if you are on your back foot short to long is easier, on the front foot, long short is more likely. Understanding what you do is critical. I try not to recommend a drill before I know the players stroke. It has served me well.

That is tremendously helpful and very eye opening. I never considered those relationships before but conceptually it makes sense.
 

In putting I try to be balanced in terms of side of dominance, but if I had to choose, I’d go with trail side (I’m righty, so right side) - I feel more of a push instead of a pull in the stroke.

 

in terms of anchoring, definitely more biased to lead (left) side 

 

 

[bargolf]

18 hours ago, golftech said:

Bruce,

 

It is great to see you on here providing your putting wisdom.  When I’ve tried your vision test my head moves back (toward trail foot) and more inside.  This might explain that when my putting was consistently good in my  junior and college days, I felt like Ben Crenshaw looked to me - a taller, rear post setup with eyes back and inside,

ball forward off left heel, lead arm hanging without tension & trail elbow slightly bent and reaching across my body at setup.  
 

Today when I use this posture I see the aim much better, but tend to close clubface slightly at impact.  I end up with a slightly hooking roll of the ball.  Is that bad?  I can move ball toward middle of stance to correct, but then my head wants to drift even further back and I feel off balance. Thanks

Vision is just the first step. In basic terms the ball is too far left? of your head. So head back - ball forward asks me to shift my weight in the forward swing, or extend the trail arm. If my trail grip doesn’t match the extension closes the face. Try a very narrow stance. Effectively moves the ball toward your vision/balance position, but maintains the left heel reference.

[bargolf]

21 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Bruce 

 

Have you observed any correlation between stroke tempo and counterweighting?

 

Counterweight better for slower tempo vs faster...and vice-versa, non counterweight better for slower/faster tempo?

Overall weight will influence tempo. 

Counterweight influences  stroke length, no doubt. Stroke length certainly has an influence on tempo.

[ChaosTheory]

It’s being said that on off center hits, high MOI mallets with the COG rearward will still go about the right distance but will send the ball more offline.  And that blade type putters are the opposite, more online but they will lose some distance.  Do you find this to be true?

[bargolf]

19 hours ago, golftech said:

Bruce,

 

It is great to see you on here providing your putting wisdom.  When I’ve tried your vision test my head moves back (toward trail foot) and more inside.  This might explain that when my putting was consistently good in my  junior and college days, I felt like Ben Crenshaw looked to me - a taller, rear post setup with eyes back and inside,

ball forward off left heel, lead arm hanging without tension & trail elbow slightly bent and reaching across my body at setup.  
 

Today when I use this posture I see the aim much better, but tend to close clubface slightly at impact.  I end up with a slightly hooking roll of the ball.  Is that bad?  I can move ball toward middle of stance to correct, but then my head wants to drift even further back and I feel off balance. Thanks

Try a very narrow stance. Easier to stay balanced but still have the left heel visual. Narrow stance effectively moves the ball back in the stance.

[bargolf]

11 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

It’s being said that on off center hits, high MOI mallets with the COG rearward will still go about the right distance but will send the ball more offline.  And that blade type putters are the opposite, more online but they will lose some distance.  Do you find this to be true?

Not really. A mis-hit is a mis-hit in terms of make or miss. The advantage of a mallet is that it masks the feel of the mis-hit. Feels solid but I still miss the putt. When you consider design to rotational requirements of your posture, you tend to strike the ball more consistently in the same spot. That is the best result.

[nosil]

20 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

It’s being said that on off center hits, high MOI mallets with the COG rearward will still go about the right distance but will send the ball more offline.  And that blade type putters are the opposite, more online but they will lose some distance.  Do you find this to be true?

someone watched the TXG Quintic putter fitting video 😄

[bargolf]

On 9/28/2022 at 8:27 AM, iceman1118 said:

This makes some sense. Was talking full swing and putting by the way, same thing to me here. 
 

I think my aim causes some issues. For example, I think I took “closed” to an extreme, meaning I aim right. As opposed to aim at the target and drop the right foot back a bit  to close off the stance. So I bet my brain knew I was aimed way right and tried to correct me. 

Is it fair to say that your feet and how they are aligned influence your aim?

 

[iceman1118]

30 minutes ago, bargolf said:

Is it fair to say that your feet and how they are aligned influence your aim?

 

Absolutely. I am heavily right eye dominant. So I think by closing my stance I aim right and then I am looking over my left shoulder to see the target. It never felt correct. And I think thats why my miss is always left because my brain knows I am not aimed where I am trying to go. Swing and putter mind you.

[KMeloney]

Hey Bargolf -- With an off-the-rack putter with "standard" loft, how much consideration should be given to the idea that a toe-down/higher-hands set up and stroke will point the loft right and put a rightward influence on the putt (and the opposite being true for a toe-up/lower-hands set up and stroke)? Is the influence real or negligible? If it's real, does it make more sense to find which condition allows for the best stroke and forget the influence, or should we always be seeking to improve our stroke with a set up where the putter head flat on the ground?

 

TIA.

[bargolf]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:34 AM, KMeloney said:

Hey Bargolf -- With an off-the-rack putter with "standard" loft, how much consideration should be given to the idea that a toe-down/higher-hands set up and stroke will point the loft right and put a rightward influence on the putt (and the opposite being true for a toe-up/lower-hands set up and stroke)? Is the influence real or negligible? If it's real, does it make more sense to find which condition allows for the best stroke and forget the influence, or should we always be seeking to improve our stroke with a set up where the putter head flat on the ground?

 

TIA.

Hi. I think the most accurate comment I can make is that all can be true. My suggestion is there are about a million ways to influence a putting stroke. All of which has a chance of working or failing given the other influencers to the stroke. For the most part, what you suggest is true.

When the angle of the forearm and wrist is shallower than the shaft angle, the putter will often swing in and under the hands. when the forearms are on a more vertical plane than the shaft the putter swings away from the player or more outside in. One of the contributors to the theory you mention is the length of the players forearms relative to the total length of the arms, combined with the amount of spine tilt. Most of the time we find the wrist adjustments are forced by the dimensions of the putter. Primarily length. 

 

That is a long winded way of coming to my suggestion of starting with an accurate lie angle. It keeps things simpler.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by bargolf
Clarification

[nitram]

I haven't seen it addressed (my apologies in advance if it has), but what about hovering the putter vs grounding?

[bladehunter]

Mr Bruce.  Thank you in advance for giving your time and knowledge to us here.  I’m sure many like me have been reading every word and just haven’t commented yet.  
 

 

1. i wonder.   On using a line to aim in the ball. Do you ever see people who when using a line exhibit immediately  worse distance control ?  As in they fixate and in an attempt to roll that line they hit putts too hard.  
 

2.   This is a real question , but will sound half facetious.    Would you prefer a true roll as in end over end perfectly , or a wobbly roll that has a much higher make % ? And I’m speaking over time.  Does a true roll eventually have the potential of being best.  Or does the  slight wobbling hook stroke that is and feels natural make more sense if it makes putts and builds or maintains confidence .  
 

 

i make more putts with a toe down blade.  No ifs ands or butts. The stats say so.     But. It’s much harder and almost counter productive to try to use and line and roll that line  true. I’ve studied it recently and I’m hooking ( ever so slightly ) putts in.  It’s my natural , athletic feeling setup , and it just works.  
 

 

or I can use a mallet.   Say a lab mezz and easily get a perfect roll , time after time.  And make very little.   I try to adjust aim.  Then I miss on the low side.  Until it becomes a confidence killer , and down the dark hole I go.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by bladehunter