USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[gvogel]

13 minutes ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

Why not shorten the courses to 2000 yards and play with a ping pong ball or shuttlecock?

You could join me in playing par 3 courses with the floater Point 5 ball.  Talk about fast play.

[gvogel]

Just now, gvogel said:

You could join me in playing par 3 courses with the floater Point 5 ball.  Talk about fast play.

I apologize for taking this thread to 422 pages.

[Pnwpingi210]

12 minutes ago, gvogel said:

I apologize for taking this thread to 422 pages.

Well atleast the discussion has moved to people throwing out ideas for solutions (even if some are absurd) vs inaction and bickering using fallacy.

 

to make progress eventually you have to start somewhere and move forward.

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, gvogel said:

I have seen a couple of doctors who wanted to play early and go to work take less than 2-1/2 hours to play 18.  They knew what they were doing.

 

2 hours ago, gvogel said:

As a former 68 year old whose wedge play was dialed in, I often shot the flag from 60 yards.  Sometimes it was hard for me to tell if it was 50 yards or 70 yards, and those distances required different wedges or different swings.  But on the whole, I am a fast player.

 

Exactly. Again demonstrates that slow play or fast play is more the player than anything else. Wouldn't shock me of those doctors are slow af on a Sunday morning when they want to spend the day away from the wife and kids, too. 

 

Again, it's a little OT to the rollback idea, but my pet peeve is that whatever someone likes, will invariably be linked to slow play. "Rangefinders? So every 20-cap can shoot the flag from 30 yards like it makes a difference? Enjoy your 5 hour rounds!"

 

No, a fast player can play fast with a rangefinder on a 7,000 yard course. And a slow player will play slow without a rangefinder on a 5,000 yard course. 

[Pnwpingi210]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

Exactly. Again demonstrates that slow play or fast play is more the player than anything else. Wouldn't shock me of those doctors are slow af on a Sunday morning when they want to spend the day away from the wife and kids, too. 

 

Again, it's a little OT to the rollback idea, but my pet peeve is that whatever someone likes, will invariably be linked to slow play. "Rangefinders? So every 20-cap can shoot the flag from 30 yards like it makes a difference? Enjoy your 5 hour rounds!"

 

No, a fast player can play fast with a rangefinder on a 7,000 yard course. And a slow player will play slow without a rangefinder on a 5,000 yard course. 

A basic distaste for stereotyping!

[Ashley Schaeffer]

2 hours ago, stevesteven1 said:

That’s a question. But it’s not what I asked and it’s nothing to do with the thread.

a shorter course, all things being equal, is cheaper and faster to play. Give me the equipment to match and I’d have no problem playing at 5000 yards or even less 

So, all things wouldn't be equal.  I can't comment on the cheaper claim because I don't set prices.  But, I think a longer course can actually improve pace sometimes (assuming carts).  Ol' Randy in front of me hooks his tee shot on a 470 par four and punches his second downfield out of range, so now I can tee off.  Whereas, if Ol' Randy does the same on a 250 par four, he's waiting for the green to clear before he hacks it out just like the group ahead of him did because he thinks he can get there just like they did.  Couple that dynamic with the fact that Ol' Randy and Friends might just hit stroke limits and pick up and move on on the longer layout, and there are instances where a longer course could be faster than an executive layout with the same number of groups on the tee sheet.  

 

We've seen people argue that too many players can reach greens in under par (meaning from "too far" out), or at least think they can, so they hold up play.  Put that course at 5,000 and watch the number of players waiting for the greens to clear skyrocket, even if you shorten equipment.  Why? Because no matter how much you shorten the course and equipment Ol' Randy and Friends are not laying up from 100. Taking it to its logical end, even if you give him 1920s equipment, Ol' Randy won't be maxing his driver out at 80 yards, so he's still waiting for the green to clear on a 100yd approach.

Edited May 7 by Ashley Schaeffer

[bekgolf]

2 hours ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

Why not shorten the courses to 2000 yards and play with a ping pong ball or shuttlecock?

 

Or frisbies

[Titleist99]

File this under .....Touring Pros can adapt to anything:

 

"Though it’s a long par-4, top players routinely felt they had to sacrifice distance for precision because the shape of the tee shot is paramount. So when they made the turn, they holstered their driver and used a 3-wood instead.

That’s until they started adding a new weapon to their golf bags, a trendy new club that’s suddenly showing up everywhere from major championships to your local muni. It’s known as the miniature driver, and it was created to solve exactly the type of challenge posed by Camellia."

 

The game continue to evolve.

[Archimedes65]

12 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

They probably know you and do it to yank your chain.

 

Absolutely true.  Which is why I rarely play these days unless I’m first off in the morning.  I’ve lost all patience for slow play on the golf course.  I’d rather do something else than play behind disrespectful folks.  It’s not a large percentage at our club, but there are some older members who think they’re the Kings of the castle.

[Archimedes65]

4 hours ago, gvogel said:

I have seen a couple of doctors who wanted to play early and go to work take less than 2-1/2 hours to play 18.  They knew what they were doing.

 

I can play our 7,000 yard course in a cart in under two hours without even breaking a sweat.  I actually did it in 1 hour and 25 minutes one afternoon.  The target for a foursome round should be 3-3.5 hours.

 

The problem at the moment is that all the clubs are full (or the ones that keep low member numbers are inaccessible to mooks like me) so the days of being a member at a club with a relatively open tee sheet are gone, at least out here in California.  I’ve told our club president that I’d be happy to pay another initiation fee and double the monthly dues if they just cut membership by half.

[RoyalMustang]

On 5/6/2024 at 11:56 AM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

BTW maybe this is off topic, but one of my golf/GolfWRX pet peeves is that a lot of people jump on the "X causes slow play!" bandwagon if for whatever reason they don't like X. I personally don't buy it. Slow play is caused by slow players. It's not caused by long hitters. It's not caused by high caps. It's caused by people who couldn't get out of their own way even if they were playing to scratch with an average of 220 off the tee. These are the same people who wait for the waitress to show up at their table before they actually think to look at the menu, and drive 5 mph under the speed limit in the left lane on the highway. They're just slow. 

 

That said, I don't seem to run into any of these long hitters out there on the typical courses I play. I'm not particularly long (250 off the tee on a good one), and when paired with randoms I am almost always the longest hitter in the group, and on the rare occasions I'm not, it's not them outhitting me by 50 yards. Maybe I don't play with golfers who are good enough or on courses that are elite enough, but like @Simpsonia I find it hard to believe that on most courses you're going to have 16-20 players out there that are bombing it 300. 

 

There are some arguments that are decent in support of a rollback, but I think slow play isn't one of them. 

 

I definitely agree. I played with a couple of "not great players", but great guys, last Friday. We were on 3:30 pace until we got behind a group of clueless morons on hole 11 who thought they had rented out the entire course. The guys I was with played scramble style as one of them was in the woods on 2/3s of the shots. But they dropped together, didn't go off in the woods for 5 minutes looking for every ball, weren't keeping score, and picked up when necessary. It was awesome.  

 

The clowns we met on hole 11 wouldn't let us play through until we said "hey, we stood around for 10 minutes on the last hole and 10 minues on the hole before that. Playing through will prevent us from accidentally hitting into you". Plus, by then, we had picked up a 4th guy and were still waiting 10 minutes. 4 holes later we were 2 holes ahead of them.  They were actually pretty good golfers but somehow thought 20 minutes per hole was a reasonable pace on an empty course. 

[ThinkingPlus]

Folks overly concerned about PoP should consider petitioning their course to require a mandatory play format. Foursomes is very fast. Both match play and Stableford are quicker as well.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

10 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

in no reality is the longer course playing quicker. You’re better than that 

 

IDK, man.  Put a full tee sheet at 9 minute tee times on 5,000 and then put the same exact players on a full tee sheet at 9 minute tee times on 7,000.  With carts, as stipulated, I bet it would be a lot closer than we've been led to believe for the reasons noted.  The only evidence I have is personal experience.  I worked at a muni in college that tipped at just under 7k.  The men's league played from about 6,500.  They had a tourney every year where they played the far forward tees a shade over 5,000.  It was always brutally slow because a lot of the guys who would lay up during regular play were waiting for greens to clear.  Not just talking about par fives, as there were many par fours under 300, etc.

 

I'll try to explain better:  If Randy (an average-paced 6hcp who would 'definitely be on tour if he just had more time to practice') hits it 250 into the sh*t on a 460 par four, he's laying up from 210+ even if he has a bit of a window.  Players behind can then tee off just like Randy did.  Same Randy does the same thing on a 320 par four, he's waiting for the green to clear because he'll take that chance with the same window.  Players behind have to wait just like Randy did before he hit that awful tee shot. Randy dies of old age waiting for the round to end.  Don't kill Randy.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

1 minute ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

IDK, man.  Put a full tee sheet at 9 minute tee times on 5,000 and then put the same exact players on a full tee sheet at 9 minute tee times on 7,000.  With carts, as stipulated, I bet it would be a lot closer than we've been led to believe for the reasons noted. Where are the most backups, always?  Par threes.  Why? Because you can't tee off until the green is clear.  The only evidence I have is personal experience.  I worked at a muni in college that tipped at just under 7k.  The men's league played from about 6,500.  They had a tourney every year where they played the far forward tees a shade over 5,000.  It was always brutally slow because a lot of the guys who would lay up during regular play were waiting for greens to clear.  Not just talking about par fives, as there were many par fours under 300, etc.

 

I'll try to explain better:  If Randy (an average-paced 6hcp who would 'definitely be on tour if he just had more time to practice') hits it 250 into the sh*t on a 460 par four, he's laying up from 210+ even if he has a bit of a window.  Players behind can then tee off just like Randy did.  Same Randy does the same thing on a 320 par four, he's waiting for the green to clear because he'll take that chance with the same window.  Players behind have to wait just like Randy did before he hit that awful tee shot. Randy dies of old age waiting for the round to end.  Don't kill Randy.

 

Edited, and double posted.

Edited May 7 by Ashley Schaeffer

[clevited]

40 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

 

IDK, man.  Put a full tee sheet at 9 minute tee times on 5,000 and then put the same exact players on a full tee sheet at 9 minute tee times on 7,000.  With carts, as stipulated, I bet it would be a lot closer than we've been led to believe for the reasons noted.  The only evidence I have is personal experience.  I worked at a muni in college that tipped at just under 7k.  The men's league played from about 6,500.  They had a tourney every year where they played the far forward tees a shade over 5,000.  It was always brutally slow because a lot of the guys who would lay up during regular play were waiting for greens to clear.  Not just talking about par fives, as there were many par fours under 300, etc.

 

I'll try to explain better:  If Randy (an average-paced 6hcp who would 'definitely be on tour if he just had more time to practice') hits it 250 into the sh*t on a 460 par four, he's laying up from 210+ even if he has a bit of a window.  Players behind can then tee off just like Randy did.  Same Randy does the same thing on a 320 par four, he's waiting for the green to clear because he'll take that chance with the same window.  Players behind have to wait just like Randy did before he hit that awful tee shot. Randy dies of old age waiting for the round to end.  Don't kill Randy.

 

Logic, Reasoning, Experience.  I declare your point the winner.  Miles will have to try again.

 

Edited May 7 by clevited

[Chunkitgood]

Golf is by its nature a resource intensive activity, it costs a lot not just in terms of money but in terms of land, water, labor etc. but more relevantly here in terms of time.  Hitting a ball with a stick around for 3 or 4 miles is inherently a time consuming business.  Add in the time taken in learning to play, and the time “price” of golf is substantial.

 

Generally people in a hurry on a golf course are in a hurry because they cannot really afford to play golf in terms of time price, and perhaps in other terms, time being money (or at least sort of fungible).

 

Similarly people who want golf to be easier more correctly should be considered unable to afford in time and money price of learning to play properly, else one would presume that they would do so.

 

All of which is to say leisurely relaxed players who appreciate the difficulty of the undertaking belong on the course, and hurried anxious or angry ones who find it too hard to master with their resources should consider a different pastime that suits those resources.

 

Play is inherently slow, that is, is expensive in terms of time.  As it becomes more popular it becomes slower, that is, the time “price” rises in response to demand.  This is not a problem that can be addressed by changes to the conditions for testing maximum distance.  It is not really a problem.

 

Distinct however from normal slow play is stoppage of play, which often results from the bottlenecks caused by people attempting par fives in two and driving short fours, a practice which has increased as more people hit the ball longer and even greater numbers who cannot emulate those who can.  Longer drives have added shorts fours and most fives to par threes as bottlenecks. People may not even perceive the stoppages they cause since generally they happen behind them.

[Archimedes65]

Slow play is normal?    Mmmmmkayy….

 

Slow play is caused by inconsiderate people, often who are just not experienced enough about proper golf course ettiquette.  To accept slow play as ‘normal’ is to give in to the tyranny of the minority.

Edited May 7 by Archimedes65

[Golferpaul]

On 5/4/2024 at 3:16 PM, klebs01 said:

they are all over. When most courses around me were built, they tipped out in the 6200-6400 range. Everything over that has been added. Some have gotten over 6800. A ton haven’t. 

Here are the courses I played for the first time over the last three years.  Only ONE is below 6800 yards and most are well over 7000.

 

Golf Course	State	Country	Yards
Black Butte	OR	USA	7007
Barton Creek Canyons	TX	USA	7174
Barton Creek Foothills	TX	USA	7087
Black Desert	UT	USA	7417
Brasada Ranch	OR	USA	7295
Bridlewood	TX	USA	7111
Copper Rock	UT	USA	7227
Coral Canyon	UT	USA	7146
Cougar Point	SC	USA	6814
Crosswater	OR	USA	7683
Diamante Dunes		Mexico	7022
Eagle Ranch	CO	USA	7461
El Cardonal		Mexico	7363
Entrada	UT	USA	7065
Kapalua - Plantation course	HI	USA	7596
Oak Point	SC	USA	6701
Osprey Point	SC	USA	6902
Promontory Dye	UT	USA	7690
Promontory Nicklaus	UT	USA	8061
Pronghorn Fazio	OR	USA	7456
Pronghorn Nicklaus	OR	USA	7379
Quail Hollow	NC	USA	7618
Rancho San Lucas		Mexico	7210
Reunion Nicklaus	FL	USA	7219
Reunion Palmer	FL	USA	6916
Reynolds Great Waters	GA	USA	7358
Reynolds Landing	GA	USA	6991
Reynolds National	GA	USA	7034
Reynolds Oconee	GA	USA	7393
Sand Hollow	UT	USA	7315
Southern Dunes	FL	USA	7192
Streamsong Black	FL	USA	7320
Streamsong Blue	FL	USA	7276
Streamsong Red	FL	USA	7110
Tetherow	OR	USA	7283
Timarron	TX	USA	7013
Turtle Point	SC	USA	6911
Waikoloa Beach	HI	USA	6807
Wailea Emerald	HI	USA	6825

[Ashley Schaeffer]

22 minutes ago, stevesteven1 said:

now.. roll back the equipment so it’s appropriate to the course and what do you got ?

 

Have some thinking time 

Already addressed that.  You'd have the same, and perhaps even worse.  Go back to my first post from earlier on the topic re: the 5,000yd course with rolled back equipment.  Even if he's rolled back 100 yards from his max off the tee (extremely unlikely), and the hole is 120-150 yards shorter to account for it, Randy isn't laying up from 100 yards.  Green has to clear.  

 

And, really, you don't have to be confrontational about things that will never happen anyway.  I'm just sharing my opinion on what I believe would happen from 5,000 yards.  Even with a rollback within the realm of possibility, I don't think it would markedly improve the pace of play.    

[Oostiesalbacore]

Instead of rolling back the ball, why can’t the courses that are unable to add length redraw their penalty or OB boundaries in such a way to create landing areas that discourage bomb and gouge?

Sure, you whacked it 325 yards that’s great but you’re outside of the landing area and therefore OB. Maybe try teeing off with something else once in a while. It’s far more efficient in the long run for short courses to invest in a chalk line machine than it is to bifurcate the game with a double ball or nerfed ball situation. 
 

The pins move every day in tournament play. Move the new fairway OBs and add some precision to the game and leave my balls alone. 

[Archimedes65]

Narrow fairways, grow rough, firm up greens, and tuck pins and you can make any course played with any ball difficult.  The golf ball rollback idea is epically stupid.

 

Hey, scoring is way up in the NBA, we’re gonna increase the ball the amateurs play with to 32”, raise the rim 6”, and move the three point line back two feet.  Or we could just call the Eurostupid what it really is, traveling, and stop calling every defense of a drive a block.

Edited May 8 by Archimedes65

[klebs01]

3 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Here are the courses I played for the first time over the last three years.  Only ONE is below 6800 yards and most are well over 7000.

 

Golf Course	State	Country	Yards
Black Butte	OR	USA	7007
Barton Creek Canyons	TX	USA	7174
Barton Creek Foothills	TX	USA	7087
Black Desert	UT	USA	7417
Brasada Ranch	OR	USA	7295
Bridlewood	TX	USA	7111
Copper Rock	UT	USA	7227
Coral Canyon	UT	USA	7146
Cougar Point	SC	USA	6814
Crosswater	OR	USA	7683
Diamante Dunes		Mexico	7022
Eagle Ranch	CO	USA	7461
El Cardonal		Mexico	7363
Entrada	UT	USA	7065
Kapalua - Plantation course	HI	USA	7596
Oak Point	SC	USA	6701
Osprey Point	SC	USA	6902
Promontory Dye	UT	USA	7690
Promontory Nicklaus	UT	USA	8061
Pronghorn Fazio	OR	USA	7456
Pronghorn Nicklaus	OR	USA	7379
Quail Hollow	NC	USA	7618
Rancho San Lucas		Mexico	7210
Reunion Nicklaus	FL	USA	7219
Reunion Palmer	FL	USA	6916
Reynolds Great Waters	GA	USA	7358
Reynolds Landing	GA	USA	6991
Reynolds National	GA	USA	7034
Reynolds Oconee	GA	USA	7393
Sand Hollow	UT	USA	7315
Southern Dunes	FL	USA	7192
Streamsong Black	FL	USA	7320
Streamsong Blue	FL	USA	7276
Streamsong Red	FL	USA	7110
Tetherow	OR	USA	7283
Timarron	TX	USA	7013
Turtle Point	SC	USA	6911
Waikoloa Beach	HI	USA	6807
Wailea Emerald	HI	USA	6825

ok. So you like new courses in the sun belt. Not really representative sample. Some good courses there and a few I’ve enjoyed playing in the 7100-7500 range. That doesn’t at all address the thousands of golden age courses that are land locked and can’t get to those lengths, yet are vitally important for 10s of millions of golfers. 

[Simpsonia]

13 hours ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

Instead of rolling back the ball, why can’t the courses that are unable to add length redraw their penalty or OB boundaries in such a way to create landing areas that discourage bomb and gouge?

Sure, you whacked it 325 yards that’s great but you’re outside of the landing area and therefore OB. Maybe try teeing off with something else once in a while. It’s far more efficient in the long run for short courses to invest in a chalk line machine than it is to bifurcate the game with a double ball or nerfed ball situation. 
 

The pins move every day in tournament play. Move the new fairway OBs and add some precision to the game and leave my balls alone. 

 

I've been suggesting something similar for professional tour play. Temporary interior OB or faux water hazards are a super cheap and easy way to create pinch points and hazards that need to be accounted for off the tee for professional play. They create a more dynamic tournament year over year, since the setup can be varied and improved as rounds are played and data gathered. It also would have zero affect on the members/public golfers who use the course the other 361 days of the year, since on average those golfers are only knocking it 220yards off the tee. 

 

It would also solve a lot of people's issues with "boring courses". Look at somewhere like the Detroit Golf Club, it could really be revived as an interesting tournament if they could get creative with the setup. The Broadcast could also get creative with visual overlays for viewers at home too. 

 

13 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

Narrow fairways, grow rough, firm up greens, and tuck pins and you can make any course played with any ball difficult.  The golf ball rollback idea is epically stupid.

 

 

I mean this is basically what the USGA does already for US Open setups. Unfortunately, as both the statistics and anecdotes (Bryson at Winged Food) show, this only encourages and incentivizes distance and bomb and gouge. To balance golf, we need to reduce the relative value of distance off the tee. The only way to do that is to create real obstacles that distance can't overcome. 12" tall rough can be overcome by club loft and speed, as Bryson showed. The data shows though that the courses the reward distance the least are shorter or more technical courses like Harbor Town, TPC Sawgrass, and Royal Melbourne. Tournament organizers just need the ability and creativity in course setup. 

[smashdn]

17 hours ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

It was always brutally slow because a lot of the guys who would lay up during regular play were waiting for greens to clear.  Not just talking about par fives, as there were many par fours under 300, etc.

 

Hmm, yeah.

 

Whether you play at 5000 yards and you really shouldn't or you drive it 320, the impact is the same, the course cannot hold the distance you hit the ball, without slowing everyone down due to waiting.

[Oostiesalbacore]

Just make a rule that you’re not allowed to hit the ball too far and if you do, you’re punished by using a less effective ball. You could have a Marshall on the tee box asses the drive and if it’s too far, sorry lad, hit again with this other ball. 
 

you think this is absurd but it’s actually what’s happening 

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

Unfortunately, as both the statistics and anecdotes (Bryson at Winged Food) show, this only encourages and incentivizes distance and bomb and gouge. 

 

That's not really fair to Bryson though. He hit above average number of fairways that week, so he was hitting it miles and, given that, incredibly straight. The problem with Winged Foot I think is that the fairways were so narrow that no one could reliably hit them, so the gouge part was pretty much guaranteed, meaning that the question was bomb or not bomb, not bomb and gouge or fairway finders. 

 

Trees give the bombers trouble. That's why Harbour Town is not a bomb and gouge course. TPC Sawgrass is also good at not being like that. It seems less clear why, but I think Sawgrass has a few holes where the doglegs start early and the trees stop you cutting corners. 2 for example, it's almost impossible to bomb one off that tee. 11 also. That and holes like 14 and 18 where the long hitters have to be conservative because of the water there, so they wind up in heavy rough with awkward lies and lines.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Hmm, yeah.

 

Whether you play at 5000 yards and you really shouldn't or you drive it 320, the impact is the same, the course cannot hold the distance you hit the ball, without slowing everyone down due to waiting.

 

My point is that I believe more players will not "fit" the course at 5,000 yards, even with any realistic rollback, than players who do not currently "fit" the course now.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

[Oostiesalbacore]

1 hour ago, stevesteven1 said:

Page 389

That post you’re referring to is completely wrong so I don’t know why you are pretending it’s the end of the conversation. One of your points is that the decision to allow 460cc heads helped increase distance since pros can tee it up higher and gain extra carry. So, instead of monkeying with the ball, either limit tee length or ban them altogether. 
 

That approach costs zero dollars and also solves the problem of people hitting it too far. 
 

Another approach is to let people hit the ball as far as they want and if you don’t want to hit it that far to preserve the game or the integrity of the course, then please club down and leave my balls alone. 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

19 minutes ago, Oostiesalbacore said:

That post you’re referring to is completely wrong so I don’t know why you are pretending it’s the end of the conversation. One of your points is that the decision to allow 460cc heads helped increase distance since pros can tee it up higher and gain extra carry. So, instead of monkeying with the ball, either limit tee length or ban them altogether. 
 

That approach costs zero dollars and also solves the problem of people hitting it too far. 
 

Another approach is to let people hit the ball as far as they want and if you don’t want to hit it that far to preserve the game or the integrity of the course, then please club down and leave my balls alone. 

 

Kinda where I'm at on it.  Everyone who wants to play as the architect intended is free to do so.  You can start at your average score and subtract a stroke for every shot you hit that would make the architect nod in approval.  Wait, that wouldn't work because it would be about score.  So, maybe go back to my Shot Value Unit ("SVU") model.  Add up all of the SVUs you get in a round and assign yourself "shot value spirit score".  But it can't be numerical, because it's not about score.  It has to be like a squirrel or a sea turtle, or a pinecone.  You know, something that truly captures the essence of the layout.  If you make three momentous decisions that pay off (in the eyes of the architect, of course), you get assigned a Golden Gopher or something.  Just have fun with it.

[IndyArcher]

On 5/6/2024 at 6:13 PM, Archimedes65 said:

 

Amen brother!  Slow play comes in all shapes, sizes, and handicaps.  Some of the slowest players at our club are the low handicaps.  Drives me nuts playing with them.  There was a guy in my foursome a while who was just glacial.  I finally told him to feel free to go ahead and start taking his practice swings and waggles while I was hitting, and start reading his putts when I was putting out.  Eventually, I just started putting out and walking off the greens while he was making his sixth read from a different angle on a dead straight six footer.

 

I agree to an extent, but I did play with a kid (20's) from church last year who was a hacker (being generous). He was not a slow player per se, but was so bad he averaged 10-12 shots per hole. That made for a slow round, for sure, based solely on the number of shots taken! 

BTW, we did talk about the need to spend some time at the range and probably lessons before hitting the course again. Haven't played with him since. Great kid, but golf is definitely not second-nature to him.