USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[Oostiesalbacore]

5 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

Because we can all agree that hitting it long and straight isn't a real "skill"

When I learned about how pros just get fitted for a specific shot shape precisely so they can swing as hard they can with little penalty for a mishit I had a change of heart about it. 
 

Bryson’s bomb and gouge 2020 at wing foot was only possible because he didn’t have any poison ivy to worry about. Sure you’ll probably get relief from the bush, but you still have to get close enough to identify it and you have to retrieve it so have fun! Or you could just pull a driving iron and keep it away from the ivy and use your 7 iron once in a while. 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Another idea that came to mind:  Rollback all pro equipment to 1975-spec, and then only allow 5 to 7 players to do their normal workouts/practice routines.  Everyone else has to be the same height/weight/body fat % as the average pro in 1975.  They can only practice and work out as much as Roger Maltbie did.  This way, it won't be "everybody can do it so it's not special".  We can re-create the professional game the way we want to see it.  We'll play cards and watch the back nine down at the malt shop on Mr. Hooper's new color RCA.  

Edited May 3 by Ashley Schaeffer

[Oostiesalbacore]

The PGA tour offers healthcare so make the players start smoking. There’s too much athleticism out there so mandatory bong hits on the practice green, forced stogies, and a few belts of Wild Turkey 101 on every hole will bring the driving distance down and provide a better product for the casual fan. 
 

Are you going to look me in the eye and tell me you don’t want to see Hatton on a drunken rampage? We have to get these ratings up so I can’t think of a single reason not to watch the LIV PGA rivalry meet my good friend Johnny Walker. 

[Oostiesalbacore]

The problem is ball speeds so put a cop in the fairway with a radar gun to write speeding tickets. 
 

problem solved 

[betarhoalphadelta]

56 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Addressing only said subset is a non-starter but you already knew that.

 

Of course. I know why bifurcation was a non-starter. 

 

That said, I also reject the premise that pro golf is somehow irrevocably broken unless we roll back the ball. 

 

I mean, I saw Rory smack one last weekend and he was all:

 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

6 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Of course. I know why bifurcation was a non-starter. 

 

That said, I also reject the premise that pro golf is somehow irrevocably broken unless we roll back the ball. 

 

I mean, I saw Rory smack one last weekend and he was all:

 

The answer is NO.  Until I see him feather a 5i from 165 into a green rolling at 7, he's not a real shotmaker.  

[Titleist99]

13 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Of course. I know why bifurcation was a non-starter. 

 

That said, I also reject the premise that pro golf is somehow irrevocably broken unless we roll back the ball. 

 

I mean, I saw Rory smack one last weekend and he was all:

 

That kind of vulgar outburst has no place in the USGA/RA vision for the future of golf.🤣

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

That kind of vulgar outburst has no place in the USGA/RA vision for the future of golf.🤣

 

Yes. We know the demands of etiquette:

 

[maamold]

12 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

I'll accept your list of all the courses in your area that have purchased land, become obsolete, or can't put on a tournament because they're too short. (a claim by RBs)

 

Again, 67 golf courses within a 20 mile radius of my location and zero has bought any land or has not been able to conduct tournaments because golfers are hitting the golf ball too far.

 

Oh, please tell me where you live. The internet wants to know. 😂

Two Muni courses near me have added length (either we tee's or green renovations) within the last 10 years
Glendoveer, Rose City.

Local Country club just added shorter tee's and added length. And "with 15 [bunkers] being repositioned to affect play."  and "Portland Golf Club is in discussions to host future Oregon Golf Association and USGA championships on the renovated layout, which now stretches to 7,100 yards."

https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/news/portland-golf-club-oregon-renovation-greens/

Now tell us where you are...

[Golferpaul]

21 hours ago, klebs01 said:

A lot of courses are struggling to get to 6800 or are land locked and can’t even get to that yardage. 

I play on lots of courses all over the country every year and I can't recall ever playing one with tips below 6800.

[klebs01]

5 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I play on lots of courses all over the country every year and I can't recall ever playing one with tips below 6800.

they are all over. When most courses around me were built, they tipped out in the 6200-6400 range. Everything over that has been added. Some have gotten over 6800. A ton haven’t. 

Edited May 4 by klebs01

[Pnwpingi210]

5 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I play on lots of courses all over the country every year and I can't recall ever playing one with tips below 6800.

Come to the Pacific Northwest.  You will find many public 18 hole par 71-72 courses that tip out less than 6800.  
 

sure there are  gamble sands, chambers bay, wine valley, bend Oregon courses at 3600ft …  along with some private courses I’m sure but most aren’t 6800+

 

not sure what this proves anyway.

Edited May 4 by Pnwpingi210

[bekgolf]

6 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Come to the Pacific Northwest.  You will find many public 18 hole par 71-72 courses that tip out less than 6800.  
 

sure there are  gamble sands, chambers bay, wine valley, bend Oregon courses at 3600ft …  along with some private courses I’m sure but most aren’t 6800+

 

not sure what this proves anyway.

 

I was going to post something similar.  6800 is about as long as it gets for most public courses I know of in the Puget Sound region with some not making it past 6000.  They are very busy even though they are short by WRX standards.  I wonder how much difference the sea level elevation and cool temps make?

 

The Home Course in DuPont Washington has "Dynamite" tees that are about 7400 and it's a rarity. 

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

I was going to post something similar.  6800 is about as long as it gets for most public courses I know of in the Puget Sound region with some not making it past 6000.  They are very busy even though they are short by WRX standards.  I wonder how much difference the sea level elevation and cool temps make?

 

The Home Course in DuPont Washington has "Dynamite" tees that are about 7400 and it's a rarity. 

The conditions make a big difference.  Cooler temps, firm fairways for 8 weeks of the year, sea level.  6800 here plays longer than 7200 in Palm spring for most(barring the 7200 course having anything above a 240 forced carry)

[Chunkitgood]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:47 AM, Golferpaul said:

I play on lots of courses all over the country every year and I can't recall ever playing one with tips below 6800.

This rather proves the point of the proposed change.  By choosing to play solely on longer courses, you have proven there is demand for longer courses.

[Ty_Webb]

On 5/4/2024 at 4:26 PM, Pnwpingi210 said:

Come to the Pacific Northwest.  You will find many public 18 hole par 71-72 courses that tip out less than 6800.  
 

sure there are  gamble sands, chambers bay, wine valley, bend Oregon courses at 3600ft …  along with some private courses I’m sure but most aren’t 6800+

 

not sure what this proves anyway.

 

Near me is Bethpage. They have five courses. Two of them are over 6800 from the tips. Red and Black. The others are not. Green and Yellow are about 6,300. Blue about 6,600. All of them are pretty much sold out at all times. The two longest ones - Red is 7,092 from the tips and Black is 7,468. Of the times I have played those courses, which is probably about 50-75 each, I have never seen the tees at the back on 9 holes on Black and 5 holes on Red. Not a single time and that's including playing decent standard tournaments on them. On Black, I've never seen it tipped out on 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, and 17. Except in PGA Tour events/majors. On Red, I've never seen the back tee in play on 10, 11, 15, 16, and 18. What does that tell you?

[Titleist99]

9 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Near me is Bethpage. They have five courses. Two of them are over 6800 from the tips. Red and Black. The others are not. Green and Yellow are about 6,300. Blue about 6,600. All of them are pretty much sold out at all times. The two longest ones - Red is 7,092 from the tips and Black is 7,468. Of the times I have played those courses, which is probably about 50-75 each, I have never seen the tees at the back on 9 holes on Black and 5 holes on Red. Not a single time and that's including playing decent standard tournaments on them. On Black, I've never seen it tipped out on 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, and 17. Except in PGA Tour events/majors. On Red, I've never seen the back tee in play on 10, 11, 15, 16, and 18. What does that tell you?

No one in their right mind. 🤣 believe that golf courses all over the nation are buying up extra land, putting in new tees and courses are becoming obsolete because 90 PGAT touring Pros hit their Tee ball 300 yards.

 

Most course, the black tees are barren and many of the ones using them shouldn't....

[Ty_Webb]

9 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Most course, the black tees are barren and many of the ones using them shouldn't....

 

Yep - take Marine Park in Brooklyn. That's 6,866 from the back tees. I used to play that relatively often during the late winter/early spring time. If the forecast wasn't too bad, me and a couple of guys would grab a tee time and head down there. When it's 38*, cloudy and windy, and there's been a 2 hour frost delay, you see the groups of people lining up waiting to play the back tees when they can't hit it more than about 180 on the fly. It takes 5+ hours to play. You might think when it's that cold, that everyone would be playing as quick as they can, but no. Those people aren't going to suddenly decide that they hit it 5 yards shorter, so they're going to move up a tee. They're going to continue playing the back tees and instead of 5:15, it's going to be 5:25. But we're supposed to be happy about this, because now the members at some ultra private course don't need to be embarrassed by someone shooting 64 round their course.

[Pnwpingi210]

43 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Near me is Bethpage. They have five courses. Two of them are over 6800 from the tips. Red and Black. The others are not. Green and Yellow are about 6,300. Blue about 6,600. All of them are pretty much sold out at all times. The two longest ones - Red is 7,092 from the tips and Black is 7,468. Of the times I have played those courses, which is probably about 50-75 each, I have never seen the tees at the back on 9 holes on Black and 5 holes on Red. Not a single time and that's including playing decent standard tournaments on them. On Black, I've never seen it tipped out on 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, and 17. Except in PGA Tour events/majors. On Red, I've never seen the back tee in play on 10, 11, 15, 16, and 18. What does that tell you?

Cool.  I probably wouldn’t tip out Bethpage black (or any of the other 4 if they are similarly designed) either given you example is considered one of the most difficult courses you can play in the US.  
 

I don’t know what this proves or disproves other than course can be designed to play very difficult under, or in this case slightly over 7k yards?
 

 It certainly doesn’t mean all course in the us US are designed to play as difficult as The Bethpage 5some.

[Titleist99]

9 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Yep - take Marine Park in Brooklyn. That's 6,866 from the back tees. I used to play that relatively often during the late winter/early spring time. If the forecast wasn't too bad, me and a couple of guys would grab a tee time and head down there. When it's 38*, cloudy and windy, and there's been a 2 hour frost delay, you see the groups of people lining up waiting to play the back tees when they can't hit it more than about 180 on the fly. It takes 5+ hours to play. You might think when it's that cold, that everyone would be playing as quick as they can, but no. Those people aren't going to suddenly decide that they hit it 5 yards shorter, so they're going to move up a tee. They're going to continue playing the back tees and instead of 5:15, it's going to be 5:25. But we're supposed to be happy about this, because now the members at some ultra private course don't need to be embarrassed by someone shooting 64 round their course.

"Those people aren't going to suddenly decide that they hit it 5 yards shorter, so they're going to move up a tee. They're going to continue playing the back tees and instead of 5:15, it's going to be 5:25. But we're supposed to be happy about this, because now the members at some ultra private course don't need to be embarrassed by someone shooting 64 round their course."

 

100%. The people who think the average male golfer is just going to move up a tee is naive at best. Ego will not allow the average male golfer to move to the lady's tee box. IMO

[MrDC]

I live near Bethpage as well and it's a typical LI course, which is difficult not just because of length but trees, every FW is lined left and right with woods, and the greens are often surrounded by trees, if you miss bad you're not scrambling, you're dropping and taking a penalty. That would be a great way to challenge the distance with the pros but they can't do that much on the Tour because there would be nowhere for the fans to stand, and setup seats to watch, that's why we see more open courses and greens with collection areas on Tour, it provides space for fans to walk around and booths to sell stuff like food and drinks.

Edited May 6 by MrDC

[smashdn]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:51 PM, Oostiesalbacore said:

Plant more tall trees and bushes along the fairways so attempting the long ball into the rough pitch on strategy is less viable.

 

You say this...

 

On 5/3/2024 at 1:51 PM, Oostiesalbacore said:

To me, nerfing the ball is just an unimaginative way to go about the problem. 

 

...then this?

 

Of course it is unimaginative, it is the most elegant solution staring us right in the face.

[smashdn]

Double post, slow software got me.

Edited May 6 by smashdn

[smashdn]

12 minutes ago, MrDC said:

I live near Bethpage as well and it's a typical LI course, which is difficult not just because of length but trees, every FW is lined left and right with woods, and the greens are often surrounded by trees, if you miss bad you're not scrambling, you're dropping and taking a penalty. That would be a great way to challenge the distance with the pros but they can't do that much on the Tour because there would be nowhere for the fans to stand, and setup seats to watch, that's why we see more open courses and greens with collection areas on Tour, it provides space for fans to walk around and booths to sell stuff like food and drinks.

 

It also keeps the course playable the other 50 weeks of the year.

[smashdn]

On 5/3/2024 at 10:06 AM, Barnacle said:

You think anyone who catches this thread randomly is going to go back 400 pages and specifically look for your posts about course lengthening. To be honest I don’t know why any muni course would bother lengthening a course these days. Present wrxers excluded the average golfer hits like a 220 yard drive. Most muni’s maybe see 4-5 groups a day with golfers who can hit it over 300 yards. 

 

On 5/3/2024 at 10:08 AM, smashdn said:

Go back and read the thread and you would find those answers too.

 

Don't think of it in terms of how many golfers cause the impact, think of it in terms of how many golfers are impacted.

 

On 5/3/2024 at 2:22 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

Exactly.

 

Not surprisingly you missed the point, again.

 

On 5/3/2024 at 2:22 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

A tiny, tiny subset of golfers supposedly hits the ball "too far", so the ruling bodies have determined that every golfer must now be impacted negatively by a rollback. 

 

These 4-5 groups (16-20 golfers) spread out on this muni are impacting other golfers on the course.  They are behind one of these groups who is waiting for the short par fours and the par fives' greens to clear.  They might be getting hit into out in the fairway.  If these 4-5 groups have the distance but not the accuracy, they are waiting for them to hunt their ball in the rough or waiting for them to reload on the tee.

 

If they are a conscientious group that can drive it a long way, they may send a cart up to see if the coast is clear.  Now you are waiting for them to drive back to the tee box.

 

A longer in length game takes longer to play, for everyone.  Building courses that are 7500+ yards take longer to play even when played at shorter distances because of the distances between greens and tees.  That take more water, fertilizer, and other chemicals.  More length of irrigation system to run and further to pump the water.  More cost to maintain and more cost back to the golfer to pay. 

[oughtaquit]

I have a question about the effect of ball and/or club improvements on recreational players. I am a bad athlete and could never hit very far, but when I started playing in 1986 (at age 20), I don’t remember the disparity with my peers being as large as it is now. Have the equipment improvements advantaged better players more than they have worse players?  Or have I simply deteriorated at a faster rate 😳?  (The fact that I’ve spent my entire working life behind a desk might support the latter.) 

[gvogel]

15 minutes ago, oughtaquit said:

I have a question about the effect of ball and/or club improvements on recreational players. I am a bad athlete and could never hit very far, but when I started playing in 1986 (at age 20), I don’t remember the disparity with my peers being as large as it is now. Have the equipment improvements advantaged better players more than they have worse players?  Or have I simply deteriorated at a faster rate 😳?  (The fact that I’ve spent my entire working life behind a desk might support the latter.) 

I was fairly competitive in my late 20's/early 30's; competitive enough to have lost a club championship in a playoff and to have qualified for the New York State Amateur.  I was 5'9" and weighed about 165, and I guess I hit the ball around 235.  That enabled me to get to all the par 4's where I played, sometimes with a long iron or 4-wood, but mostly with the other irons in my bag.

 

I think that there are a lot of bigger, stronger players playing in their 30's and 40's now - come to think of it, my son is 37 and is bigger and stronger than I was, and hits the ball around 270 without being fitted.  Then there are some older guys who played tennis and got the golf bug later in life.  Some of those guys are lanky and pretty long off the tee.  And then there are 20-somethings who never had to learn with persimmon, and who learned to hit the ball as hard as they could in their teens with 460cc drivers and good graphite shafts.  Among better players, the game is a lot longer now than in the 1970's and 1980's.

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

 

 

Not surprisingly you missed the point, again.

 

 

These 4-5 groups (16-20 golfers) spread out on this muni are impacting other golfers on the course.  They are behind one of these groups who is waiting for the short par fours and the par fives' greens to clear.  They might be getting hit into out in the fairway.  If these 4-5 groups have the distance but not the accuracy, they are waiting for them to hunt their ball in the rough or waiting for them to reload on the tee.

 

If they are a conscientious group that can drive it a long way, they may send a cart up to see if the coast is clear.  Now you are waiting for them to drive back to the tee box.

 

A longer in length game takes longer to play, for everyone.  Building courses that are 7500+ yards take longer to play even when played at shorter distances because of the distances between greens and tees.  That take more water, fertilizer, and other chemicals.  More length of irrigation system to run and further to pump the water.  More cost to maintain and more cost back to the golfer to pay. 

 

How is it that statistically the longest hitters (say 290+) make up only 0.5% of the golfing population (from Arccos data reports), yet are somehow putting up 4-5 groups every round, every day, on every course in America?

 

So either you're misrepresenting the prevalence of the longest hitters, or those who are causing these backups aren't truly the long hitters. Perhaps these misguided golfers causing backups by always waiting for the green to clear are the same guys who play the wrong tees, and aren't actually long hitters. Do you think that the guys playing the wrong tees and causing backups are going to suddenly change their behavior of forcing groups to wait if they lose a few yards off their already short shots? 

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Cool.  I probably wouldn’t tip out Bethpage black (or any of the other 4 if they are similarly designed) either given you example is considered one of the most difficult courses you can play in the US.  
 

I don’t know what this proves or disproves other than course can be designed to play very difficult under, or in this case slightly over 7k yards?
 

 It certainly doesn’t mean all course in the us US are designed to play as difficult as The Bethpage 5some.

 

Black is hard. Red is middling. Blue I find tricky, but not hard particularly. Green and Yellow are pretty easy. My point is all these clubs which apparently need to be longer because the ball goes too far don't actually need to be longer. If they did, then places that have the real estate to have courses play longer would do so. But they don't. 

[Pnwpingi210]

4 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Black is hard. Red is middling. Blue I find tricky, but not hard particularly. Green and Yellow are pretty easy. My point is all these clubs which apparently need to be longer because the ball goes too far don't actually need to be longer. If they did, then places that have the real estate to have courses play longer would do so. But they don't. 

Bethpage black appears to have added 200 yards between 2002 and 2009.   (2002 us open at 7200 ish yards, 2009 us open and 2012 Barclays at 7400 ish yards).  So yes, this course did indeed add length in the last 15 or so years.

 

it was already generally considered one of the hardest courses in the U.S…..so what does that tell you?