Driver query ….something I’ve observed that I just saw again on Tv

[bladehunter]

Bare with me. I’ll try to make this make sense.  
 

 

 

used to play with a guy who was a good 10 or more mph slower than me with driver , but he hit this knuckling fade that would roll right up to my ball. His swing was just a bunt.  I mean it was so slow looking.  One day a pro we both know had trackman outside on our range.   So we both begged a few swings on it just to see what the numbers  were . Sure enough. That day he was 11 mph in ballspeed slower than me.  But he was way lower spin ( this was 6 years ago so I’m off memory ) and carry.  But more roll.  And yet he hit it higher.  And the total distances for us both were very much what you’d call statistically identical.  
 

because of that guy I developed this bunt fade with the feeling of passive hands and a bit more launch.   And saw my total distance  go up , while my ballspeed and spin came way down.  I’ll have days where I revert to what feels like a full swing.  And it works.  I don’t hit it bad. But it just rarely goes farther. So I’ll again practice this baby feeling swing.  
 

 

so yesterday I’m watching the 2nd round at Torrey and I happened tp see the tracer on the 9th tee shot for morikowa and then for zalatorious .     The numbers are this.  For morikowa 170 ballspeed and 296 carry.    For zalatorious 180 ballspeed and 305 carry.  308 total for both shots. The balls stopped side by side.  
 

 

so.  I guess I wonder.  Is this just a product of spin ?  I regret I didn’t see the spin numbers for those two shots.  But I suspect that is it.  If so why is it that the faster we swing the more spin we impart ? Is this just a modern driver thing , where the little low spin bunt just goes ?  And what does this say about speed training ?  Is it useless if you don’t also somehow figure out how to keep spin same ?
 

 

this isn’t me  looking for swing advice.  It’s more just a thing that’s always bugged me because I’ve played with so many people who can hit this optimal numbers shot with driver. And for me on a full rip , the total rarely matches what the ballspeed says it should be. But if I gear  down it’s optimal numbers for the ballspeed. If that makes any sense ?  

Edited January 27 by bladehunter

[AlohaPineapple]

on an off-axis strike, wouldn't increased speed amplify the spin?

[ObiwanForAll]

So funny you bring this up cause it’s what I’ve been experiencing. The harder I swing, the more spin I add. When I focus on getting hands forward and delivering the correct loft/strike I achieve better results at a slower swing speed. I suppose over time that would become second nature and I can swing harder.

Edited January 27 by ObiwanForAll

[Mitchell]

Based upon my experience with this personally, It’s a combination of spin/loft number and most probably strike location variance (ever so slightly in the low side of vertical ideal in center face contact)

Edited January 27 by nochrome

[Ri_Redneck]

A lot of it depends on your contact point. Higher contact gives lower spin and higher launch. Low on the face give higher spin and lower launch. Also, if your swing has any "flip"to it, that will also increase spin. There's a lot of things going on at impact and knowing all the details can help one understand it all. Try to get some time on a good LM and try both of those swings. Look at Dyn loft, AoA and contact point along with the other stuff.

 

BT

[MelloYello]

22 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Bare with me. I’ll try to make this make sense.  
 

 

 

used to play with a guy who was a good 10 or more mph slower than me with driver , but he hit this knuckling fade that would roll right up to my ball. His swing was just a bunt.  I mean it was so slow looking.  One day a pro we both know had trackman outside on our range.   So we both begged a few swings on it just to see what the numbers  were . Sure enough. That day he was 11 mph in ballspeed slower than me.  But he was way lower spin ( this was 6 years ago so I’m off memory ) and carry.  But more roll.  And yet he hit it higher.  And the total distances for us both were very much what you’d call statistically identical.  
 

because of that guy I developed this bunt fade with the feeling of passive hands and a bit more launch.   And saw my total distance  go up , while my ballspeed and spin came way down.  I’ll have days where I revert to what feels like a full swing.  And it works.  I don’t hit it bad. But it just rarely goes farther. So I’ll again practice this baby feeling swing.  
 

 

so yesterday I’m watching the 2nd round at Torrey and I happened tp see the tracer on the 9th tee shot for morikowa and then for zalatorious .     The numbers are this.  For morikowa 170 ballspeed and 296 carry.    For zalatorious 180 ballspeed and 305 carry.  308 total for both shots. The balls stopped side by side.  
 

 

so.  I guess I wonder.  Is this just a product of spin ?  I regret I didn’t see the spin numbers for those two shots.  But I suspect that is it.  If so why is it that the faster we swing the more spin we impart ? Is this just a modern driver thing , where the little low spin bunt just goes ?  And what does this say about speed training ?  Is it useless if you don’t also somehow figure out how to keep spin same ?
 

 

this isn’t me  looking for swing advice.  It’s more just a thing that’s always bugged me because I’ve played with so many people who can hit this optimal numbers shot with driver. And for me on a full rip , the total rarely matches what the ballspeed says it should be. But if I gear  down it’s optimal numbers for the ballspeed. If that makes any sense ?  

 

You're asking why faster swing speeds impart more spin given the same strike? 

 

Isn't that something we assume will happen? I don't know exactly the process but if you're compressing the ball more you get a different (often more substantial) effect on what comes out. This is the same reason higher SS players often require lower lofts on driver or why they can hit a low-lofted iron high in the air while slower players cannot. 

[golfinbrad]

There are several factors, but spin would be one.  You also have to look at launch, height and descent angles.  My guess Morikawa had a lower, flatter shot shaft which would lead to more roll vs Zalatoris had a higher flight that landed softer.  If does sound like a similar situation to you and your playing partner 

[me05501]

If you're able to spend any time on a real launch monitor setup it might be really good for you. It's helpful toward understanding the relationships between launch angle, spin, speed, trajectory etc. 

 

Here's a recent example. I'd been hitting my driver quite well for a month or so and based on the sim numbers I knew I got my best results when I was hitting up on the ball 4-5* with a path that was 4-5* in-to-out. This helps me get the most from my 92-93 MPH speed. 

 

Lately I've been working on hitting down on my fairway wood off the deck. All of a sudden my driver started acting funny. I was hitting very high, spinny pop-ups all of a sudden. Weird. 

Back on the LM the numbers told the story. I was starting to hit slightly down on the ball with driver and it was causing me to miss the middle and spin the ball way up. My fairway wood intent had crept into my driver setup. 

 

It would have taken a long time to figure this out on the range without any tech. Even one session on Trackman or similar can really help you learn to get the most from your driver swing. 

[me05501]

4 minutes ago, golfinbrad said:

There are several factors, but spin would be one.  You also have to look at launch, height and descent angles.  My guess Morikawa had a lower, flatter shot shaft which would lead to more roll vs Zalatoris had a higher flight that landed softer.  If does sound like a similar situation to you and your playing partner 

 

Yes, and very likely most of them were hitting very close to the center of the face. When we mortals try to add speed we start losing control of our strike. 

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

You're asking why faster swing speeds impart more spin given the same strike? 

 

Isn't that something we assume will happen? I don't know exactly the process but if you're compressing the ball more you get a different (often more substantial) effect on what comes out. This is the same reason higher SS players often require lower lofts on driver or why they can hit a low-lofted iron high in the air while slower players cannot. 

I don’t 100 % know what my question is.  If that’s possible.  I just know that it kind of causes me to balk on the whole “ more speed is better “ idea because I can’t unlock the “ keep spin down “ thing.   165-170ish mph seems to be the sweet spot.  More isn’t usable unless it’s also low-er spin. I’m not talking knuckle balls.  I’m saying below 3k.   Obviously some guys figure this out ( finau , Bryson , champ ) 

 

it used to bother me more when  I was in my 30s and a good bit faster   than I am now.  43 now and it’s getting  to the point of just a curiosity, because time is taking speed away anyhow , so it’s coming back to a low spin situation out of nature not skill.  If that makes sense? 

[mgoblue83]

No, I would not choose to reduce spin by lowering my speed. All that does is reduce potential advantages. 

 

Instead, to reduce spin and maximize potential I would work on:

Setup and ball position

Path and AoA

Consistency of strike (slightly above center)

Test different equipment (shafts, lofts, heads)

 

I can guarantee Morikawa is swinging driver darn near 100%. He's just learned how to maximize the speed he does have. 

 

Edited January 27 by mgoblue83

[amace04]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t 100 % know what my question is.  If that’s possible.  I just know that it kind of causes me to balk on the whole “ more speed is better “ idea because I can’t unlock the “ keep spin down “ thing.   165-170ish mph seems to be the sweet spot.  More isn’t usable unless it’s also low-er spin. I’m not talking knuckle balls.  I’m saying below 3k.   Obviously some guys figure this out ( finau , Bryson , champ ) 

 

it used to bother me more when  I was in my 30s and a good bit faster   than I am now.  43 now and it’s getting  to the point of just a curiosity, because time is taking speed away anyhow , so it’s coming back to a low spin situation out of nature not skill.  If that makes sense? 

 

Question:  If both end up the same distance, but one carries further, why wouldn't you want to carry it further?

 

If you need to carry a ditch, forced carry off the tee, etc, a high towering shot is a much better option than a low screamer that rolls out 50 yards.   

 

Then, if you can figure out how to keep spin down, that high towering drive that stops turns into a high towering drive that rolls 20 more yards.

[Sean124]

Carry is king to me with driver. If I carry it 300 and it plugs, and you carry it 280 and it rolls to 305, there are lots of holes out there where I have an advantage. 

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, amace04 said:

 

Question:  If both end up the same distance, but one carries further, why wouldn't you want to carry it further?

 

If you need to carry a ditch, forced carry off the tee, etc, a high towering shot is a much better option than a low screamer that rolls out 50 yards.   

 

Then, if you can figure out how to keep spin down, that high towering drive that stops turns into a high towering drive that rolls 20 more yards.

Well. The big swing doesn’t go away.  I can hit it at will.  The low ball stays out of trouble. It’s just a fairway finding machine.  The big swing alwasy has potential for the stuck underneath block.  And to be honest. It’s just a frustrating shot to hit knowing how much effort it is to hit it same.  It rockets off the face.  But then you walk to it and go “ oh well.  That didn’t go anywhere “.  

Edited January 27 by bladehunter

[Nard_S]

50 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

so.  I guess I wonder.  Is this just a product of spin ?  

Yes and descent angle of landing, which are products of approach to impact. I'm like your friend slower but sneaky long. MY kick & release is more effective. I care more about that then actual carry because if descent angle & spin is ideal, it makes up for MPH. Pro's in general optimize this better. It's a good part of reason why they look like they used steam roller on fairways.

[bladehunter]

17 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

No, I would not choose to reduce spin by lowering my speed. All that does is reduce potential advantages. 

 

Instead, to reduce spin and maximize potential I would work on:

Setup and ball position

Path and AoA

Consistency of strike (slightly above center)

Test different equipment (shafts, lofts, heads)

 

I can guarantee Morikawa is swinging driver darn near 100%. He's just learned how to maximize the speed he does have. 

 

Agree.  I’m not at all defending my swing.  I understand that it’s delivery.  But I don’t think alot of people have the blessing and curse of being able to ramp up speed from an optimal numbers swing I take to the course , up 15-18 mph to the “ full swing “ I describe that is usually spinning like a top.  And it’s not heel contact. It’s not low contact.  It’s usually showing relative optimal contact. I can just spin the crap out of the ball. 
 

I say this only to try to explain. On no planet am I comparing myself to anyone.  But Tony finau is an example of what I mean.  He is known to be playing with a bunt driver swing now.  Every now and then you’ll see him let the shaft out and mash one.  But it’s pretty rare. He can get over 190-200 mph ballspeed I believe. But he plays around 175.  180.  I’m similarly built.  As  I said above I’m getting older. So it’s becoming a moot point.  But that extra gear or longer swing isn’t something I speed sticked to get.  It’s always there. It’s just not usable.  Unless it’s an iron.  You can swing harder at an iron. And more spin will make it go farther higher and stop quick. 

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Yes and descent angle of landing, which are products of approach to impact. I'm like your friend slower but sneaky long. MY kick & release is more effective. I care more about that then actual carry because if descent angle & spin is ideal, it makes up for MPH. Pro's in general optimize this better. It's a good part of reason why they look like they used steam roller on fairways.

Yep. I guess it’s just ironic to me that ballspeed has become the new end all be all. But it’s useless in my opinion if the spin isn’t below 2650 or so.  

[b.mattay]

100% delivery characteristics unique to the player. I find if I step on one with the driver I tend to hit it with LOWER spin because my contact point moves up on the face compared a fairway finder where I'm hitting it pretty much middle vertically. 

[mgoblue83]

11 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree.  I’m not at all defending my swing.  I understand that it’s delivery.  But I don’t think alot of people have the blessing and curse of being able to ramp up speed from an optimal numbers swing I take to the course , up 15-18 mph to the “ full swing “ I describe that is usually spinning like a top.  And it’s not heel contact. It’s not low contact.  It’s usually showing relative optimal contact. I can just spin the crap out of the ball. 
 

I say this only to try to explain. On no planet am I comparing myself to anyone.  But Tony finau is an example of what I mean.  He is known to be playing with a bunt driver swing now.  Every now and then you’ll see him let the shaft out and mash one.  But it’s pretty rare. He can get over 190-200 mph ballspeed I believe. But he plays around 175.  180.  I’m similarly built.  As  I said above I’m getting older. So it’s becoming a moot point.  But that extra gear or longer swing isn’t something I speed sticked to get.  It’s always there. It’s just not usable.  Unless it’s an iron.  You can swing harder at an iron. And more spin will make it go farther higher and stop quick. 

 

 

You are correct but it's not the same thing.

 

1) Finau at 180mph is still more than enough for every golf course he plays. Your average player at 135mph is at a huge disadvantage vs 150mph. 

2) Irons need to be hit precise distances. There is minimal advantage for hitting irons farther (within reason) while there is a huge advantage for hitting driver farther. 

[MelloYello]

52 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t 100 % know what my question is.  If that’s possible.  I just know that it kind of causes me to balk on the whole “ more speed is better “ idea because I can’t unlock the “ keep spin down “ thing.   165-170ish mph seems to be the sweet spot.  More isn’t usable unless it’s also low-er spin. I’m not talking knuckle balls.  I’m saying below 3k.   Obviously some guys figure this out ( finau , Bryson , champ ) 

 

it used to bother me more when  I was in my 30s and a good bit faster   than I am now.  43 now and it’s getting  to the point of just a curiosity, because time is taking speed away anyhow , so it’s coming back to a low spin situation out of nature not skill.  If that makes sense? 

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with swinging faster. You can retain all the same efficiency across all swing speeds. The way the reduce spin with higher speeds would simply be to reduce loft a little bit.

 

I think the biggest downside most folks find (because most folks aren't swinging 120-mph) is that you lose a heck of a lot of forgiveness and playability with a driver when the loft gets too low.

 

Even if it's possible to gain 5-10 more yards of carry with a 9^o for instance versus a 10.5^o, it can be markedly less forgiving when your bad strikes don't have the requisite spin to hold their trajectory or when you simply can't achieve the necessary positive AoA every single swing.

 

I think this is a big reason we so many pro's with 10^o heads. They could surely squeeze a couple more yards out of something stronger but good golf isn't merely about your "potential."

 

It's funny because you look at the LPGA where it's not uncommon to see those flexible players reaching AoA as high as +4-5^o. Many of those players can actually play 8-9^o drivers comfortably. On the men's side, the AoA isn't as high and some players don't actually even have a + AoA at all. How high you launch the ball has a lot to do with what's best for you.  

Edited January 27 by MelloYello

[Nard_S]

17 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. I guess it’s just ironic to me that ballspeed has become the new end all be all. But it’s useless in my opinion if the spin isn’t below 2650 or so.  

Yeah agree. Everyone gets hung up on carry distance. I max carry, I tend to have spinny landings. Not ideal on dry fairways. Driver needs that wide flat spot on swing to impart proper descent angle and spin when the ball hits the ground. Tough thing to go max speed and maintain that patch of flat spot. So it's bit more complexn than "ball speed".

[amace04]

I guess the other thing to consider is your body ageing.

 

If you play a sawed off knuckler as your drive, what's going to happen when your swing speed drops?  I've got no idea what your speed is now, but presumably it's enough that a low spinner can still be playable.  What happens if your driver drops to 80? 70?  You're going to notice a much steeper decline in distance.   When you're slow, spin is your friend.  

As well, keeping your body swinging fast (as long as you're not injuring yourself) can keep your game going as  you age.  So many people, especially as you get older are capable of being faster, they just forgot how.  It's not always about strength and mobility, it's about teaching your muscles to be fast.  If you make the conscious decision now to be slow, you're going to continue to be slow.

[bladehunter]

43 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

 

You are correct but it's not the same thing.

 

1) Finau at 180mph is still more than enough for every golf course he plays. Your average player at 135mph is at a huge disadvantage vs 150mph. 

2) Irons need to be hit precise distances. There is minimal advantage for hitting irons farther (within reason) while there is a huge advantage for hitting driver farther. 

Not arguing. But asking.  For me. I see same. The bunt I’m talking about is 165  ish ballspeed. Probably more on good loose body days. And will roll forever.and is just so easy to hit.   Plenty to play any course around me.  It’s easily good for 275 -285 total average.    I’ve seen 182 this month on a good warm day where my back wasn’t locked .   I believe  it went 295 total. Only real use I saw in it was if I wanted to carry a dogleg.  
 

So lob wedge vs gap wedge in , Which is a wash in any real way you measure. 

[Krt22]

It's ballspeed, spin, and launch angle (and to a certain extent spin axis but that is harder to quantify). Dynamic loft, AoA, and gear effect will all play a role. All things being equal, more speed means more spin. Most of the higher speed guys seem happy to spin the ball more. Its funny you have guys here on WRX looking for around 2000rpm, when no one on tour is close to that and ~2600 is the average

 

Luckily the pga tour now records radar stats. From 2022, these are the avergaes

 

Morikawa-170.33, 10.56*, 104.5ft 2458rpm, 287.6 carry

 

Zalatoris-180.77, 10.62*, 118.5ft, 2622rpm, 300.1 carry

 

So yeah, Morikawa hits a slightly flatter and lowering spinning ball. He might have just got a more favorable bounce that put him right next to zalatoris or zalatoris might have got it a hair low and spun it up where as morikawa got it a hair high and dropped some spin

[bladehunter]

13 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

It's ballspeed, spin, and launch angle (and to a certain extent spin axis but that is harder to quantify). Dynamic loft, AoA, and gear effect will all play a role. All things being equal, more speed means more spin. Most of the higher speed guys seem happy to spin the ball more. Its funny you have guys here on WRX looking for around 2000rpm, when no one on tour is close to that and ~2600 is the average

 

Luckily the pga tour now records radar stats. From 2022, these are the avergaes

 

Morikawa-170.33, 10.56*, 104.5ft 2458rpm, 287.6 carry

 

Zalatoris-180.77, 10.62*, 118.5ft, 2622rpm, 300.1 carry

 

So yeah, Morikawa hits a slightly flatter and lowering spinning ball. He might have just got a more favorable bounce that put him right next to zalatoris or zalatoris might have got it a hair low and spun it up where as morikawa got it a hair high and dropped some spin

Good info. Thanks.  That brings it back on target.  I do not want this to be a me gripe session. Lol.  And I’m prone to that.  
 

I just wondered if anyone else saw this. And that’s hilarious that the spin number I said above , which I believe is my optimal and possible target on a full swing( 2650)  , is soooo close to what zalatoris is putting up.  I hover around 2850 for what it’s worth.  With a bad strike being 3100 or more so.  I’d kill to see 2500 regularly.  
 

but part of me just thinks “ why not just hit the flat knuckle ball and watch it roll.  

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

 

but part of me just thinks “ why not just hit the flat knuckle ball and watch it roll.  

If you can do it more consistently, do so. Everyone definitely has some point of diminishing returns once where you start sacrificing strike quality. I think there is a clear reason no one else has gone the full Bryson way. There are quite a few guys who have displayed they can crank it up like he does, but none take it to the course because the magnitude of the miss is greater than the magnitude of the gains

[ac6]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t 100 % know what my question is.  If that’s possible.  I just know that it kind of causes me to balk on the whole “ more speed is better “ idea because I can’t unlock the “ keep spin down “ thing.   165-170ish mph seems to be the sweet spot.  More isn’t usable unless it’s also low-er spin. I’m not talking knuckle balls.  I’m saying below 3k.   Obviously some guys figure this out ( finau , Bryson , champ ) 

 

it used to bother me more when  I was in my 30s and a good bit faster   than I am now.  43 now and it’s getting  to the point of just a curiosity, because time is taking speed away anyhow , so it’s coming back to a low spin situation out of nature not skill.  If that makes sense? 

 

To me this all just sounds like a driver fitting issue, assuming your AOA is the same for both your "bunt" swing and your all-out swing. Your driver is optimal for total distance under the conditions you generate with that slower swing. I'm sure there has to be an even lower-loft and stouter-shaft combo you haven't tried yet that could get you closer to optimal total distance for your hard swing. Of the guys you're talking about both Champ and Finau play the LST with loft cranked all the way down and already-stout shafts tipped 1.5-2". Bryson we know plays a 5* driver. 

Of course then you get into the question of, if you optimize for your hard swing then that smooth 165 mph/2000 rpm shot is now unusable as it's a 165 mph/1500 rpm ball that won't stay in the air or hold a line. But there has got to be a happy medium between there you can find. 

Edited January 27 by ac6

[amace04]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Not arguing. But asking.  For me. I see same. The bunt I’m talking about is 165  ish ballspeed. Probably more on good loose body days. And will roll forever.and is just so easy to hit.   Plenty to play any course around me.  It’s easily good for 275 -285 total average.    I’ve seen 182 this month on a good warm day where my back wasn’t locked .   I believe  it went 295 total. Only real use I saw in it was if I wanted to carry a dogleg.  
 

So lob wedge vs gap wedge in , Which is a wash in any real way you measure. 

If that's accurate, you swing WAY too fast to only be going 295.

 

182 ballspeed is elite pro speed.

 

If I'm you, I'm trying to figure out how to translate that speed into distance, because you're leaving so much meat on the bones there.

[Zitlow]

6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Bare with me. I’ll try to make this make sense.  
 

 

 

used to play with a guy who was a good 10 or more mph slower than me with driver , but he hit this knuckling fade that would roll right up to my ball. His swing was just a bunt.  I mean it was so slow looking.  One day a pro we both know had trackman outside on our range.   So we both begged a few swings on it just to see what the numbers  were . Sure enough. That day he was 11 mph in ballspeed slower than me.  But he was way lower spin ( this was 6 years ago so I’m off memory ) and carry.  But more roll.  And yet he hit it higher.  And the total distances for us both were very much what you’d call statistically identical.  
 

because of that guy I developed this bunt fade with the feeling of passive hands and a bit more launch.   And saw my total distance  go up , while my ballspeed and spin came way down.  I’ll have days where I revert to what feels like a full swing.  And it works.  I don’t hit it bad. But it just rarely goes farther. So I’ll again practice this baby feeling swing.  
 

 

so yesterday I’m watching the 2nd round at Torrey and I happened tp see the tracer on the 9th tee shot for morikowa and then for zalatorious .     The numbers are this.  For morikowa 170 ballspeed and 296 carry.    For zalatorious 180 ballspeed and 305 carry.  308 total for both shots. The balls stopped side by side.  
 

 

so.  I guess I wonder.  Is this just a product of spin ?  I regret I didn’t see the spin numbers for those two shots.  But I suspect that is it.  If so why is it that the faster we swing the more spin we impart ? Is this just a modern driver thing , where the little low spin bunt just goes ?  And what does this say about speed training ?  Is it useless if you don’t also somehow figure out how to keep spin same ?
 

 

this isn’t me  looking for swing advice.  It’s more just a thing that’s always bugged me because I’ve played with so many people who can hit this optimal numbers shot with driver. And for me on a full rip , the total rarely matches what the ballspeed says it should be. But if I gear  down it’s optimal numbers for the ballspeed. If that makes any sense ?  

 

Slow body, fast clubhead. Like a differential in a car or whirling a ball on a string around the hand. The ball has the most distance to travel so it has to go faster than the hand. 

[aussieb]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Good info. Thanks.  That brings it back on target.  I do not want this to be a me gripe session. Lol.  And I’m prone to that.  
 

I just wondered if anyone else saw this. And that’s hilarious that the spin number I said above , which I believe is my optimal and possible target on a full swing( 2650)  , is soooo close to what zalatoris is putting up.  I hover around 2850 for what it’s worth.  With a bad strike being 3100 or more so.  I’d kill to see 2500 regularly.  
 

but part of me just thinks “ why not just hit the flat knuckle ball and watch it roll.  

Seems like you've got a head that spins too much for your delivery.  Because if you're able to get to those ballspeeds, two things are definitely happening for you.  Contact point is good and swingspeed exists.  If I'm hitting the G425 Max, it's spinning 3K because that's what it's designed to do.  It's the wrong head, and I'll be looking at the STD or LST model.  2200-2400 spin is a target number for 12-14 launch.  If I hit a fade, I don't want it hitting above 2500, the same as my draw isn't dipping below 2K. Look for a head that has very little deviation in spin when testing as that's what a lot of mfg's are now doing with their designs.