Let’s play a game of “was the simulator juiced”

[Ri_Redneck]

1 hour ago, Chilidog said:

I live at the foothills of the mountains. Maybe 1000 ft above sea level. I have no idea other than maybe it was picking up something wrong. I did a Ping Demo Day at our club back last fall and they were getting similar carry distances with a Trackman. Not sure what’s off but definitely carrying more than 266. 

The sim doesn't know the altitude where you are. It only knows what it's set at. Real world you gain with a sea-level 250yd driver swing is about 5 yds per thousand feet up to about 7000. Then it starts getting less.

 

BT

[DFS PFD]

I don't see how these aren't juiced numbers. Even with it being documented that low spin shots are egregiously long on this simulator, we're talking 30-50 yards off at this low ball speed. Has to be a compound effect going on here. 

[chollier986]

7 minutes ago, Chilidog said:

I’m thoroughly confused then. 

Your numbers are about as optimized as they can be.  You do not need to be chasing distance via low spin knuckleballs on a launch monitor.  If you want more distance, you need more club head speed.  Seems like you desire 300 yrd carry… no driver will get you there with 106SS.  Foresight sports acknowledges that they overstate driver carry numbers sub 2000 spin.  That is what you were seeing.  It’s not “juiced” numbers by the club shop, simply a nuance with the software.

 

 

[mbarnocki]

These numbers feel very juiced.

 

I was on a trackman at CC earlier this week swinging 107-109 getting 155-161 ball speeds, 2400 ish spin, carrying 265ish on average.

 

When I hit on a GC Hawk at the PGATSS my swing shows 112-115, similar ball speeds. much lower 1700ish spin, and longer 275ish carry up to 285. 

[TheDominator273]

5 minutes ago, DFS PFD said:

I don't see how these aren't juiced numbers. Even with it being documented that low spin shots are egregiously long on this simulator, we're talking 30-50 yards off at this low ball speed. Has to be a compound effect going on here. 

He's got an insane +8 AoA to go with the low spin, it's the perfect recipe for extremely exaggerated distances.

[doctor220]

1 minute ago, TheDominator273 said:

He's got an insane +8 AoA to go with the low spin, it's the perfect recipe for extremely exaggerated distances.

Carrying it 270 at that speed is very good I would say. 300 is impossible. 
 

if people could carry it 300 with 160 ball speed then tour players with 180 ball speed would be flying it 350, which is not happening without help via wind , downslope or altitude. In reality you would be doing very well to fly it 300 with 170-175 ball speed. 

[DFS PFD]

4 minutes ago, TheDominator273 said:

He's got an insane +8 AoA to go with the low spin, it's the perfect recipe for extremely exaggerated distances.

I see that, but even at 15-18* launch I'm not getting him to 312 carry. I'm just saying I think there's multiple things at fault on this, the algorithm and the man behind the computer.  

[Chilidog]

I definitely set off a bomb. I’ll get real world feedback once the club gets here. 

[Brooks_Cupcake]

1 hour ago, Chilidog said:

I definitely set off a bomb. I’ll get real world feedback once the club gets here. 

This should help you realize what is possible and not possible.

[Chilidog]

Ok, I think I might throw a wrench into this even more. I went to a nearby club today and had lunch with a buddy. I was telling him about all of this and he said “I think we have a launch monitor here that we use on the range sometimes if you want to see what the numbers come out to be.” I had my clubs in the car so I told I would be right back. The launch monitor was a Bushnell. After getting warmed up, here were my numbers (my buddy’s best guess at the averages):

 

Swing speed: 112. Ball Speed: 172. Angle of attack: +5*. Carry Distance: 284 yards.

 

Those are the only numbers I focused on from what he told me as he rattled off a bunch of other numbers too that I didn’t think were that relevant. Maybe I was just swinging slow in the simulator?  I felt like I was going after it but I didn’t warm up much before starting to take full driver swings. I also felt like I was focusing on mechanics more in the sim with strangers watching than when I am free swinging during a round. Who knows. Still interested to see how the Paradym stacks up when it gets here. 
 

I should also note that those numbers were hitting range balls which I don’t know if that makes a difference. 

[Chilidog]

I forgot to mention rpms. He said mine was averaging around 2300 as far as he could tell but I hit several skinny that might have ballooned that a little. 

[dgarland]

Depends… were they trying to sell you clubs?  If so, then yes. 

[st1800e]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:01 AM, Chilidog said:

I’m thoroughly confused then. 

Yep,   So am I.  These various monitors and sims are great for dialling in, but “on the course” is the proof in the pudding.  

[nsxguy]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:04 PM, Chilidog said:

Ok, I think I might throw a wrench into this even more. I went to a nearby club today and had lunch with a buddy. I was telling him about all of this and he said “I think we have a launch monitor here that we use on the range sometimes if you want to see what the numbers come out to be.” I had my clubs in the car so I told I would be right back. The launch monitor was a Bushnell. After getting warmed up, here were my numbers (my buddy’s best guess at the averages):

 

Swing speed: 112. Ball Speed: 172. Angle of attack: +5*. Carry Distance: 284 yards.

 

Those are the only numbers I focused on from what he told me as he rattled off a bunch of other numbers too that I didn’t think were that relevant. Maybe I was just swinging slow in the simulator?  I felt like I was going after it but I didn’t warm up much before starting to take full driver swings. I also felt like I was focusing on mechanics more in the sim with strangers watching than when I am free swinging during a round. Who knows. Still interested to see how the Paradym stacks up when it gets here. 
 

I should also note that those numbers were hitting range balls which I don’t know if that makes a difference. 

 

Do you realize you haven't given us a single launch number yet ?

 

You've given us angle of attack but so what ? Means less than nothing. Launch angle is what we are having to ASSume here.

 

Nevertheless, the charts shown earlier are pretty good. A pretty easy way to remember without the charts is, BS= just under 1.5 X SS and carry (assuming close to optimal conditions) s/b around 2.5 times SS.

 

Over any number of years around here, when guys post their "best", those 2 formulae show up very regularly. Of course there are slight differences with differing launch angles and spin rates but those formulae are pretty good for guess-timating.

 

Further, now you mention you didn't warm up much (at all ?) with the first guy. Dude, regardless of age, everybody gets faster after they've gotten warm, even an old fart like me - actually, especially like me.

 

Takes me better than a dozen swings, with stretching before swing 1, to get anywhere near max swing speed. Being younger I'd guess you get warm a bit quicker, but still,,,,,,,,,,

 

You also now bring up another point. You may be inhibited a bit by swinging indoors. Sometimes it smells like an excuse but still, It's a real thing and it can happen to some players.

 

Your course must be pretty wet though. 2K spin rate should allow your ball to roll out pretty well; unless, I guess, you hit moon balls 260+ and they fall to earth almost vertically.

 

I had that problem once upon a time but I was spinning it darn near 4K. Ball continually ended up right next to its pitch mark. But once I fixed my obvious swing flaw (Thank you Steve) and got the spin down to near 2K, I now get some nice/normal run out even on the softer fairways of SoFla.

 

Good luck. 👍

[Howard_Jones]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:37 PM, Chilidog said:

Hey guys, I want to get some opinions on something. Went for a driver fitting at my local Tour Truck franchise. I know the owner. Not the most trustworthy guy but it is what I have locally. Here is how it went:

 

After warming up with some irons, he came over and inputted into the computer for the GCQuad the word “SIM” which is my current driver. I use a 9* with GD AD-MT S shaft. I hit 10 drives with the following averages:

 

106 clubhead speed. 156 ball speed. 2000 rpms backspin. +8* angle of attack. 287 carry. 296 overall. 
 

With each new club I tried, the fitter would go find it in the computer, click it and click through quickly on color of the results and something else that was quick. He’s obviously done this a million times so he can do it quickly. I changed to a Paradym TD with Ventus blue 6s. 
 

107 clubhead speed. 158 ball speed. 1300 rpms. +8* angle of attack. 312 carry. 321 overall. 
 

Switches me to the Ventus black 7x because my transition from the backswing to the downswing is too fast for the S and 60 gram weight he felt. We also moved to the standard Paradym head as he wanted to get my spin numbers up a little bit as I was hitting the TD all over the map. 
 

108 clubhead. 159 ball speed. 1600 rpms. Same angle of attack. 309 carry. 317 overall. 
 

I won’t bore you with the other clubs but the G430 was just slightly behind this in distance. 
 

That is obviously a huge jump in distance to me for not a lot of gain in clubhead or ball speed. So the question becomes: do you think they juiced the GC Quad with wind or elevation changes already preset for those clubs in their sim?

Those numbers is wrong, thats all i can say, and we need to know launch angle here, thats missing, but no matter launch angle, a ball speed below 160 will NOT move the ball 300 + as carry.

The closest chart i have for ball speed is 165. -
Green fields is maximized carry for that launch angle

Edited April 2, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[Chilidog]

Ok guys, time for some real world numbers based off testing today. Went out this evening around 6:30 after everyone was off the course. I had played 9 holes just previous to testing so was pretty warm. Temp was 77 degrees. I stuck a reflector beside the tee marker so I could accurately laser the distance back. The hole was straight away with a slight uphill towards the green but not reachable from the tee. I hit 10 shots using Prov1X brand new balls with each driver. I marked the Sim shots with a blue dot and the Paradym balls with a red dot. 
 

I ended up taking out 2 SIM balls based off mishits and 1 Paradym. I can’t get a carry distance measurement…only overall. I can say the Paradym launched lower than the SIM by a bit. Here are the results:

 

SIM: Based off 8 shots, my shortest was 277 and my longest was 298. My average was 288. 
 

Paradym: My shortest was 292 and my longest was 317. My average was 303. 
 

The GC Quad may have a flawed algorithm but the results still came out close to the same. I couldn’t get my swing speed but based off the information you guys have given me, I must be swinging faster than what I tested. It was at least good to know that I didn’t waste the money on the Paradym. Now, I have to put it in play in competition and make sure it’s a fairway finder as that’s what is ultimately most important to me. 
 

Thanks again guys and wanted to follow up with you as soon as I got the info. Let me know if you have questions. 

[LukeDonaldsTiger]

Interesting and good job with the reflector, that was a great idea. 
 

Two things: 

1. take photos of the stats whenever your sim session is finished. Takes out the guesswork. 
2. is the Paradym‘s shaft the same length as the SIM‘s?

[Chilidog]

1 minute ago, LukeDonaldsTiger said:

Interesting and good job with the reflector, that was a great idea. 
 

Two things: 

1. take photos of the stats whenever your sim session is finished. Takes out the guesswork. 
2. is the Paradym‘s shaft the same length as the SIM‘s?

Good question on the Paradym. Measuring as we speak…..looks to be roughly the same. Maybe even a 1/4” shorter.