Driver query ….something I’ve observed that I just saw again on Tv

[bladehunter]

4 hours ago, amace04 said:

If that's accurate, you swing WAY too fast to only be going 295.

 

182 ballspeed is elite pro speed.

 

If I'm you, I'm trying to figure out how to translate that speed into distance, because you're leaving so much meat on the bones there.

To be fair , that was probably a data point to throw out as an outlier.  If you’d ask me before that swing I’d have said 175 was a top level swing.    For instance. Practice session today.  Cold , and I’m pretty tired from the week I’ve had. And as much as I worked , 167 was all I could see. And that fairway finder was dead on 160 , on repeat.    That’s what has been more normal lately.    The good days where I feel lubed up and free are fewer and farther between. On those days I can keep my hip bend and posture through the ball. On days like today. That’s a struggle. My lower back doesn’t like it. 
 

 

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, ac6 said:

 

To me this all just sounds like a driver fitting issue, assuming your AOA is the same for both your "bunt" swing and your all-out swing. Your driver is optimal for total distance under the conditions you generate with that slower swing. I'm sure there has to be an even lower-loft and stouter-shaft combo you haven't tried yet that could get you closer to optimal total distance for your hard swing. Of the guys you're talking about both Champ and Finau play the LST with loft cranked all the way down and already-stout shafts tipped 1.5-2". Bryson we know plays a 5* driver. 

Of course then you get into the question of, if you optimize for your hard swing then that smooth 165 mph/2000 rpm shot is now unusable as it's a 165 mph/1500 rpm ball that won't stay in the air or hold a line. But there has got to be a happy medium between there you can find. 

You are more right than you know.  
and I really hadn’t thought of it that way until now.  
 

I once said that I almost needed a winter driver and a summer driver.    But was kind of joking.   I last had a stealth 8 degree head that i absolutely murdered until the face came off.   Then a month later the replacement was never the same. I just never hit it well. And i absolutely couldn’t hit that little fairway finder with it. It was just a dead duck type flight.  Probably too low spin ?  Then cold came and I ditched it in favor of the ping head , which is easy to launch with 4 layers on .   Now I’m kind of in between 

[ac6]

17 hours ago, bladehunter said:

You are more right than you know.  
and I really hadn’t thought of it that way until now.  
 

I once said that I almost needed a winter driver and a summer driver.    But was kind of joking.   I last had a stealth 8 degree head that i absolutely murdered until the face came off.   Then a month later the replacement was never the same. I just never hit it well. And i absolutely couldn’t hit that little fairway finder with it. It was just a dead duck type flight.  Probably too low spin ?  Then cold came and I ditched it in favor of the ping head , which is easy to launch with 4 layers on .   Now I’m kind of in between 

 

Makes sense, though. Especially if you find your body/course conditions are really different from season to season, that's a totally legit reason to swap drivers 

[aggiegolfer21]

Regarding the Morikawa and Zalatoris shots, Zalatoris averaged 13.9 yards further on his drives in 2022.  There are a lot of factors that can cause any one shot to go shorter/longer.  Maybe Morikawa's drive hit a slight downslope and rolled more, maybe Zalatoris hit a soft spot.  Maybe Zalatoris missed his shot a little bit and Morikawa hit his perfect.  I don't think this example negates speed training.  If you do speed training, you do need to be able to control the spin, but that is best done via clubfitting, not changing your swing (unless it becomes absolutely necessary).  In addition, speed training isn't just about speed, it's also about accuracy.  Let's say I want to swing at 110 mph and I can do this by swinging at 90% of my max.  If I speed train, I may be able to swing at 75% and still hit the 110 mph, getting more accurate in the process.

[Hattie Pants]

Really surprised 10mph in ball speed is only worth 13 yards across all those data points. I’m with Blade, stay slow

and hit it straight 🙂

[bladehunter]

18 hours ago, aggiegolfer21 said:

Regarding the Morikawa and Zalatoris shots, Zalatoris averaged 13.9 yards further on his drives in 2022.  There are a lot of factors that can cause any one shot to go shorter/longer.  Maybe Morikawa's drive hit a slight downslope and rolled more, maybe Zalatoris hit a soft spot.  Maybe Zalatoris missed his shot a little bit and Morikawa hit his perfect.  I don't think this example negates speed training.  If you do speed training, you do need to be able to control the spin, but that is best done via clubfitting, not changing your swing (unless it becomes absolutely necessary).  In addition, speed training isn't just about speed, it's also about accuracy.  Let's say I want to swing at 110 mph and I can do this by swinging at 90% of my max.  If I speed train, I may be able to swing at 75% and still hit the 110 mph, getting more accurate in the process.

Sure. The bounces could possibly explain it. I’m just seeing a 10 mph difference on ballspeed.  And the balls are side by side. That’s huge in my opinion.  It’s not 2-3 mph.  There should be 20-30 yards between them at least.  

Edited January 29, 2023 by bladehunter

[mgoblue83]

Morikawa is not choosing to swing slower he's just optimized his launch conditions.

 

Compare Morikawa and Rory if you want to see what an extra 10mph of optimized speed can do for you.

 

Again, I guarantee that Morikawa would be swinging faster if he could.

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Sure. The bounces could possibly explain it. I’m just seeing a 10 mph difference on ballspeed.  And the balls are side by side. That’s huge in my opinion.  It’s not 2-3 mph.  There should be 20-30 yards between them at least.  

10mph of ball speed isn't 30 yards.

 

But I'm really not sure why you are getting so caught up on single instance where they ended up side by side. A lot of things factor into total distance, that doesn't mean there is some unknown secret to swinging slower. Zalatoris on average hits it about 15 yards farther. 

 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

10mph of ball speed isn't 30 yards.

 

But I'm really not sure why you are getting so caught up on single instance where they ended up side by side. A lot of things factor into total distance, that doesn't mean there is some unknown secret to swinging slower. Zalatoris on average hits it about 15 yards farther. 

 

Eh. It’s not really being hung up. It’s something I’ve noticed forever.  And this happened to be one instance I saw in real time. They’d be many if you took the time to parse it out in any one day’s tournament coverage.   I just cannot find the supposed advantage in trying to hit driver 100 % .  Above a serviceable speed. Somewhere around 165mph ballspeed. If you can become accurate there , it’s a much less stressful way to live , and you’ll win just as often as the guy with 200 mph ballspeed. Maybe more. 

 

take morikowa.  I don’t think there’s any planet where getting him to chase even 5 mph ballspeed would be a good idea.  
 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by bladehunter

[FormerBigDaddy]

Good thread. 
 

I read somewhere that 1 mph ball speed = about 2yds and 1 mph of swing speed is around 2.5 yds. Obviously on average all things considered. Do those numbers sound right?

 

Ive been going heavy on speed training this off-season and workouts.  My goal was to gain 5mph on course SS (with same effort). I’m 6 weeks in a close to that goal already. Thinking I might reach about a 7mph gain on course. 
 

Got some numbers on the sim before starting speed training and found that I was already a pretty high launch low spin guy. Carrying it about 260 on good swings with my 105mph swing. I totally assume that I’ll need a fitting this spring to optimize my new speed. Right now hitting 10.5 stealth plus in Diamana zf stiff shaft. Super curious where I end up and what changes I might have to make equipment wise. 
 

To me you can’t go wrong with speed. Figure out how to control it later. 

[bladehunter]

5 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Morikawa is not choosing to swing slower he's just optimized his launch conditions.

 

Compare Morikawa and Rory if you want to see what an extra 10mph of optimized speed can do for you.

 

Again, I guarantee that Morikawa would be swinging faster if he could.

I just don’t buy that.  A 20 something can’t train to swing faster ?  Why ?  How ?  He’s not slow.  So all he has to do is raise his body’s idea of what will hurt him.  Then the speed  will increase. He’s absolutely in balance , not a hint of out of his shoes.    Watch his footwork.  He’s in complete control. There’s absolutely more speed there.  
 

watch homa on Sunday at Torrey.  Half his swings are cruisers.  There’s no matt Fitzpatrick “steroid  jerk “ there.  

Edited January 29, 2023 by bladehunter

[Krt22]

33 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

 
 

watch homa on Sunday at Torrey.  Half his swings are cruisers.  There’s no matt Fitzpatrick “steroid  jerk “ there.  

Homa is actively working on adding speed. He also has 3" and 30lbs on Fitzpatrick. Hard to compare the two based on some notion of perceived effort. But one of the main goals of speed training is using less effort for the same or more outputs. His "half" swings were still 175mph+

 

And Fitzpatrick's "steroid jerk" helped him win last year's US open. Before he started adding speed he was 59th in SG off the tee, then went to 25th. Last year he was 10th (and number 2 overall). He hasn't added the 40lbs he said he could, but he has added speed and it's clearly helping his game

 

 

[bladehunter]

9 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Homa is actively working on adding speed. He also has 3" and 30lbs on Fitzpatrick. Hard to compare the two based on some notion of perceived effort. But one of the main goals of speed training is using less effort for the same or more outputs. His "half" swings were still 175mph+

 

And Fitzpatrick's "steroid jerk" helped him win last year's US open. Before he started adding speed he was 59th in SG off the tee, then went to 25th. Last year he was 10th (and number 2 overall). He hasn't added the 40lbs he said he could, but he has added speed and it's clearly helping his game

 

 

Ok.   Now that gets us back into the topic I meant to discuss. I realize I’m easily distracted.  Morikowa adding speed or not isn’t the conversation.  So my fault for veering. 
 

the conversation is ,   Does it benefit the finau, and Homas of the world to use their max speed ?  Or to simply posses  it , in case and more importantly to make the usable speed be less effort ?  
 

I couldn’t put it into words before. But your comments on Homa clicked it in my mind.  
 

Now scale this to the regular joes 6200-6800 yard course.  I think discipline to not swing hard at a driver would benefit most ams. The severely distance challenged maybe an exception.  

[Krt22]

Sasho Mackenzie, one of the main sped guys, who has a very expensive speed system, says a key point of speed training is to raise your max speed ceiling, such that your on course swing will.br faster with less effort. Not to swing 100% on every swing

 

But a 15 handicap speed training is honestly different than a professional. They focus on trying to add speed to their flawed swings, they typically don't know how to effectively/properly add speed. IMHO most of them would benefit more from fixing their speed robbing compensations vs trying to speed up their flawed swing. They would add speed and consistency, then speed training, weights, etc would further supplement. Simply swinging easier in their case is a bandaid. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Krt22

[Valtiel]

On 1/27/2023 at 7:50 AM, bladehunter said:

I don’t 100 % know what my question is.  If that’s possible.  I just know that it kind of causes me to balk on the whole “ more speed is better “ idea because I can’t unlock the “ keep spin down “ thing.  

This is why Bryson took the approach he did trying to get longer. It's not enough to get faster, you also have to max out launch conditions. Higher launch, lower spin, hotter flight etc. Everything else about launch conditions has been covered above though so I won't add to that. 
 

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I just don’t buy that.  A 20 something can’t train to swing faster ?  Why ?  How ?  He’s not slow.  

IMO it's the grip he chooses to employ. What makes him such an elite iron player is also what makes him shorter; slower hands overall. 



His ceiling in terms of flash hand speed IMO is lower due to his extremely weak left hand and mashed together long left thumb setup. He moves his body as fast as anyone, especially his hips, but the hands are quieter, hence the fade + high iron accuracy + slower driver. 

[GolfTurkey]

Morikawa's ball speed is 170 now. 

 

It's up around 5mph since he first arrived on the scene, which isn't that unusual (think of Spieth). Guys get stronger, swing gets more efficient, they specifically target speed etc.

 

Plenty fast for a small guy. When they show certain camera angles, he looks like he's trying to roast it IMO. The efficient / smooth guys can disguise the effort. 

[ac6]

1 hour ago, GolfTurkey said:

Morikawa's ball speed is 170 now. 

 

It's up around 5mph since he first arrived on the scene, which isn't that unusual (think of Spieth). Guys get stronger, swing gets more efficient, they specifically target speed etc.

 

Plenty fast for a small guy. When they show certain camera angles, he looks like he's trying to roast it IMO. The efficient / smooth guys can disguise the effort. 

 

Morikawa has consistently also been above average in SG off the tee throughout his career, so whatever he's doing now is clearly working well for him despite his middling distance. Hits it long enough and hits a ton of fairways, which plays into his strengths. More speed is a nice to have but not a must-have for him at this point imo. It's not like Fitzpatrick's situation where he was clearly losing strokes to the field off the tee early on in his career and had to fix that glaring weakness

[bladehunter]

11 hours ago, Valtiel said:

This is why Bryson took the approach he did trying to get longer. It's not enough to get faster, you also have to max out launch conditions. Higher launch, lower spin, hotter flight etc. Everything else about launch conditions has been covered above though so I won't add to that. 
 

IMO it's the grip he chooses to employ. What makes him such an elite iron player is also what makes him shorter; slower hands overall. 

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His ceiling in terms of flash hand speed IMO is lower due to his extremely weak left hand and mashed together long left thumb setup. He moves his body as fast as anyone, especially his hips, but the hands are quieter, hence the fade + high iron accuracy + slower driver. 

Kind of funny.  My natural playing grip is very close to his. Right hand mirrors the clubface.  Except I also have a slightly longer right thumb.  I pinch.  Right thumb and trigger finger. Never understood the right thumb laying left.  His looks to be pinching somewhat. Not just loose.  
 

anyway said that to say you're probably onto  something.  When I really work on ramping up driver speed, I’ll usually use a strong overlap grip.  But my opinion on the strong grip  is this.  It’s a pitiful way to play the game.   Approach. Wedges. Chipping.  Blah.  Big hooks , or big blocks.  Feels out of control.  No way to orient for where the face is. Makes me wonder why a similar grip isn’t at least taught to amateurs , they could do  with more  straight and less OB balls I’d say.  But I get that some are so distance challenged that a horrible swing won’t go out of play , it just doesn’t go far enough.  That’s not who I’m talking about.

 

 

[mikpga]

More club head speed = More backspin

[TLUBulldogGolf]

On 1/27/2023 at 9:14 AM, bladehunter said:

If so why is it that the faster we swing the more spin we impart ?

 

This is just physics and applies across the entire bag. 

 

On 1/27/2023 at 9:50 AM, bladehunter said:

I don’t 100 % know what my question is.  If that’s possible.  I just know that it kind of causes me to balk on the whole “ more speed is better “ idea because I can’t unlock the “ keep spin down “ thing.   165-170ish mph seems to be the sweet spot.  More isn’t usable unless it’s also low-er spin. I’m not talking knuckle balls.  I’m saying below 3k.   Obviously some guys figure this out ( finau , Bryson , champ ) 

 

it used to bother me more when  I was in my 30s and a good bit faster   than I am now.  43 now and it’s getting  to the point of just a curiosity, because time is taking speed away anyhow , so it’s coming back to a low spin situation out of nature not skill.  If that makes sense? 

 

My take is that your driver should fit you well at your 'max' playing speed swing. For example my driver is no where close to 3K at max speed unless I neck the hell out of it, and that's with a 10 degree head and mid 170s ball speed. It's typically 2200-2600 but I feel like it strikes a decent balance between control and distance. With how low spin most of the heads are now you should be able to find something that can manage it, but there is a trade off as it will be more difficult to control. 

 

17 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Ok.   Now that gets us back into the topic I meant to discuss. I realize I’m easily distracted.  Morikowa adding speed or not isn’t the conversation.  So my fault for veering. 
 

the conversation is ,   Does it benefit the finau, and Homas of the world to use their max speed ?  Or to simply posses  it , in case and more importantly to make the usable speed be less effort ?  
 

I couldn’t put it into words before. But your comments on Homa clicked it in my mind.  
 

Now scale this to the regular joes 6200-6800 yard course.  I think discipline to not swing hard at a driver would benefit most ams. The severely distance challenged maybe an exception.  

 

I believe the thinking is that possessing a higher ceiling makes your course swing mechanics more consistent. I don't think it benefits them to use their max as they are already top 50ish on tour in ball speed with a 'cruise' swing. There might be certain holes where they can reach back for more, but Homa was talking with the NLU guys about how Torrey was playing and how you really needed to be in the fairway if you wanted to make birdies. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[bladehunter]

58 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

This is just physics and applies across the entire bag. 

 

 

My take is that your driver should fit you well at your 'max' playing speed swing. For example my driver is no where close to 3K at max speed unless I neck the hell out of it, and that's with a 10 degree head and mid 170s ball speed. With how low spin most of the heads are now you should be able to find something that can manage it, but there is a trade off as it will be more difficult to control. 

I wish it were that easy.  For me.  I agree in premise.  But I’ve left more than one fitter shaking his head after trying every thing he had and not finding anything closer.   For fun I’ll gear  down in the fitting and hit that 2000 rpm fade that feels like a bunt.  Just to show him that the trackman isn’t broken.  Once did this and went from right at 4K to 2200 in 2 swings. The lower speed one went way farther in total.    The only answer I have is in my hands.  On one I feel  very passive. On the other very active and fast.  You can’t swing fast without fast hands.  Same feeling I have if I’m hitting a dead wedge vs one I want to spin.  And I can impart loads  of spin on a 30-40 yard lob wedge.  Part gift part curse.  Which is why I’ve just tried to play the passive slower shot.  
 

 

Last good combo I had was a stealth plus  8 degree head with a Kai li 7x tip trimmed an inch.  Then the face came off. 

 

part of this thinking for me is probably parallel to what you posted on Homa.  I don’t play many course where you can score from the rough.  4 inch Bermuda. Or dormant Bermuda isn’t fun even if from 70 yards.  And most are tight old tree courses.  Just not a good idea to miss many fairways.  Or you’ll play defense all day. 
 

Edited January 30, 2023 by bladehunter

[TLUBulldogGolf]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I wish it were that easy.  For me.  I agree in premise.  But I’ve left more than one fitter shaking his head after trying every thing he had and not finding anything closer.   For fun I’ll gear  down in the fitting and hit that 2000 rpm fade that feels like a bunt.  Just to show him that the trackman isn’t broken.  Once did this and went from right at 4K to 2200 in 2 swings. The lower speed one went way farther in total.    The only answer I have is in my hands.  On one I feel  very passive. On the other very active and fast.  You can’t swing fast without fast hands.  Same feeling I have if I’m hitting a dead wedge vs one I want to spin.  And I can impart loads  of spin on a 30-40 yard lob wedge.  Part gift part curse.  Which is why I’ve just tried to play the passive slower shot.  
 

 

Last good combo I had was a stealth plus  8 degree head with a Kai li 7x tip trimmed an inch.  Then the face came off. 

 

 

If you have good hands you can probably feel that it has too much spin off the face, at least I can. It might mainly be a reaction to the strike and flight off the driver but I can definitely feel if I have spun it off a wedge. I am also not a low spin player, I spin the ball as much as anyone off the irons, maybe in part due to playing more traditional lofts but I can make pretty much any iron stop really quickly.

 

As for driver, I used to always be in 8.5 low spin heads but I've found modern heads spin the ball less and less, it's either finding that combo that works or resolving whatever change is happening between that 2200 and 4K swing. I feel that if conditions are allowing for roll my stock flight is still going to allow that while maximizing carry pretty well. 

[Krt22]

12 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Once did this and went from right at 4K to 2200 in 2 swings. The lower speed one went way farther in total.    The only answer I have is in my hands.  

You very likely add loft when you go after one, very common. If you are adding loft, it's also much more likely to hit it lower on the face. It's not the speed, it's your delivery conditions

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

You very likely add loft when you go after one, very common. If you are adding loft, it's also much more likely to hit it lower on the face. It's not the speed, it's your delivery conditions

Spot on.  And I don’t argue that one bit. Th miss goes from high toe to low middle if speed ( and loft ) is added.   How to counteract that is another story.  In the end it’s just what a miss there is. 
 

I think what I debate is the frequency of that miss vs just hitting the middle most times at a slower speed , and hitting the fairway with roll. 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

If you have good hands you can probably feel that it has too much spin off the face, at least I can. It might mainly be a reaction to the strike and flight off the driver but I can definitely feel if I have spun it off a wedge. I am also not a low spin player, I spin the ball as much as anyone off the irons, maybe in part due to playing more traditional lofts but I can make pretty much any iron stop really quickly.

 

As for driver, I used to always be in 8.5 low spin heads but I've found modern heads spin the ball less and less, it's either finding that combo that works or resolving whatever change is happening between that 2200 and 4K swing. I feel that if conditions are allowing for roll my stock flight is still going to allow that while maximizing carry pretty well. 

Bingo.  I always know instantly.  Frequently call a wedge at impact as good or bad. Loads of times playing partners don’t understand why I’m griping until they see it zip back. But I was able to fix that a couple years ago with path change .  As well as a better fitting iron shaft.  But driver is a harder animal to tame.  I’m just not convinced that the level for diminishing returns isn’t around 175 ballspeed.  Maybe lower.  Speaking of score in golf that is. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by bladehunter