Splitting Up a Foursome due to Slow Pace of Play

[Marcia K]

Most ladies in our league are great golfers and play within the four hours.  It has been said that if we can not see the group in front of us, we must breakup into two twosomes.  What i have found is nothing seems  to change the faster twosome catches the foursome and then waits for the twosome to catch up..  They say it speeds up play. I say it doesn't  Any thoughts?

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

If your foursome is falling behind and cannot catch the group in front of you splitting may be an option as twosomes normally play faster than foursomes. The downside you describe is that once the first twosome catches the group in front it will need to wait. But should it happen so fortunately that the 2nd twosome now catches the 1st twosome you may regroup into the original foursome.

 

"They say it speeds up play." It does for the groups who had to wait for your foursome behind you. And based on what you wrote it seems it has speeded up your play as well.

 

There is of course another option. Do not let the group in front of you disappear but keep it in sight by playing faster as soon as you feel you are falling behind. That is by far the best option.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[ArtMBgolf]

I don't think many golfers have enough experience with the split up, to really 
know how good it works.   If you think about it, it has to help some.   
  
A benefit is that it identifies who the slowpoke is.  Just don't let the suspected 
or obvious slowpoke be in the twosome who goes ahead first.   
     

After a bad hole or lost ball search, everyone in the foursome needs to play faster 
to catch back up.    Groups that fall way behind do not do this.    

      

[Naptime]

I limit my own ball search to one minute unless it's obviously in the close rough and maybe hidden by leaves.  If it's in the woods or tall reeds I won't have a realistic second shot anyway.  If it's likely lost I hit a provisional from the tee and move on.  If my playing partners want to beat the bushes for my ball I just tell them it's lost and my provisional is lying 3 and I'm declaring the first ball lost.  People waste a ton of time looking for balls.  

[Marcia K]

It seems to be a Florida thing.  I have played in many other leagues across the eastern coast and have never seen this before. Example:  You have an ABCD player.  The B players says we must split up, we can't see the group in front. So the AB player tee off and continue their game.  The issue at least with me was, I am already a fast ready golf player (16 HDCP).  So i have now tried to compensate.  My fault.  But now I am holding up play.  Lost ball out of bounds, water.  And still after 2 bad holes.  We come upon the following: 

4 people on the green

4 people in the fairway

the 4 people we needed to catch up and us on the t box.

I was not a happy camper.

When it was our turn to tee off here came the the BC players. 

The BC player were oblivious to why there was any need to catch up and continued to play their game slow.

 

Got to be a better way. Feel better being able to vent.  Guess I need to find away to continue play and not lose my rhythm.   Thank you for all your thoughts on this issue.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Marcia K
clarification

[AzRoger]

30 minutes ago, Marcia K said:

The issue at least with me was, I am already a fast ready golf player (16 HDCP).  So i have now tried to compensate. 

 

That's what usually gets to me when playing with slow players, I speed up my routine to try and compensate and it usually throws my game off. To me when it comes to slow play what's happening behind you should be the driving force if you need to pick up your pace. Are you holding up groups behind you? If not no reason to worry. If groups are waiting behind you and there's a gap in front then your group needs to do something, either start waving the groups behind you through or pick up the pace. Always play ready golf, forget about honors on the tee and who's away.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, AzRoger said:

That's what usually gets to me when playing with slow players, I speed up my routine to try and compensate and it usually throws my game off. To me when it comes to slow play what's happening behind you should be the driving force if you need to pick up your pace. Are you holding up groups behind you? If not no reason to worry. If groups are waiting behind you and there's a gap in front then your group needs to do something, either start waving the groups behind you through or pick up the pace. Always play ready golf, forget about honors on the tee and who's away.

 

THANK YOU !!!

 

Do you realize that me, you, and possibly @Argonne69, are the only 3 players on this entire board that realize think like that ?

 

Almost to a (wo)man, all the others (who comment) think that a group MUST keep pace with the group in front of them.

 

Hard NO. Your group's ONLY responsibility is to NOT hold up players behind you; with the possible exception of late day players needing to get off the course by a time set by the course (not all courses are "open til dusk").

 

Nobody I've seen has yet posted a good enough reason (IMO of course) for why a group MUST "keep up".

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Marcia K said:

It seems to be a Florida thing.  I have played in many other leagues across the eastern coast and have never seen this before. Example:  You have an ABCD player.  The B players says we must split up, we can't see the group in front. So the AB player tee off and continue their game.  The issue at least with me was, I am already a fast ready golf player (16 HDCP).  So i have now tried to compensate.  My fault.  But now I am holding up play.  Lost ball out of bounds, water.  And still after 2 bad holes.  We come upon the following: 

4 people on the green

4 people in the fairway

the 4 people we needed to catch up and us on the t box.

I was not a happy camper.

When it was our turn to tee off here came the the BC players. 

The BC player were oblivious to why there was any need to catch up and continued to play their game slow.

 

Got to be a better way. Feel better being able to vent.  Guess I need to find away to continue play and not lose my rhythm.   Thank you for all your thoughts on this issue.

 

 

So much to really unpack here.

 

It sure is annoying for one player to try to make up time because someone else is playing slower than necessary.

 

There should be a course given on all the things one can do to keep the pace going. e.g., one takes what, 3-7 seconds to put on a glove before hitting their tee shot. Unless he's first to hit that's serial/wasted time. The other 3 can put on their gloves (& to be fair often do) while the first guy is hitting ("parallel" time).

 

If one is in the first cart to reach the tee & instead of jumping out, pulling the driver, and striding right to the tee, the driver records the 4 scores from the previous hole - that's another 5-10 seconds gone/wasted.

 

True, these sound like small things (and they are), but cutting out as much of the the wasted time as possible can certainly help.

 

5 seconds x 4 players x 4 shots (per hole) x 18 = 1440 seconds = 24 minutes. And that's 4 golfers shooting 72. LOL Now I don't really expect everybody to DO that all the time, but there's a fair bit of "lost" time that can easily be recouped.

 

Moral of the story is just be ready to go when it's your turn. And play "ready golf". I can't tell you how many times we've "announced" "ready golf" in our 4-some and there are still players 5 yards closer away, who is READY to hit, who simply will not hit  while the player further away is fumbling for his glove or still scoping his shot. Just say "I'm ready". The closer guy will wait (and likely be happy for not being "rushed").

 

THEN, you touch on my incredibly obvious (to me anyway) #1 major pet peeve.

 

While there are, of course, exceptions, due to 4 amateurs playing golf, every golf course I play has certain parts of the course where the course separates groups and brings them back together. It is UNAVOIDABLE and it happens in (mostly) the SAME PLACES every round.

 

I play in a game on Tuesdays, run by the course pro no less. He's always on our butts about playing faster and finishing in 4 hours. We typically (all) finish in 4:15. He hasn't really complained as the snowbirds are beginning to go back home.

 

The golf course backs up and spreads apart in the SAME places every week. Really difficult holes followed by really easy holes (or vice versa), drive-able par 4s, short par 5s. Shorter and longer par 3s.

 

They all combine to pull groups apart and bring them back together again. Almost always in the SAME places.

 

Want the course to play with groups as perfectly spaced as possible ? Sure. Make all holes the same length, same par, no trees, no water, no bunkers, and flat greens. Oh, and make them indoors so there's no wind nor rain. Then you've got a chance ?

 

One problem ? Sure. NOBODY would play.

 

I sent the pro the article linked below (which somebody linked to here on WRX) and asked, via email, that he read it. His response "Exactly, I personally don't care about the time. If you stay within the proper distance from the group in front of you. That is all you can do. The problem happens when you get to a tee box and the green is clear. Then you are behind period. The group in front of you should be putting out or walking off the green when you arrive to hit your approach shot into that green."

 

LMAO. Obviously he didn't read the article through. This (his answer) brings up my 2nd major pet peeve - people simply can't be bothered actually reading; or at least reading something all the way through. Like this post.

 

He was reacting to the initial part of the article, "pretending" to be offended by slow play, rather than reading it all the way through - the author was being sarcastic in the beginning. He should have gotten that from the TITLE. He obviously didn't read it through.

 

4 Hour Round is BS

 

And (pet peeve #3), the rangers on some of these courses often sit in the middle of the EASY hole following the very difficult one. And then tell the oncoming group, now "behind", "The previous group's off the green already. You'll have to pick up the pace."

 

Ironically, in the specific instance I'm referring to, that easy hole, where the group has just been told to "pick up the pace", is right before a very short, reachable, for many in 2, par 5, where the same group he just old to pick up the pace, will now be waiting to hit their 3rd, or even 2nd, shots into that par 5.

 

Almost without fail, EVERY GROUP "falls behind" in that same place and catches up on the next hole.

 

Thank you for letting me vent. Oh, and welcome to WRX. 👍

Edited April 1, 2023 by nsxguy

[Greenie]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

THANK YOU !!!

 

Do you realize that me, you, and possibly @Argonne69, are the only 3 players on this entire board that realize think like that ?

 

Almost to a (wo)man, all the others (who comment) think that a group MUST keep pace with the group in front of them.

 

Hard NO. Your group's ONLY responsibility is to NOT hold up players behind you; with the possible exception of late day players needing to get off the course by a time set by the course (not all courses are "open til dusk").

 

Nobody I've seen has yet posted a good enough reason (IMO of course) for why a group MUST "keep up".

 

You can add me to this way of thinking too. My foursome are fairly fast players. I really want to say efficient players making us appear fast. It is seldom that a foursome ahead of us creates space between us. It does happen sometimes. I'm never concerned if they do because we usually create space behind us at the same time. The only time I am concerned is if we are holding up the group behind us.

 

I've never understood a ranger that will come up to us and says we need to pick up the pace because there is a gap ahead of us when there is also a gap behind us. I always say there is no one waiting behind us. The ranger will say I told them to pick up the pace too. I really find this funny when the group ahead of us may have teed off 20-30 mins earlier than us and we just happened to be the next group to go out and of course there is space between us.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Greenie

[Augster]

16 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

THANK YOU !!!

 

Do you realize that me, you, and possibly @Argonne69, are the only 3 players on this entire board that realize think like that ?

 

Almost to a (wo)man, all the others (who comment) think that a group MUST keep pace with the group in front of them.

 

Hard NO. Your group's ONLY responsibility is to NOT hold up players behind you; with the possible exception of late day players needing to get off the course by a time set by the course (not all courses are "open til dusk").

 

Nobody I've seen has yet posted a good enough reason (IMO of course) for why a group MUST "keep up".

The ONLY good reason I can come up with for keeping pace with the group ahead is when playing in a multiple group event or daily skins. 
 

If we have 2 groups in our skins game and the first group goes out with nobody ahead of them and plays in 3 hours, and our second group follows behind and plays in 4 hours, the other group has to wait an HOUR in the clubhouse to do the payouts. It’s really inconsiderate as the second group never had to wait on a shot besides their first tee ball. The second group never held anyone up, and played to their “4 hour pace”, but they are still A-holes for playing that slow on an empty course. 
 

The other situation is our men’s events. Everyone goes off in 8 minute increments. If all the other groups play in 4 hours, but the last group, with nobody behind them ever, plays in 4:45, the committee has to sit there for an extra 45 minutes waiting for these clowns’ scorecards to determine all the winners and payouts. 
 

While I completely agree that if you’re just out in one foursome, and you lose the group ahead but are never pushed from behind, play whatever pace you’d like. We call it “country-clubbing it” when there is nobody ahead or behind. Just out in space. 
 

But even that can get annoying when one player deliberately keeps you at the slow pace. Out in space and we could finish in 3:20 but this guy always plays 4 hours. Never wait, never holding anyone up, 4 hours is a ridiculously long round for most courses. 

[Naptime]

I haven't played a round longer than 3:45 this year.  And when we are a twosome we aim for 3 hrs max. We play better when we aren't waiting around and losing our rhythm.  Slowpokes don't get invited back even if they are friends, unless they are willing to accept some prodding. "You're shooting 120, quit dawdling."  We avoid some courses that are notoriously backed up.

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

The ONLY good reason I can come up with for keeping pace with the group ahead is when playing in a multiple group event or daily skins. 
 

If we have 2 groups in our skins game and the first group goes out with nobody ahead of them and plays in 3 hours, and our second group follows behind and plays in 4 hours, the other group has to wait an HOUR in the clubhouse to do the payouts. It’s really inconsiderate as the second group never had to wait on a shot besides their first tee ball. The second group never held anyone up, and played to their “4 hour pace”, but they are still A-holes for playing that slow on an empty course. 
 

The other situation is our men’s events. Everyone goes off in 8 minute increments. If all the other groups play in 4 hours, but the last group, with nobody behind them ever, plays in 4:45, the committee has to sit there for an extra 45 minutes waiting for these clowns’ scorecards to determine all the winners and payouts. 
 

While I completely agree that if you’re just out in one foursome, and you lose the group ahead but are never pushed from behind, play whatever pace you’d like. We call it “country-clubbing it” when there is nobody ahead or behind. Just out in space. 
 

But even that can get annoying when one player deliberately keeps you at the slow pace. Out in space and we could finish in 3:20 but this guy always plays 4 hours. Never wait, never holding anyone up, 4 hours is a ridiculously long round for most courses. 

 

Totally understand, and agree, about others in a comp/group having to wait around. Been there, done that, many times.

 

Following groups should be no more than a shot behind. 1 shot, even a bit more, can happen pretty easily, especially if the course ends on a reachable par 5. But 45 minutes behind is almost 4 holes behind and clearly way too much.

 

That said, I'm sorry, but I can't get behind "4 hours is a ridiculously long round". I would think 90% of this forum would be perfectly fine with a 4 hour round, especially if the course was crowded. Now, course "wide open" ? Not so much.

 

And to a large degree, it matters where you're coming from. 4 hours would've been a ridiculously fast pace at the muni I played at in NYC for so many Sundays over many years.

 

Likely the 1st 4-5 groups on a weekend day played in 3:30-4, but after that ? We were lucky to do 4.5 hours starting in hour 2-3 of the day. Sometimes "thankful" to get in under 5.

[Carl Spackler3]

I will never tire of giving the solution, as it is easy and 100% effective. Slow play requires 1 warning, then a 1 hole observation by staff, then simple direction  to pick up your ball(s) in play , bypass the open area and drop the appropriate distance behind the group in front. Even if this means bypassing the next green or tee box. 

[Socrates]

Back to the original question... If you have two -2-somes that were joined together and one is slow/bad to the point where the group has bad feelings going on between them, it is sometimes necessary to split them up to avoid a confrontation between the two.  It may not speed up the overall play, but now you only have one issue to deal with.  

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:51 PM, nsxguy said:

 

THANK YOU !!!

 

Do you realize that me, you, and possibly @Argonne69, are the only 3 players on this entire board that realize think like that ?

 

Almost to a (wo)man, all the others (who comment) think that a group MUST keep pace with the group in front of them.

 

Hard NO. Your group's ONLY responsibility is to NOT hold up players behind you; with the possible exception of late day players needing to get off the course by a time set by the course (not all courses are "open til dusk").

 

Nobody I've seen has yet posted a good enough reason (IMO of course) for why a group MUST "keep up".

 

Yesterday we had our spring session of referees of national level and monitoring pace of play was (of course) one of the issues we discussed. The guideline to any group is to keep up with the group in front. This is how it has been and this is how it is supposed to be, and there are very good reasons why.

 

So, a hard NO to your thinking.

[Naptime]

If a group doesn't keep up, sooner or later they will find another group on their heels.  In my experience they don't suddenly figure out oh we should be playing quicker.  They keep taking their sweet time because they are in that rhythm.  We have a couple friends who are like "I'm just having a good time, I'll hit another."  We rev the cart and basically say get your tail in the cart.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Naptime

[RacineBoxer]

11 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yesterday we had our spring session of referees of national level and monitoring pace of play was (of course) one of the issues we discussed. The guideline to any group is to keep up with the group in front. This is how it has been and this is how it is supposed to be, and there are very good reasons why.

 

So, a hard NO to your thinking.

 

Let's say the course has a stated pace of play of 4:15. You show up for your 1:00 tee time on a weekday and it's not full at all. There's a two some teeing off right before you. Within a couple holes it's clear they are just flying. They probably play their round in 3:15. You come in around 4:00-4:15 but by the end they were 3 holes ahead of you. You never had a group on your heels all day. Is that a problem? 

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, RacineBoxer said:

 

Let's say the course has a stated pace of play of 4:15. You show up for your 1:00 tee time on a weekday and it's not full at all. There's a two some teeing off right before you. Within a couple holes it's clear they are just flying. They probably play their round in 3:15. You come in around 4:00-4:15 but by the end they were 3 holes ahead of you. You never had a group on your heels all day. Is that a problem? 

 

No.

 

Why should it be? If the course is not full and nobody is delaying anybody who cares what an individual group does?

 

BUT, when the course is full it just might make a difference.

 

Btw, what does "stated pace of play" has to do with anything? If you are dealying a group behind you it is your obligation either pick up your speed or let the group behind to play through. Or are you seriously suggesting that if I am playing at a "stated pace of play" and there are several holes empty before me and there is a faster group coming behind I would not have to let them play through..?

[rogolf]

The "stated pace of play" was originally implemented by golf clubs as an attempt to speed up play.  It was originally intended as the maximum time any round should take - the average round would be less than that time.  However, it is now used by players to justify slow play - they say that they are right on pace to finish at the "stated pace of play".  Golf club staff also use it as justification for doing nothing about slower play, ie, the "stated pace of play" has gone from the originally intended maximum time to the average time.

Edited April 3, 2023 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

16 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The "stated pace of play" was originally implemented by golf clubs as an attempt to speed up play.  It was originally intended as the maximum time any round should take - the average round would be less than that time.  However, it is now used by players to justify slow play - they say that they are right on pace to finish at the "stated pace of play".  Golf club staff also use it as justification for doing nothing about slower play, ie, the "stated pace of play" has gone from the originally intended maximum time to the average time.

 

Exactly. Those "standard times" etc should be forbidden by law.

[RacineBoxer]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No.

 

Why should it be? If the course is not full and nobody is delaying anybody who cares what an individual group does?

 

BUT, when the course is full it just might make a difference.

 

Btw, what does "stated pace of play" has to do with anything? If you are dealying a group behind you it is your obligation either pick up your speed or let the group behind to play through. Or are you seriously suggesting that if I am playing at a "stated pace of play" and there are several holes empty before me and there is a faster group coming behind I would not have to let them play through..?

 

It seemed you presented a very absolutist position, that being, thou must keep up with the group in front of them no matter what. The poster you quoted even acknowledged above that you shouldn't have anyone waiting behind you. I was just seeing how much of an absolute your strong stance was. That's all. No one said its OK to have a group waiting behind you. 

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, RacineBoxer said:

 

It seemed you presented a very absolutist position, that being, thou must keep up with the group in front of them no matter what. The poster you quoted even acknowledged above that you shouldn't have anyone waiting behind you. I was just seeing how much of an absolute your strong stance was. That's all. No one said its OK to have a group waiting behind you. 

 

Let me explain why I said a hard No to nsxguy.

 

Stroke play competition (this applies to recreational golf also if there is a marshall around). Group A has fallen behind regarding the group in front of them. Group B behind A has fallen behind group A. Referee (or marshall) comes to group A and tells the players to speed up as they have fallen behind. This is the conversation:

 

Ref: You need to pick up speed.

Group A: We are not holding anybody back so why should we?

Ref: There are several groups behind the group behind you (group B) that are waiting because group B is slow. I am going to see that the group B picks up speed and that means they will catch you and then YOU need to pick up speed as YOU will be the group holding all the others back. So you pick up speed NOW. Got it?

 

Get the picture?

 

Oh, one more thing. Once people get the idea it is not necessary to keep up with the group in front of them in CERTAIN situations they will omit the certain and only maintain "not necessary". The less people need to think the better they will handle pace of play. So, just keep up with the group in front of you, if you cannot, invite the group to play through. It is not more difficult than that.

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[RacineBoxer]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

Get the picture?

 

I don't disagree with the situation you described.  

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, RacineBoxer said:

 

I don't disagree with the situation you described.  

 

Good.

 

Because in every single competition I have that same discussion as the players are not interested in what happens around them and they normally have no idea what happens a few groups behind them. That is perfectly understandable but the arguments they present to us referees have no bearing as they just do not see the big picture.

[larrybud]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:38 AM, Marcia K said:

Most ladies in our league are great golfers and play within the four hours.  It has been said that if we can not see the group in front of us, we must breakup into two twosomes.  What i have found is nothing seems  to change the faster twosome catches the foursome and then waits for the twosome to catch up..  They say it speeds up play. I say it doesn't  Any thoughts?

 

 

 

I can't see how a two playing would be as slow or slower as the foursome that you had 2 minutes ago.

 

I solved slow play in my league. In my league I have two criteria. I tee off first and I log finish times. "Finish time" is when you return the card to me. Everybody's scorecard has their "end time" on them.

 

Finish in 2:20 (official PoP is 2:15 by the course, but I allow 5 min to return the card to me), or finish with 15 min of the group in front of you.

 

If you fail to do one of those two things, you get a "ding". (i.e. warning). 

Two dings in a row and you're a ding-dong, and you're teeing off last the following week.

 

This has done a couple of things. First, since the time is objective, peer pressure is great. When you get a "ding" other players harass you at the clubhouse. To me, this is a good thing. As the league admin, it's really taken out the need for me to say anything. "Love" is spread around. lol

 

Two, in the 2 years I've been doing this, I've yet to have to penalize anyone, although we've had the occasional "ding" by two or three groups. We used to have groups who would be 30 min behind the group in front. This has completely disappeared.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by larrybud

[RacineBoxer]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Good.

 

Because in every single competition I have that same discussion as the players are not interested in what happens around them and they normally have no idea what happens a few groups behind them. That is perfectly understandable but the arguments they present to us referees have no bearing as they just do not see the big picture.

 

People should expect that in competitions. I didn't see references to competitions/tournaments above and was genuinely curious if your position was the same if the course was wide open. 

[Mr. Bean]

7 minutes ago, RacineBoxer said:

 

People should expect that in competitions. I didn't see references to competitions/tournaments above and was genuinely curious if your position was the same if the course was wide open. 

 

Of course it is not but the message @nsxguy was sending was that the group should be only concerned of not holding back the group behind them. To a certaing point that is true but as a group does not necessarily know (or is interested in...) what is happening behind they should only concentrate in the group in front of them and to keep up with them. As a general principle. 

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yesterday we had our spring session of referees of national level and monitoring pace of play was (of course) one of the issues we discussed. The guideline to any group is to keep up with the group in front. This is how it has been and this is how it is supposed to be, and there are very good reasons why.

 

So, a hard NO to your thinking.

 

I expect a referee and his association to have different expectations when they are,,,,,,, refereeing. So frankly, your guideline within the context of refereeing means nothing to me.

 

If I DO play in a competition with referees, I will be sure to ask about POP and the refs.

 

You will recall this forum is Rules of Golf AND Etiquette. I'll grant you the title isn't as clear as it could be; i.e. Is the "etiquette" referring to etiquette within the RULES ? Or simply the etiquette in playing the game ? IDK

 

Anyway, the VAST majority of rounds, at least here in the U.S., do NOT have referees involved. The etiquette of pace of play, the subject of my post semi-rant, since it seems it wasn't obvious to you, was/is intended for this form of play; that is, without referees.

 

MY specific pov is basically "no harm, no foul". Excepting for getting done by the time the course wants everybody OFF the course, I can't see ANY "harm" in my pov. Not to the POP, not to the course, not even to the bottom line $$$ for the course.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

MY specific pov is basically "no harm, no foul".

 

I can go along that, no problem. Then again, my point was that a group may not know if their PoP may be a problem later on during the round. Tha is why they SHOULD keep up with the group in front of them.

 

I am sure we are done with this now as there will be no winners.

[st1800e]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I am sure we are done with this now as there will be no winners.

Best advice I’ve heard, “Your position should be immediately behind the group in front, not immediately in front of the group behind.” 
 

Amen. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by st1800e