USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[StoutKing]

9 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Yep, the sky is falling for rollbackers over the golfball distance, yet we just watched a tournament where player was driving 350 yards and only eight players broke par....🤣

For the millionth time.  It has nothing to do with par.  It has to do with the architecture of the golf course.  Just re-read Donald Ross's book on Pinehurst last night and he said every facet of the game should be tested equally, and then he spelled it out.  That's decided not what's happening today.  Golf is just a drive and pitch game now.  Saw many sand wedges into 500 yard par 4s yesterday.  Can't think of anything more boring than that.  Let's bring back all skill, and once again, par is irrelevant.

[J Bez]

Why does it matter if you hit it 320 off the tee and I hit it 260 off the tee??  As long as the hole is a driver 9 iron for you and a driver 5 iron for me you have retained your distance advantage??  Fans like the long ball??  Well id the average golfer hits it 190 then a 270 yard drive is huge....

[smashdn]

On 6/14/2024 at 5:07 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

I'm not sure there's any "point of diminishing returns" that an S-curve would indicate. At least not at real-world speeds we encounter in golf. 

 

I agree with that.  Surely someone somewhere has whacked a golf ball with an "iron byron" on a launch monitor and just "cranked it to eleven" to see what would happen.

[munichop]

The best solution for a rollback ball spec would be to make it lower compression and spinnier so the ball acts as a distance govenor and the spin punishes the mishit more.  Today's tour balls act like a cavity back iron compared to the old balatas.  But the rollback would have to be way more than the proposed one to recreate the persimmon, muscle back era. 

I prefer bifurcation since it already exists. I have never played a course with the grass cut as short as the pros unless it was in Scotland but I expect they lower the blades there on fairways for the pros.  

Watching BD hit it 379  and over 340 regularly means the USGA proposal has lost before it was even put in effect.  

Instead they have to put pins in absurd locations and watch the best players in the world putt off greens, all so they don't get more than 10 under the arbitrary par...

[ThinkingPlus]

9 minutes ago, munichop said:

The best solution for a rollback ball spec would be to make it lower compression and spinnier so the ball acts as a distance govenor and the spin punishes the mishit more.  Today's tour balls act like a cavity back iron compared to the old balatas.  But the rollback would have to be way more than the proposed one to recreate the persimmon, muscle back era. 

I prefer bifurcation since it already exists. I have never played a course with the grass cut as short as the pros unless it was in Scotland but I expect they lower the blades there on fairways for the pros.  

Watching BD hit it 379  and over 340 regularly means the USGA proposal has lost before it was even put in effect.  

Instead they have to put pins in absurd locations and watch the best players in the world putt off greens, all so they don't get more than 10 under the arbitrary par...

Low compression = less spin

[munichop]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Low compression = less spin

In current balls.  I am saying what the new ball should be.  Current balls are engineered for the current specifications.  My comment was addressing a new specification.   In other words the new ball should not travel as far and spin more to magnify misses.  But the rollback the USGA proposes won't do enough to transform the current landscape.  Instead it will cost a lot of money and have no significant impact on the top players just like the groove rules.

[clevited]

14 minutes ago, munichop said:

The best solution for a rollback ball spec would be to make it lower compression and spinnier so the ball acts as a distance govenor and the spin punishes the mishit more.  Today's tour balls act like a cavity back iron compared to the old balatas.  But the rollback would have to be way more than the proposed one to recreate the persimmon, muscle back era. 

I prefer bifurcation since it already exists. I have never played a course with the grass cut as short as the pros unless it was in Scotland but I expect they lower the blades there on fairways for the pros.  

Watching BD hit it 379  and over 340 regularly means the USGA proposal has lost before it was even put in effect.  

Instead they have to put pins in absurd locations and watch the best players in the world putt off greens, all so they don't get more than 10 under the arbitrary par...

 

Bifurcation of equipment doesn't exist in any meaningful way.  Bifurcation of course conditions is not the same as equipment.

 

As thinkingplus said, lower compression = less spin, not more.

 

USGA putting pins in absurd locations making players putt off greens so that they can keep the scores low just shows you how much the roll back agenda really is all about score to par.

 

You make it sound like driving it as far as BD did during a high stakes tournament was easy.  I assure you it is not, and what he did just showed off his incredible talent and stable mind/focus.  He hits a 5* driver I believe.  Go ahead, try and keep that on the map at 190 bs.  

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Bifurcation of equipment doesn't exist in any meaningful way.  Bifurcation of course conditions is not the same as equipment.

 

As thinkingplus said, lower compression = less spin, not more.

 

USGA putting pins in absurd locations making players putt off greens so that they can keep the scores low just shows you how much the roll back agenda really is all about score to par.

 

You make it sound like driving it as far as BD did during a high stakes tournament was easy.  I assure you it is not, and what he did just showed off his incredible talent and stable mind/focus.  He hits a 5* driver I believe.  Go ahead, try and keep that on the map at 190 bs.  

Rory hits a 7 degree driver with 185-189 ball speed

 

bryson hits 5 degree driver around 189-191 ball speed

On a par 3

bryson hit a 30 degree lofted club (8 iron) 220 yards 

rory hit a 30 degree lofts club (6iron) 220 yards

Both clubs where 37.5 inches long.

 

Bryson is hitting his clubs when comparing lofts roughly the same distance and ball speed as Rory

[smashdn]

4 minutes ago, clevited said:

USGA putting pins in absurd locations making players putt off greens so that they can keep the scores low just shows you how much the roll back agenda really is all about score to par.

 

They did that in the 70's and 80's too.  I don't think there was a rollback agenda then, or if there was, it was certainly not what it currently is.

[clevited]

Just now, Pnwpingi210 said:

Rory hits a 7 degree driver with 185-189 ball speed

 

bryson hits 5 degree driver around 189-191 ball speed

On a par 3

bryson hit a 30 degree lofted club (8 iron) 220 yards 

rory hit a 30 degree lofts club (6iron) 220 yards

Both clubs where 37.5 inches long.

 

Bryson is hitting his clubs when comparing lofts roughly the same distance and ball speed as Rory

 

Not sure what this has to do with what I posted but ok, cool beans ol chap.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Not sure what this has to do with what I posted but ok, cool beans ol chap.

Rory and others hit it just as far, and with as much skill as bryson.

 

How he goes about it is unique, but the outcomes are similar to the other high speed players on the tour

Edited June 17 by Pnwpingi210

[munichop]

2 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Bifurcation of equipment doesn't exist in any meaningful way.  Bifurcation of course conditions is not the same as equipment.

 

As thinkingplus said, lower compression = less spin, not more.

 

USGA putting pins in absurd locations making players putt off greens so that they can keep the scores low just shows you how much the roll back agenda really is all about score to par.

 

You make it sound like driving it as far as BD did during a high stakes tournament was easy.  I assure you it is not, and what he did just showed off his incredible talent and stable mind/focus.  He hits a 5* driver I believe.  Go ahead, try and keep that on the map at 190 bs.  

I know it is difficult to drive the ball a long way.  So you think a low compression high spin ball can't be made?  What were old balatas that were for women then?   The USGA has always been focused on "par" more than any other major.   I agree.  What I am saying is any rollback currently proposed not enough to change the game at the highest level.  The new ball would have to mimic old balatas a lot more.  So the change the USGA proposes will not require pros to vary their approach to scoring- just like the groove debacle.

[clevited]

Just now, munichop said:

I know it is difficult to drive the ball a long way.  So you think a low compression high spin ball can't be made?  What were old balatas that were for women then?   The USGA has always been focused on "par" more than any other major.   I agree.  What I am saying is any rollback currently proposed not enough to change the game at the highest level.  The new ball would have to mimic old balatas a lot more.  So the change the USGA proposes will not require pros to vary their approach to scoring- just like the groove debacle.

 

The old balatas spun a lot due mostly to the clubs used at the time and the traditional "hit down on the ball" driving method.  Newer clubs have been made more intelligently and allow people with swings that hit down to realize more optimized numbers off the tee, while others can go the other route and hit up and gain even more optimized numbers off the tee.  

 

I do agree however that what they propose will do practically nothing to address the supposed "problem".  That is why I say, why do anything at all if you are just going to effectively accomplish nothing.  Leave the game alone or roll it back 20% for everyone via lowered ballspeed.

[maamold]

5 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Speed/distance is a skill.

 

Hitting the ball straight with speed is a skill.

 

these guys also have skill through the bag otherwise they wouldn’t be on tour. The ones who have the better skills through the bag are the ones on the leaderboard every week.

 

This lack of skill talk is nonsense. 

Bryson is the more skilled golfer but was always 25-30 yards behind while using a steel shafted wood from the 80's off the tee. Seems like Bryson's skill isn't the determining factor for his speed and distance. Garret also beat Bryson (2024 US Open Champ) by 4 shots without breaking a sweat. But skill is the determining factor according to Anti-rollbackers. 
 

 

[clevited]

8 minutes ago, maamold said:

Bryson is the more skilled golfer but was always 25-30 yards behind while using a steel shafted wood from the 80's off the tee. Seems like Bryson's skill isn't the determining factor for his speed and distance. Garret also beat Bryson (2024 US Open Champ) by 4 shots without breaking a sweat. But skill is the determining factor according to Anti-rollbackers. 
 

 

 

I challenge you to think a bit more before posting this kind of nonsense.  Things you should have considered...

 

1) He is not used to the clubs, he said something to that effect multiple times.

2) You can indeed find an old wooden driver that works decently for you but it can be a painful process.  Needs to be low lofted and you have to tinker with weight distribution.  I would bet that driver spins like 4k rpm for him.

3) Garrett is a great golfer with the ability to match Bryson on a good day (many golfers can do this but not consistently, hence a big reason they aren't on any tours).

4) He still played quite well considering the above.

Edited June 17 by clevited

[ThinkingPlus]

10 minutes ago, munichop said:

I know it is difficult to drive the ball a long way.  So you think a low compression high spin ball can't be made?  What were old balatas that were for women then?   The USGA has always been focused on "par" more than any other major.   I agree.  What I am saying is any rollback currently proposed not enough to change the game at the highest level.  The new ball would have to mimic old balatas a lot more.  So the change the USGA proposes will not require pros to vary their approach to scoring- just like the groove debacle.

Manufacturers made extra low compression balata golf balls for women? Can anyone confirm this?

[Pnwpingi210]

8 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Manufacturers made extra low compression balata golf balls for women? Can anyone confirm this?

 None that I am aware of.  There were some rebranded balls that may have said lady on the the box and maybe been a different color, but were the same “soft” balls that were in the standard line (for lack of a better word)

 

Golf balls don’t know or care about your gender 🙂

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

 None that I am aware of.  There were some rebranded balls that may have said lady on the the box and maybe been a different color, but were the same “soft” balls that were in the standard line (for lack of a better word)

 

Golf balls don’t know or care about your gender 🙂

Were there any low compression balata balls period regardless of branding?

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Were there any low compression balata balls period regardless of branding?

80 was the lowest I was aware of - but my exposure was limited to the 1990s

 

80 was the senior/soft/ ladies ball

90 was the standard ball

100 was for big hitters or really hot days

Edited June 17 by Pnwpingi210

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

80 was the lowest I was aware of - but my exposure was limited to the 1990s

I was only aware of 90s and 100s. I wouldn't really consider 80 as low compression given all the 50 compression marshmallows around today.

[Pnwpingi210]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I was only aware of 90s and 100s. I wouldn't really consider 80 as low compression given all the 50 compression marshmallows around today.

there weren’t many here’s an example for titleist, gender and age agnostic.
 

 

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, StoutKing said:

For the millionth time.  It has nothing to do with par.  It has to do with the architecture of the golf course.  Just re-read Donald Ross's book on Pinehurst last night and he said every facet of the game should be tested equally, and then he spelled it out.  That's decided not what's happening today.  Golf is just a drive and pitch game now.  Saw many sand wedges into 500 yard par 4s yesterday.  Can't think of anything more boring than that.  Let's bring back all skill, and once again, par is irrelevant.

Point #1....most golf fans could give a rats ars about the designer's intent or architecture in general, surely the new fans won't care.

 

Point #2......The only thing more boring than wedge every hole is four irons and woods into every hole. If most fans want to watch that the LPGA would be more popular.

 

For the millionth time, the game is about a score relative to par. If par is irrelevant stop keeping the score, then.

 

**It's a game, not a beauty contest.  IMO 

 

***Fans want to see exactly what they saw at Pinehurst #2. Long drives and drama. Nothing else matters and I think that I speak for 90% of golf fans. Not that that matters to you or the USGA. IMO

Edited June 17 by Titleist99

[gvogel]

12 hours ago, maamold said:

Because when Jack did it, it was because Jack could do it with a 43.5" 105gram steel-shaft 190cc persimmon and low compression wound balata ball... Now when the top pros and amateurs do it, it's the 45.5" 60gram graphite with a 460cc trampoline faced ultra-forgiving driver with a high compression low spin ball that is the deciding factor in that jump in distance.

FFS why is that concept so hard to understand?

Jack really couldn't do it.  He did it once in a PGA long driver contest before a tournament, slightly down hill, down wind, on a hard, brown fairway.  But he still has the money clip that he won that proves he did it.  Like a lot of things, one time in the right conditions does not prove that Jack could hit it 350.  But it makes a nice Paul Bunyan story.

[gvogel]

12 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Yep, the sky is falling for rollbackers over the golfball distance, yet we just watched a tournament where player was driving 350 yards and only eight players broke par....🤣

And they had to play a course that is 7,500 yards long, par 70, with impossible to hold greens, and little bushy wire grass sprinkled in the rough.  Geez, how would you like to play that course every week?  More important, would you watch the Tour if they played courses like that every week?

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Jack really couldn't do it.  He did it once in a PGA long driver contest before a tournament, slightly down hill, down wind, on a hard, brown fairway.  But he still has the money clip that he won that proves he did it.  Like a lot of things, one time in the right conditions does not prove that Jack could hit it 350.  But it makes a nice Paul Bunyan story.

Max Homa hit one 477 this year, but averages 300.

 

sound like jack may have one 350 under unknown conditions, but his average when measured over a  number of drivers was around 270.
 

Edited June 17 by Pnwpingi210

[gvogel]

6 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Lots of cheers yesterday for all of the big drives and didn’t hear any boos when Bryson was hitting balls past everyone. Guess fans like the long ball

If Bryson was hitting the ball 295 and was 40 yards past everyone, I'd be cheering the long ball too.  You base your argument on absolute distance, when it is really his distance relative to his competitors that is important.  Silly.

[gvogel]

6 hours ago, bcjim said:

Equipment makers will vigorously push back on any significant changes. If balls go notably shorter who is going to upgrade their equipment?

 

People buy drivers etc because they think it will improve their game. They think they will hit it further.  And sometimes they actually do. What incentive will there be to buy a $600 driver if you're suddenly  250 instead of 265?

 

And if this nerfing of the ball is going to go unnoticed performance wise for golfers,  then it's a totally pointless exercise.

 

Also Nicklaus gets closer to Paul Bunyan every day.  Soon people will be insisting his caddie was actually a blue ox.

In what other sport, with the exception of sailing and motorsports, do equipment makes have such influence in the game? 

[Titleist99]

6 minutes ago, gvogel said:

And they had to play a course that is 7,500 yards long, par 70, with impossible to hold greens, and little bushy wire grass sprinkled in the rough.  Geez, how would you like to play that course every week?  More important, would you watch the Tour if they played courses like that every week?

You missed my point. I think this course can be shortened. Just to be clear this is the classic example of tricked out.....it just doesn't matter to the rollbackers when the USGA does it.

 

Too much luck involved when it comes to Pinehurst #2           IMO

[Titleist99]

9 minutes ago, gvogel said:

If Bryson was hitting the ball 295 and was 40 yards past everyone, I'd be cheering the long ball too.  You base your argument on absolute distance, when it is really his distance relative to his competitors that is important.  Silly.

Yeah, I can envision you sitting on your sofa cheering for the LPGA long ball every Sunday.

[Golfnutgalen]

9 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Jack really couldn't do it.  He did it once in a PGA long driver contest before a tournament, slightly down hill, down wind, on a hard, brown fairway.  But he still has the money clip that he won that proves he did it.  Like a lot of things, one time in the right conditions does not prove that Jack could hit it 350.  But it makes a nice Paul Bunyan story.

 

Indeed, it's such a bad faith argument to use that over and over again.

 

We know how far young Jack hit the ball, 270 give or take. And that was long back then it's taking nothing away from him. Modern equipment has made a massive difference it is ridiculous to state otherwise. 

 

The average pro hits it 300 now. Rory who is a freak hit's it 330. If Jack was in his prime and hit modern equipment, he wouldn't hit it any further than that - on average.