USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Ahh, so like, courses that are typically those looked at for majors then?  (Southern Hills, Oakland Hills, Interlachen, etc.)

 

In these same 400 pages I have linked numerous examples of courses (linked articles), ranging anywhere from blue blood US Open venues to retirement community courses to daily fee and municipal courses, that have added length.  I have also taken pains that when I provide those links that a good deal of them specifically mention phrases such as "modern game" or detail as to why those running those courses decided to add length.

 

 

"That was the first of six U.S. Opens the club hosted, but none since 1996. Oakland Hills was the site of the 2004 Ryder Cup and Padraig Harrington’s victory at the 2008 PGA Championship, but it is one of the worst-kept secrets in golf that this latest renovation was green-lit with the objective of being awarded a seventh U.S. Open and with ambitions of becoming the USGA’s Midwest rota choice for years to come.

 

When Oakland Hills hosted the 2002 U.S. Amateur – won by Ricky Barnes in a flowery Hawaiian-print shirt that hangs in the clubhouse – technology advances to the driver and golf ball had given players the upper hand. Bill Haas shot a 29 in match play and members were none too happy to read headlines in the local papers proclaiming, “The Monster has lost it teeth.”

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/10/18/oakland-hills-gil-hanse-golf-course-restoration/

 

 

"The course is more prepared now for the modern era of golf to remain a viable championship host. It also more closely resembles Maxwell’s original design, from the bunkers to the greens and the hole layouts."

 

"The 7th has drastic changes. First, the green was moved back about 40 yards and to the right, with its right edge hugging a creek. There are also two bunkers left, placing a premium on a strong approach shot. 

 

The lengthening of the hole also means more decisions to be made off the tee. Now at roughly 440 yards, players can no longer hit a wood or long iron off the tee and have a shot iron or wedge into the green. Any shots on the left side of the fairway will be on an uneven lie, with the ball wanting to go toward the water on approach. 

Any tee shot to the right, though it will leave an easier approach shot, it could find trouble with the creek or trees.

 

The course will also play more than 300 yards longer than it did in 2007, coming it at nearly 7,500 yards." 

 https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/pga/2022/05/09/2022-pga-championship-southern-hills-course-changes-gil-hanse-restoration/9627727002/

 

 

"Another factor at play with Merion is the course's length: just 6,996 yards when all back tees are used, making it 680 yards shorter than 2021 host Torrey Pines played in the final round of this year's championship. Yes, Merion does boast three par 3s that can play more than 250 yards, but with a half-dozen par 4s that top out below 400 yards, it primarily used fearsome greens and slimmed-down fairways to defend par in 2013 when pre-tournament rains caused soggy conditions.

 

With its next turn hosting the U.S. Open nine years away, it is possible that the equipment the field uses could be a little less potent. With the USGA looking at its equipment regulations, it could turn out that the East Course will have a bit more teeth in 2030, much to the delight of those in favor of equipment rollbacks."

https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/u-s-open-merion-golf-club-2030-oakmont-anchor-site

 

 

If you don't believe it is happening, and why, where the most grueling men's professional golf tournaments are attempting to be held, then you have your head in the sand at this point.  

Again it happened at a very small percentage of courses and it’s not something that’s continuing to happen and it’s not being forced on any course they are making choices just like the ones you suggest could choose to ad tee boxes that are shorter. It’s all a choice 

[Oostiesalbacore]

1 hour ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

There is no upper restriction on the size of the ball. Obviously with the weight limit it ends up not making sense for it to be larger, not to mention it adds wind resistance. 

Maybe remove the weight limit and allow a range of weights. 

[smashdn]

9 minutes ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

Maybe remove the weight limit and allow a range of weights. 

 

You used to could buy golf balls that were shaped like footballs.  They would curve a great deal.  How you teed them up and struck them impacted which direction and how much curve you got.

 

Maybe we should just go with those.

 

(Putting would be a trip.)

[gvogel]

2 hours ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

Instead of a roll back, allow different sized balls to be played as long as they’re within some range. Some players will use smaller ones for spinnier shots and some will use larger ones for more carry. Could be interesting to see how different strategies would play out. Do you want a spinnier ball or a longer ball at Augusta? Guess we could find out in real time. Maybe at a US Open with penal rough, it’s better to play a big ball so you can get it out easier but maybe the small ball is better so you can actually stop it on the green from the rough. Be cool to see that play out. 
 

Also, we would get hilarious clips of players talking about loving the big balls or how maybe their balls were too big that week. 

Way to open up Pandora's box on ball size.

[Pnwpingi210]

24 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Way to open up Pandora's box on ball size.

I suspect that post was a bit of satire. 
 

edit: I suspect the post about bigger or smaller balls was satire.

Edited May 2 by Pnwpingi210

[klebs01]

Just thought I’d add that my club added a new set of back tees this year adding a couple hundred yards. Had to put the tee for 10 up by the practice green. This makes it 3 for 3 in clubs that have had to add tees to stay relevant. Seems to happen as the silent generation dies off and the boomers can’t fill all the slots. The millennials coming in grew up with tiger and tend to be longer good players. Short classic courses that result in wedges on every hole aren’t attractive. 

[smashdn]

12 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

Just thought I’d add that my club added a new set of back tees this year adding a couple hundred yards. Had to put the tee for 10 up by the practice green. This makes it 3 for 3 in clubs that have had to add tees to stay relevant. Seems to happen as the silent generation dies off and the boomers can’t fill all the slots. The millennials coming in grew up with tiger and tend to be longer good players. Short classic courses that result in wedges on every hole aren’t attractive. 

 

I am assuming you then belong to an ultra-elite club with a vanity problem?

[klebs01]

Just now, smashdn said:

 

I am assuming you then belong to an ultra-elite club with a vanity problem?

Nope. Just a normal club trying to stay relevant for the members. 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Ahh, so like, courses that are typically those looked at for majors then?  (Southern Hills, Oakland Hills, Interlachen, etc.)

 

In these same 400 pages I have linked numerous examples of courses (linked articles), ranging anywhere from blue blood US Open venues to retirement community courses to daily fee and municipal courses, that have added length.  I have also taken pains that when I provide those links that a good deal of them specifically mention phrases such as "modern game" or detail as to why those running those courses decided to add length.

 

 

"That was the first of six U.S. Opens the club hosted, but none since 1996. Oakland Hills was the site of the 2004 Ryder Cup and Padraig Harrington’s victory at the 2008 PGA Championship, but it is one of the worst-kept secrets in golf that this latest renovation was green-lit with the objective of being awarded a seventh U.S. Open and with ambitions of becoming the USGA’s Midwest rota choice for years to come.

 

When Oakland Hills hosted the 2002 U.S. Amateur – won by Ricky Barnes in a flowery Hawaiian-print shirt that hangs in the clubhouse – technology advances to the driver and golf ball had given players the upper hand. Bill Haas shot a 29 in match play and members were none too happy to read headlines in the local papers proclaiming, “The Monster has lost it teeth.”

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/10/18/oakland-hills-gil-hanse-golf-course-restoration/

 

 

"The course is more prepared now for the modern era of golf to remain a viable championship host. It also more closely resembles Maxwell’s original design, from the bunkers to the greens and the hole layouts."

 

"The 7th has drastic changes. First, the green was moved back about 40 yards and to the right, with its right edge hugging a creek. There are also two bunkers left, placing a premium on a strong approach shot. 

 

The lengthening of the hole also means more decisions to be made off the tee. Now at roughly 440 yards, players can no longer hit a wood or long iron off the tee and have a shot iron or wedge into the green. Any shots on the left side of the fairway will be on an uneven lie, with the ball wanting to go toward the water on approach. 

Any tee shot to the right, though it will leave an easier approach shot, it could find trouble with the creek or trees.

 

The course will also play more than 300 yards longer than it did in 2007, coming it at nearly 7,500 yards." 

 https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/pga/2022/05/09/2022-pga-championship-southern-hills-course-changes-gil-hanse-restoration/9627727002/

 

 

"Another factor at play with Merion is the course's length: just 6,996 yards when all back tees are used, making it 680 yards shorter than 2021 host Torrey Pines played in the final round of this year's championship. Yes, Merion does boast three par 3s that can play more than 250 yards, but with a half-dozen par 4s that top out below 400 yards, it primarily used fearsome greens and slimmed-down fairways to defend par in 2013 when pre-tournament rains caused soggy conditions.

 

With its next turn hosting the U.S. Open nine years away, it is possible that the equipment the field uses could be a little less potent. With the USGA looking at its equipment regulations, it could turn out that the East Course will have a bit more teeth in 2030, much to the delight of those in favor of equipment rollbacks."

https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/u-s-open-merion-golf-club-2030-oakmont-anchor-site

 

 

If you don't believe it is happening, and why, where the most grueling men's professional golf tournaments are attempting to be held, then you have your head in the sand at this point.  

You’re correct of course….you've totally convinced me.

 

The rollback is to placate what? A dozen courses?  That’s about how many have “absolutely had to” add distance to host majors and have enough of the blue blood clout to host said majors.

 

So yeah, absolutely the rest of us should pay for that. Makes sense now.🤣

[Titleist99]

8 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

you don’t know anywhere near to you that you play that HASNT added length? Is that what you are saying??

I'm in the proximity of ten (10) golf courses  (two championship) and none have lengthened their course.

 

I might add that at most of the courses, the black tees are barren and most of the golfers playing the back tees, shouldn't.

 

Playing the back tees and scoring 90 is no reason to lengthen a course. IMO

[klebs01]

21 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

you don’t know anywhere near to you that you play that HASNT added length? Is that what you are saying??

I don’t know any, other than executive courses, that haven’t around me. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

19 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Sorry for the tangent. Please accept my apology but the Majors has nothing to do with the PGAT. The Tour love birdie fest as long as there's a shootout and drama and excitement at the end. Sure they have some tougher setups but mostly birdie fest. The only tour that's worse than the PGAT is the KFT.

 

The LPGA players are complaining that their setups are too hard and should be relaxed so the par fives can be reached in two and the par fours can be driven and not approached with fairway woods.

 

Again, sorry for my foolishness.

 

The Tour's flagship event plays to an over par field average year after year. I realize it's a waste of time to even ask by why do you imagine they go for that?

 

The LPGA winner is typically in the teens or low 20s so I don't really know what to say about setup issues...they could make it -30 and I doubt you would see any more viewers if that's what people think. This line of thinking is just grasping at straws.

Edited May 2 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Shilgy]

36 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

you don’t know anywhere near to you that you play that HASNT added length? Is that what you are saying??

Did you read it?  I said nothing of the sort.  He was referring to those poor clubs with major hosting expectations.  None of them had to…they chose to.  Mostly because they have expectations on how their course should be played rather than letting it play out.

 

A good example is Augusta National.  Much of their tinkering has eliminated the concepts of the original design.  Yes, they have made it harder to score well.  But at the expense of no longer being what was intended.  Which, funny enough,  is what so many of you defend when decrying lengthening.

[Shilgy]

16 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

The Tour's flagship event plays to an over par field average year after year. I realize it's a waste of time to even ask by why do you imagine they go for that?

 

The LPGA winner is typically in the teens or low 20s so I don't really know what to say about setup issues...they could make it -30 and I doubt you would see any more viewers if that's what people think. This line of thinking is just grasping at straws.

So you want to lengthen to prevent your so called birdie fests?  You guys confuse the heck out of me.  One says to prevent scoring…the next says score has nothing to do with it…..the next mumbles something about shot values but refuses to acknowledge the difference in clubs used today. And no not referring to anything but club numbering.  There are shots being hit with less than say 35° of loft but because it might have a 7 or even 8 on the bottom instead of 3 or 4 the sky is falling.

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

nobody would watch Joe sausage winning the masters at 6800 yards. They know it. We know it. YOU know it 

Nope, but they sure as heck would watch the tour pros play it. And they have been longer than 6800 for almost 75 years.  
 

Certainly makes one order why they were adding length before the evil equipment came into being.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

So you want to lengthen to prevent your so called birdie fests?  You guys confuse the heck out of me.  One says to prevent scoring…the next says score has nothing to do with it…..the next mumbles something about shot values but refuses to acknowledge the difference in clubs used today. And no not referring to anything but club numbering.  There are shots being hit with less than say 35° of loft but because it might have a 7 or even 8 on the bottom instead of 3 or 4 the sky is falling.

 

Where did I say that? The discussion was about ratings on TV, I was simply posing questions (which were just dodged over and over) about which tournaments get the better ratings and how they were typically set up.

Edited May 2 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Where did I say that? 

What I was referring to was most of the rollback crowd claims score doesn’t matter.  That that is not why they want to rollback(which really is a form of lengthening).  Your post claimed, correctly., that the big events  most often have higher scoring. In the US yes….in the Open they don’t seem to care as much as the weather determines score.  But yes, the best courses are usually more difficult.  And they are set up to be more difficult than daily play as well.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

You’re correct of course….you've totally convinced me.

 

The rollback is to placate what? A dozen courses?  That’s about how many have “absolutely had to” add distance to host majors and have enough of the blue blood clout to host said majors.

 

So yeah, absolutely the rest of us should pay for that. Makes sense now.🤣

 

Seems not.  See quote below. 

 

Or had you all prefer I keep searching and linking all of these articles to all of these instances where courses have added length?  The issue begins to become, you know once you have exhausted the "dozen blue blood, ultra elite courses," they often don't make the news with what they are doing.  I mean, my local muni adding back tee boxes doesn't result in Golf News or Golf Week or Golf Pass writing in article about it.

 

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

Nope. Just a normal club trying to stay relevant for the members. 

 

Mine too.  I have said before we added "black" tees at the very back of the farthest back tee boxes and added tee boxes here and there where we could in the last five years to stretch it as far as can be with a landlocked property.  But the national golf news just didn't see fit to pick up the story.

 

---

But, so maybe we can lay this "blue bloods" and "maybe dozens" business to bed, here is a muni:

 

"The Ross course has six tee boxes at varying distances in order to create an enjoyable experience for all players of all abilities, with the total length now ranging from 4,583 to 6,714 yards. The ‘Ross’ tees allow golfers to play the par-71 course as the original architect planned, at a total length of 6,240 yards. "

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/sarasotas-bobby-jones-club-reopens-after-renovation

 

While we are debunking myths, how about the "they don't add forward tees" one too?

 

"“By adding forward tee distances, we’re welcoming a wider range of golfers at different skill levels,” said Sue Martin, parks and recreation team member. “Traditionally, red tees have been the closest to a hole, then white and blue tees farther away. Golf is evolving. With three additional tee distances, more options are available for golfers at Bobby Jones to have fun and add variety to their game, whether they’re a novice or lifelong player.” 

 

This NCAA Championship venue that is a resort course (are resort courses blue bloods?) currently tips out at 6996 par 72 and is being stretched to 7500.

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/lacostaresortspatour/detailedscorecard.htm

https://www.ncaa.com/news/golf-men/article/2023-01-24/omni-la-costa-resort-spa-begins-renovation-its-famed-champions-course

 

[smashdn]

11 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

That that is not why they want to rollback(which really is a form of lengthening).  

 

The result on score might be the same as lengthening, but the "how you got there," is the antithesis of lengthening.  Adding length to a course is very costly.  Changing a $4 piece of equipment that most of us are tickled to only have to use one of through a round is peanuts in comparison.

[Oostiesalbacore]

Instead of a ball roll back, why not just make all the players use the same make and model of club?
 

I mean, it’s not just the ball that’s the problem when you have driver heads as big as a melon. Roll the clubs back so every player only uses Ping Eye 2’s, trusty rustys, and tiny drivers. Bryson would have a hard time getting 205 mph ball speed with a DCI Starship. Maybe Rory would appreciate the nice forgiving offset of the Pings. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[TLUBulldogGolf]

27 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

What I was referring to was most of the rollback crowd claims score doesn’t matter.  That that is not why they want to rollback(which really is a form of lengthening).  Your post claimed, correctly., that the big events  most often have higher scoring. In the US yes….in the Open they don’t seem to care as much as the weather determines score.  But yes, the best courses are usually more difficult.  And they are set up to be more difficult than daily play as well.

 

Most competitive events at nearly every level are set up tougher than daily play.

 

Score isn't the motivator for me, but they are almost inextricably linked via strokes gained. If I were to run through a hole by hole of what the players would do to Augusta for example if it was at it's old length (6900ish), my issues would not revolve around score even though I would expect the scoring to be much lower. 

Edited May 2 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Chunkitgood]

Score is a by-result of process.  It’s the process that matters.   In the context of modern golf a process that requires players to hit a larger number of longer irons in addition to “driver/wedge” is a process better designed to identify a better all around game.  The only time it happens now is when they try for two on par fives.  When they have to do it on par fours, the score miraculously goes up.

[Simpsonia]

7 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Ahh, so like, courses that are typically those looked at for majors then?  (Southern Hills, Oakland Hills, Interlachen, etc.)

 

In these same 400 pages I have linked numerous examples of courses (linked articles), ranging anywhere from blue blood US Open venues to retirement community courses to daily fee and municipal courses, that have added length.  I have also taken pains that when I provide those links that a good deal of them specifically mention phrases such as "modern game" or detail as to why those running those courses decided to add length.

 

 

"That was the first of six U.S. Opens the club hosted, but none since 1996. Oakland Hills was the site of the 2004 Ryder Cup and Padraig Harrington’s victory at the 2008 PGA Championship, but it is one of the worst-kept secrets in golf that this latest renovation was green-lit with the objective of being awarded a seventh U.S. Open and with ambitions of becoming the USGA’s Midwest rota choice for years to come.

 

When Oakland Hills hosted the 2002 U.S. Amateur – won by Ricky Barnes in a flowery Hawaiian-print shirt that hangs in the clubhouse – technology advances to the driver and golf ball had given players the upper hand. Bill Haas shot a 29 in match play and members were none too happy to read headlines in the local papers proclaiming, “The Monster has lost it teeth.”

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/10/18/oakland-hills-gil-hanse-golf-course-restoration/

 

 

"The course is more prepared now for the modern era of golf to remain a viable championship host. It also more closely resembles Maxwell’s original design, from the bunkers to the greens and the hole layouts."

 

"The 7th has drastic changes. First, the green was moved back about 40 yards and to the right, with its right edge hugging a creek. There are also two bunkers left, placing a premium on a strong approach shot. 

 

The lengthening of the hole also means more decisions to be made off the tee. Now at roughly 440 yards, players can no longer hit a wood or long iron off the tee and have a shot iron or wedge into the green. Any shots on the left side of the fairway will be on an uneven lie, with the ball wanting to go toward the water on approach. 

Any tee shot to the right, though it will leave an easier approach shot, it could find trouble with the creek or trees.

 

The course will also play more than 300 yards longer than it did in 2007, coming it at nearly 7,500 yards." 

 https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/pga/2022/05/09/2022-pga-championship-southern-hills-course-changes-gil-hanse-restoration/9627727002/

 

 

"Another factor at play with Merion is the course's length: just 6,996 yards when all back tees are used, making it 680 yards shorter than 2021 host Torrey Pines played in the final round of this year's championship. Yes, Merion does boast three par 3s that can play more than 250 yards, but with a half-dozen par 4s that top out below 400 yards, it primarily used fearsome greens and slimmed-down fairways to defend par in 2013 when pre-tournament rains caused soggy conditions.

 

With its next turn hosting the U.S. Open nine years away, it is possible that the equipment the field uses could be a little less potent. With the USGA looking at its equipment regulations, it could turn out that the East Course will have a bit more teeth in 2030, much to the delight of those in favor of equipment rollbacks."

https://www.golfpass.com/travel-advisor/articles/u-s-open-merion-golf-club-2030-oakmont-anchor-site

 

 

If you don't believe it is happening, and why, where the most grueling men's professional golf tournaments are attempting to be held, then you have your head in the sand at this point.  

 

 

From your own article:

Quote

“I don’t think the litmus test for the USGA or PGA is going to be can it still challenge the best players in the world? If you get the greens firm and rolling and the rough growing, you can host any championship out here. The thing that will be the most interest to them will be the infrastructure changes and the ability to host a championship with a more predictable outcome with relation to conditions,” Hanse mused. “They want to be able to understand how much control do they have over the setup? The infrastructure, the precision air system, the drainage, the bunker liner system, all the things we’ve done will yield a much more predictable outcome if we have a bad weather week.”

 

Edited May 2 by Simpsonia

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

I'm in the proximity of ten (10) golf courses  (two championship) and none have lengthened their course.

 

I might add that at most of the courses, the black tees are barren and most of the golfers playing the back tees, shouldn't.

 

Playing the back tees and scoring 90 is no reason to lengthen a course. IMO

I live near several courses the USGA uses for open qualifying as well as some

that have hosted events like the bmw championship, US Open and other tour events over the years. None have added distance 

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

And answer came there none 

 

draw your own conclusions 

Well, I will tell you this:

 

I live in an area that is within 20 miles of sixty-seven (67) golf courses.

 

23 pubic

25 municipals

19 private

1 private shut down due to financial problems but sold and made into an event center.

 

And none, Zero has lengthened their course due to being too short or any other manufactured reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Titleist99]

10 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

I live near several courses the USGA uses for open qualifying as well as some

that have hosted events like the bmw championship, US Open and other tour events over the years. None have added distance 

I showed a broader example of " the big lie"  .......LOL!

[klebs01]

21 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Well, I will tell you this:

 

I live in an area that is within 20 miles of sixty-seven (67) golf courses.

 

23 pubic

25 municipals

19 private

1 private shut down due to financial problems but sold and made into an event center.

 

And none, Zero has lengthened their course due to being too short or any other manufactured reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless these courses were all built after 1995 or 2000, I don’t believe this at all. 

[North Butte]

Apparently, every time some rich guy I’ve never met modifies a course I’ll never play that becomes one additional reason I should be playing a ball that doesn’t go as far. Do I have that right?

[Titleist99]

27 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

Btw I live within a mile of 500 courses that have all shortened their courses to 4500 yards. But can’t tell you where..

I'm spouting facts

You're spouting nonsense.

 

I won't be engaging. 🙂

[Ashley Schaeffer]

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Score is a by-result of process.  It’s the process that matters.   In the context of modern golf a process that requires players to hit a larger number of longer irons in addition to “driver/wedge” is a process better designed to identify a better all around game.  The only time it happens now is when they try for two on par fives.  When they have to do it on par fours, the score miraculously goes up.

Make the par fives par fours.  Zero dollars.