Ball believed to be lost in a hazard. Continued play as lateral. Found ball after hole. What to do?

[betarhoalphadelta]

My son was out playing yesterday. The 16th hole is a par 3 with a creek to the left. The "creek" is actually more of a concrete runoff ditch from a reservoir lake across the road at the top of the property, so with decent water speed it's common that if your ball ends up there, it can be carried a LONG way away before you can get to the creek. So if you believe it's in the creek, you don't actually have high confidence of seeing a ball down at the bottom. And if the ball one-hops or rolls in, the water level is 2 feet below grade, so you wouldn't see a splash. 

 

He hit his tee shot to the left, believing it to be in the creek. Got up there, couldn't find it (did not exhaust 3 minutes search time to keep up PoP). Believing it to be in a lateral hazard, he took one stroke penalty and dropped at the point he believed the ball to have crossed, continued the hole, and made double. After that, while walking back from the green towards 17, finds his ball. 

 

Not believing he should play his original ball, he continued on to 17. But what is the *official* ruling?

 

[Schulzmc]

The key here is was it “known or virtually certain” he was in the penalty area. If he believed that to be the case (even if later he was proven wrong) then he proceeded properly and once he put a new ball in play his original ball must not be played even if it is found later. (See rule 17.1(c))

 

But… if he was unsure whether the ball was in the penalty area he cannot just assume it is and must play the ball as lost. That would have been stroke and distance (unless the local rule is in place). In this case he did not do that so I believe he gets the general penalty (two strokes).

 

EDIT: I should have added if the local rule was in place (which allows a drop where the ball is likely to be lost) he would have taken a two stroke penalty and not a one stroke penalty.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Schulzmc

[betarhoalphadelta]

Yeah, and a little more about the design of the hole.

 

Hard to see in the below picture, but the green and left bunker is elevated compared to the creek, and then there's a pretty decent grade downslope to the creek. The rough in between can sometimes get a LITTLE hairy, but we're not talking crazy rough--this is a pretty benign muni. The trees to the left don't impede visibility to the landing area very much, so it's quite common to at least see the first bounce of the ball. 

 

When I go left on this hole, if I don't see exactly where the ball ended up, I generally know within a pretty tight range where to find it, and if it's not there, don't spend a lot of time looking either, because the slope feeds into the creek. But I also use pretty high visibility yellow golf balls, so they're REALLY hard to miss. 

 

I did find this: https://www.golfmonthly.com/videos/rules/known-or-virtually-certain-explained-rules-of-golf

 

Quote

 

Virtually certain means that you're 95% sure what happened to your ball.

 

That is obviously difficult to define but, for example, if you saw your ball land short of the water and you can't see it, you can be virtually certain that it went into the penalty area and proceed under those rules.

 

 

If you hit the ball into thick rough near a penalty area, you can't be 95% virtually certain that it made its way into the penalty area and you would have to presume that the ball was lost and go back to where you played your original shot from.

 

 

I generally wouldn't consider the area to be "thick" rough. But it definitely is rough. 

 

[davep043]

Depending on the terrain and the height of the grass, the KVC standard can be met under the "no place else it could be" standard.  IF you consider all available information, and the only place it might realistically not be found is in the Penalty Area, you have KVC, and you may take Penalty Area relief.  That's  not quite the way the Rules state it, you need to be 95% confident the ball is in the PA, after considering all available information.

[rogolf]

21 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Depending on the terrain and the height of the grass, the KVC standard can be met under the "no place else it could be" standard.  IF you consider all available information, and the only place it might realistically not be found is in the Penalty Area, you have KVC, and you may take Penalty Area relief.  That's  not quite the way the Rules state it, you need to be 95% confident the ball is in the PA, after considering all available information.

Giving "95% certain" some perspective, it means that the correct decision was made 19 times out of 20.  It's a high bar on purpose.

[llewol007]

If you holes out, then it is done. Even if you find it on the next hole or soon after. Once you take your provo and hit your shot, you essentially give up on the ball.

[nsxguy]

55 minutes ago, llewol007 said:

If you holes out, then it is done. Even if you find it on the next hole or soon after. Once you take your provo and hit your shot, you essentially give up on the ball.

 

There was NO provisional.

 

Given the circumstances as described it was totally reasonable to have KVC the ball was in the penalty area.

 

And once the ball was dropped under PA relief it became the ball in play and the original became irrelevant, found or not.

[llewol007]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

There was NO provisional.

 

Given the circumstances as described it was totally reasonable to have KVC the ball was in the penalty area.

 

And once the ball was dropped under PA relief it became the ball in play and the original became irrelevant, found or not.

Just speaking of what I usually would do. Your statement is correct.

Edited April 24, 2023 by llewol007

[davep043]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

Giving "95% certain" some perspective, it means that the correct decision was made 19 times out of 20.  It's a high bar on purpose.

Agree completely.  But I think its important to say that its possible to get to that level of certainty without actually watching the ball roll into the Penalty Area.  You have to assess all of the potential "hiding places", along with what you saw the ball doing, all of the reasonably available information, and make the decision.  I've seen other posts in various rules forums that claim if you're not 100% certain, you must take stroke and distance, and those folks just aren't right.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, llewol007 said:

Just speaking of what I usually would do. Your statement is correct.

 

Note (parts of) dave's post right below yours.

 

You can hit your provisional if the ball might be lost or OB outside of a penalty area. That's a pretty low bar but given the description by the OP, I'm not sure if that could be the case.

 

e.g. they knew the course. If, as soon as the ball disappears, and they know it's nothing but concrete down to the water, it's not reasonable to think it might be lost rather than in the PA; so, no provisional.

 

OTOH, if there is heavy rough, bushes, etc. between where the ball disappeared and the PA, it might be lost outside the PA and a provisional is then permissible. 👍

 

18.3(a) "If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 14.6)."

[llewol007]

What he perceives might have happened to the ball, and if his playing partners agree than he played it correctly with the one stroke penalty and a drop ball. Once he hit second ball and holed out, the other ball is considered not in play even if he finds it.

[davep043]

1 minute ago, llewol007 said:

What he perceives might have happened to the ball, and if his playing partners agree than he played it correctly with the one stroke penalty and a drop ball. Once he hit second ball and holed out, the other ball is considered not in play even if he finds it.

Once he substituted a ball with the intent for it to be in play (when he dropped it), the original ball becomes a Wrong Ball.  If he did not have KVC, he dropped the ball in a Wrong Place, potentially a Serious Breach, which must be corrected before he makes a stroke on the next hole.  The playing partners agreement has nothing to do with it, he has to get it correct, even if they disagree.  That's different in match play, if you and your Opponent agree to something, that agreement stands, as long as you're not intentionally ignoring a rule.  From all of the descriptions, he did play it correctly.

[llewol007]

5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Once he substituted a ball with the intent for it to be in play (when he dropped it), the original ball becomes a Wrong Ball.  If he did not have KVC, he dropped the ball in a Wrong Place, potentially a Serious Breach, which must be corrected before he makes a stroke on the next hole.  The playing partners agreement has nothing to do with it, he has to get it correct, even if they disagree.  That's different in match play, if you and your Opponent agree to something, that agreement stands, as long as you're not intentionally ignoring a rule.  From all of the descriptions, he did play it correctly.

But the player believed it to have gone into the lateral hazard and proceeded to play it as such. Not sure what the issue is. We were not there and the player took the penalty as he should have. If the playing group agrees to the correct call than he is good with how he played it. 

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, llewol007 said:

If the playing group agrees to the correct call than he is good with how he played it. 

 

This is the second time you've posted such rubbish. Get a grip . . . except in match play, "groups" do not "vote" on the Rules.

[llewol007]

11 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

This is the second time you've posted such rubbish. Get a grip . . . except in match play, "groups" do not "vote" on the Rules.

😂😂😂 Okay so the player made the call so now what. Are we stuck on what he did. Not sure

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, llewol007 said:

😂😂😂 Okay so the player made the call so now what. Are we stuck on what he did. Not sure

 

Nobody is stuck on what he did. He proceeded correctly according to everything he told us.

 

If YOU were playing and had no idea of what was out there when you saw the ball disappear you could have hit your provisional.

 

But under the OP, knowing the ball was 95% (sounds more like 100% thought) likely in the PA, he correctly did NOT hit a provisional and just walked out there, hoping the ball may have been somewhere where he could hit it and, if not, knowing it was a PA penalty drop.

 

There is/was no issue until YOU brought in the provisional ball - and things progressed again from there.

 

Then you started with "if the group agrees,,,,,,,,", which I'm not surprised raised some ire.

 

Between dave and I, you were given all the correct situations/options.

 

We good now ?

[llewol007]

8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Nobody is stuck on what he did. He proceeded correctly according to everything he told us.

 

If YOU were playing and had no idea of what was out there when you saw the ball disappear you could have hit your provisional.

 

But under the OP, knowing the ball was 95% (sounds more like 100% thought) likely in the PA, he correctly did NOT hit a provisional and just walked out there, hoping the ball may have been somewhere where he could hit it and, if not, knowing it was a PA penalty drop.

 

There is/was no issue until YOU brought in the provisional ball - and things progressed again from there.

 

Then you started with "if the group agrees,,,,,,,,", which I'm not surprised raised some ire.

 

Between dave and I, you were given all the correct situations/options.

 

We good now ?

Sorry about the mistake gents, I’m pretty sure I would have made the correct call playing this game long enough. Just funny how one simple error gets players riled up. Like to light the fire since it’s to easy.

[golfer07840]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

Depending on the terrain and the height of the grass, the KVC standard can be met under the "no place else it could be" standard.  IF you consider all available information, and the only place it might realistically not be found is in the Penalty Area, you have KVC, and you may take Penalty Area relief.  That's  not quite the way the Rules state it, you need to be 95% confident the ball is in the PA, after considering all available information.

*Raises hand* 

 

What does KVC mean? I apologize in advance for the dumb question. 

[st1800e]

6 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

*Raises hand* 

 

What does KVC mean? I apologize in advance for the dumb question. 

Known or virtually certain.  

[golfer07840]

46 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Known or virtually certain.  

Thank you..

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, llewol007 said:

Sorry about the mistake gents, I’m pretty sure I would have made the correct call playing this game long enough. Just funny how one simple error gets players riled up. Like to light the fire since it’s to easy.

 

It's not a big deal but how would you have made the right call ? In the same circumstances you said you'd hit a provisional,,,,,,, which wouldn't have been allowed. Or were you just joshin' us ? Sounds like you're saying you were ("Like to light the fire since it's to (sic) easy"). So you were trolling us ?

 

Sounds like you feels strongly both ways.

 

Anyway, what you need to understand is this forum is about the Rules of Golf. If it was "General Golf Talk" or elsewhere, it's very possible no one that frequents the Rules Forum would've even seen it and others may have said "Not sure but,,,,,,,"

 

Wanna hear about 1 simple error ? A short time ago (last weekend ?) a Korn Ferry Tour player, needing to make the cut to guarantee himself more chances on the KFT, playing the back 9 first, finished his 1st nine.

 

While his 3-some was going through the tunnel and walking towards the 1st tee (his 10th), a volunteer, driving a large golf cart, was in the tunnel.

 

Player asked if the guy was shuttling to the 1st tee. Guy said "Yes" and the 3 players hopped in.

 

They got the bad news a few holes later and all 3 got hit with 2 shots. The player in question missed the cut by a single shot. It'll be a long season for him,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Now, before complaining about it and saying it was the volunteer's fault, know the restriction on players riding carts during the round (with the exception of being driven back for a stroke and distance situation and/or an emergency situation), are never allowed to ride in a cart. AND it was spelled out in the conditions of the competition in the Tourney Rules that every player got a copy of.

 

i.e. he shoulda known better.

[llewol007]

So what do you want the player to do now, he made the wrong call but it sounds like the whole Pace of play and not wanting to go back to the tee to retee which would have been the correct move didn’t happen. We know what he should have done, heck probably the dad or whoever was playing with him should have known what to do but it’s obvious they didn’t want to go back to the tee because of POP. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by llewol007

[Newby]

2 hours ago, llewol007 said:

So what do you want the player to do now, he made the wrong call but it sounds like the whole Pace of play and not wanting to go back to the tee to retee which would have been the correct move didn’t happen. We know what he should have done, heck probably the dad or whoever was playing with him should have known what to do but it’s obvious they didn’t want to go back to the tee because of POP. 

Why should he have gone back to the tee? What was his wrong call?

[Newby]

3 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

*Raises hand* 

 

What does KVC mean? I apologize in advance for the dumb question. 

Known or Virtually Certain

The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.

Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that either:

• There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or

• Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened.

“All reasonably available information” includes all information the player knows and all other information they can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonable delay.

When searching for a ball, only information discovered within the three-minute search time is considered when determining whether knowledge or virtual certainty exists.

[hammersia]

If he found it on the way back, it was on the other side of the creek, ie a big pull, therefore it easily passes the KVC test. 

 

Columbo me. 

[llewol007]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Why should he have gone back to the tee? What was his wrong call?

Not even sure anymore. We have story telling and I fell asleep. Based on the OP’s accounts, the player made his best judgment call and played it to what he deemed correct and took the penalty and holed out so him finding his original ball is mute. This whole thing of putting ideas out there specially when it is a “rules forum” is good dialogue for those who don’t know. Not a point to where a another member decides he needs to defend what the forum is about. Makes for a horrible experience of future members posting and getting attacked. Keep it light. Not here to ruffle the rule book. 

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, davep043 said:

Once he substituted a ball with the intent for it to be in play (when he dropped it), the original ball becomes a Wrong Ball.  If he did not have KVC, he dropped the ball in a Wrong Place, potentially a Serious Breach, which must be corrected before he makes a stroke on the next hole.  The playing partners agreement has nothing to do with it, he has to get it correct, even if they disagree.  That's different in match play, if you and your Opponent agree to something, that agreement stands, as long as you're not intentionally ignoring a rule.  From all of the descriptions, he did play it correctly.

 

I would be a bit careful with the bolded statement. The opinions of the other players are part of the "all available information" which a referee would base their decisions on, then why not a player as well?

 

Let me put this into figures. There are 20 persons watching a ball fly. Only one of them (= the player) says the ball ended up in a pond while 19 of them (KVC) say it bounced out and ended up in the thick bush behind the pond. Which route should the player take, his or theirs?

[davep043]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I would be a bit careful with the bolded statement. The opinions of the other players are part of the "all available information" which a referee would base their decisions on, then why not a player as well?

 

Let me put this into figures. There are 20 persons watching a ball fly. Only one of them (= the player) says the ball ended up in a pond while 19 of them (KVC) say it bounced out and ended up in the thick bush behind the pond. Which route should the player take, his or theirs?

You're right, of course. If you were to look back at my post previous to the one you quoted, I mentioned that some players believe you must be 100% certain the ball is in the PA to get PA relief, which isn't correct.  There are times where players might agree on facts, but disagree on what the Rules allow or require.  In those situations, its important to get the Rule right.

[Schulzmc]

10 hours ago, davep043 said:

If he did not have KVC, he dropped the ball in a Wrong Place, potentially a Serious Breach, which must be corrected before he makes a stroke on the next hole. 

 

In an effort to learn the rules better, I have a couple questions about this statement. 

 

Let’s assume that he did NOT have KVC that the ball was in the hazard and that he should have played the ball as lost - but not knowing this he proceeded as he did, lateral drop and a one shot penalty. (I agree that he in fact DID proceed properly in “real life.”) He has played in a Wrong Place. I see two possible outcomes:

 

1. This is deemed to NOT be a Serious Breach. In this case he completes the hole without correcting his error and is given the General Penalty (two strokes).

2. This is deemed to be a Serious Breach. Since he did not correct it before playing the next hole he is disqualified.

3. The standard for deciding if this was a Serious Breach is not his knowledge or ignorance of the rules, but rather if he gained a significant advantage by his error.

 

So here are my questions:

 

1. Are my three statements above correct in and of themselves?

2. By playing his ball at the point he did and not going back to the tee he gained a significant advantage, making this a Serious Breach and therefore he should have been DQ’d, correct?

 

I’m basing this on the relevant section of 14.7(b) btw

[Schulzmc]

4 hours ago, llewol007 said:

Based on the OP’s accounts, the player made his best judgment call and played it to what he deemed correct and took the penalty and holed out so him finding his original ball is mute.

If you are going to troll us at least use the right word. That would be “moot” (not “mute”).