Situationals: driver vs 3W off the tee

[RoyalMustang]

Watching golf recently, I noticed a lot more 3W tee usage than I would have expected, given how good the pros are off the tee. What are the reasons behind this, aside from the obvious (hazard at 315 yards)? Is this something that we amateurs can incorporate? I probably lose 30 yards from driver to 3W on average, but gain control. 

 

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

As you mentioned, Pros are avoiding hazards it would appear.  Know your distances and plan accordingly....unless you're like a pro and can hit a 3W 275, then might need to drop down to a hybrid.

[AP76]

A lot of them hit 3 wood if they need to shape the shot as it's easier to manipulate.

[me05501]

5 minutes ago, AP76 said:

A lot of them hit 3 wood if they need to shape the shot as it's easier to manipulate.

 

Yes. And a lot of players set up their driver to favor a fade and their three wood to favor a draw. 

[Pepperturbo]

Pros can hit their 3wd nearly as far as their Driver, the difference is 3wd has little run out.  Thinking it's a good idea to model what the Pros do with any club is a monumental error in judgment.

 

If there's a hazard down range that driver can reach, use 3wd.  The other reason their Driver can be Willie Nellie, while 3wd is more controllable.  Yep, a great many tour guys can hit it far, but they have little control over direction of the ball; maybe reason tournament rough is NOT rough. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[Phabs]

Played a course this morning and hit two drivers all day.  All three woods and two irons on everything else .  Do the math from the tee based off your distances to leave you a full comfortable club in,  I played to 150 yards all day long and had full wedges into nearly every single hole. 

[ECgolf]

For amateurs the other reasons I use 3 wood off the tee (besides hazard) are: fat part of fairway is distance my 3 wood goes and narrower landing area where driver lands/rolls to; dogleg where 3 wood gets me to good spot but driver would roll through unless I can shape it around corner (which I typically don’t have confidence I can); 3 wood gets me a full wedge shot I like on shorter par 4 rather than awkward 70-50 yards in that I struggle with; trouble (for me often off to the right) that a poor driver swing will end up in, but same poor 3wood swing will stay in play simply because it doesn’t fly as far - there are two holes at the courses I normally play where this is true and I score better when using 3 wood because no penalties. I suspect pros have some different reasons, but those are mine. 

[golfinbrad]

There are several factors.  Yes, hazards are one.  The shape of the hole is another.  Easier to draw a 3 wood than a driver.  Considering today's Pros are hitting a 7 iron 180+, as long as they get to the 200 yard mark they are good.  Firmness of the fairways and wind also play a part.  

[RoyalMustang]

 

11 minutes ago, golfinbrad said:

There are several factors.  Yes, hazards are one.  The shape of the hole is another.  Easier to draw a 3 wood than a driver.  Considering today's Pros are hitting a 7 iron 180+, as long as they get to the 200 yard mark they are good.  Firmness of the fairways and wind also play a part.  

 

Slightly OT, but can you point me to a good video/instruction set that talks about how to play a draw? 

Edited May 10, 2023 by RoyalMustang

[golfinbrad]

3 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

 

Slightly OT, but can you point me to a good video/instruction set that talks about how to play a draw? 

Let me find you something, but don't over think it.  A 3 wood has slightly more offset than a driver and is shorter, which should be easier to turnover.  This is assuming swing mechanics are sound.  I would work on closing the club face in setup and then take a normal swing.  Close the face before taking your normal grip. 

[golfinbrad]

 

[1puttTUT]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

Yes. And a lot of players set up their driver to favor a fade and their three wood to favor a draw. 

 

This 100% for me. Plus I rarely miss fairways with 3w and only lose 15 yards vs driver.

[jholz]

For me, it's always a distance issue between 3w and Driver off the tee. I don't think I have any better control over one vs. the other. But, I do tend to hit the ball "generally" straight. My misses with either club are not big.

 

But, If I'm really looking to put the ball in a specific area, I'll go down to a hybrid or iron.

[ChipNRun]

Ever since I got a Callaway XR16 Tour in 2016, driver has been my most accurate long club. Same thing has followed since I switched to Tour Edge EXS a couple of years ago.

 

If there's a chance on a tight hole I might knock the driver through the landing area, I'll hit a non-driver. A couple of par 4 holes:

• About 320 yards long hitting off a hill, the landing area narrows to 10 yards about 200 yards out. More room closer to green, but you risk OB left and hazard right if you are a tad off. 7W can drop the ball short and let it trickle into narrow zone.
• Next one has a stovepipe dogleg, can play from 340 to 370 depending on where they plant the tee blocks. Hole has OB and deep fairway bunker left, and hazard right, and center hazard beyond landing landing area if ball is too hot. Best bid: hit a 4H stinger... it will clip the top of hill, and tumble into bowl area  short of center hazard. If it comes up a bit short, you're still in fairway. (Fairway is really hard, so ball does skip).

Edited May 11, 2023 by ChipNRun
Sp.

[bmbsawy]

Lou Stagner breaks this one down during his dissertations… unless a player has a “driver yip” 3 wood isn’t statistically more accurate enough to warrant the distance loss.

[ChunkMeDaddy]

Something else I'll add in here is the tour fairways. I'm sure most of us get a taste of this in the summer at some point, but their fairways are super hard which could get the ball hopping and rolling a good distance too. Something else to consider with the thick rough

Edited May 10, 2023 by ChunkMeDaddy

[dubbelbogey]

For me, there is practically no situation where I hit 3w off the tee. I know I'm in the minority here, but I prefer to hit a chip/bunt with the driver if I need to come up short of a hazard. I'm comfortable with this shot as I've practiced it for a long time. I'll choke up a bit on the grip and swing a bit easier. The big face is simply more forgiving than the 3w (massive sidespin misses are not generally a struggle for me.)

 

3w is strictly an off-the-deck club for me.

 

 

[ARSM1932]

6 minutes ago, bmbsawy said:

Lou Stagner breaks this one down during his dissertations… unless a player has a “driver yip” 3 wood isn’t statistically more accurate enough to warrant the distance loss.

Yes, several top players including Rory are no straighter with a 3 wood than driver but they should be, Rory's 3 wood is optimised for distance over accuracy and that explains why he can carry it about 300 yards but can it it off the face of the planet at times, I am not a tour player but my 3 wood and hybrid are much more accurate than my driver.

[Medson]

7 minutes ago, bmbsawy said:

Lou Stagner breaks this one down during his dissertations… unless a player has a “driver yip” 3 wood isn’t statistically more accurate enough to warrant the distance loss.

+1. 

 

First of all, PGA Tour is not a good proxy for majority of us to model our game after. Instead, look at LPGA or Championship Tour players. It's driver almost all the time. 

 

Lou indeed compares driver vs. 3W in the past. This is his talk (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-sweet-spot-golf-podcast/id1552917994?i=1000612118839). This topic is discussed between 38 and 40 minute marks. 

[Roejye]

Generally for me I only hit 3 wood if driver is too long and brings trouble into play, or in rare occasions the landing area is just too small. I remember one hole from my first round of the year, it's a long par 5 so you would really like to hit driver at my yardage, but it would have taken a heck of a shot to carry the junk. The largest landing area was perfect 3 wood distance.

 

The other examples are at my home course, both are short par 4's, where driver is a play, but not the safest. The first is the 2nd hole that's all uphill with houses on the right, and if you can shape your driver you'll actually be okay. However, because of the way the teebox is set up and the shape of the hole, if your drive doesn't fade enough you will crest part of the hill and the ball will roll down into some trees and end up ob. Then the 9th hole driver is actually fairly safe, but there's a chance if I really catch it the ball is going into the parking lot, and I don't want to risk damaging someone's car. I'm possibly taking a few eagle chances off the table, but the peace of mind of not damaging someone's car while still having a small chance of reaching the green is better for me.

[bmbsawy]

Scott Fawcett (among others) has pitched the idea that for most better players (inherently have a neutral-ish delivery) 3 wood should be used to create draw pattern by hitting down on the ball while driver should be set up to fall right. We’re getting off into course strategy discussion but this is how I’ve set up my top end of the bag. At 125+ chs I almost never hit 3 wood into a par 5. It is exclusively a tee club. I don’t carry a 3 wood for accuracy because I have a 5 wood and 4 iron that are safe tee clubs 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

10 minutes ago, Roejye said:

...Then the 9th hole driver is actually fairly safe, but there's a chance if I really catch it the ball is going into the parking lot, and I don't want to risk damaging someone's car. I'm possibly taking a few eagle chances off the table, but the peace of mind of not damaging someone's car while still having a small chance of reaching the green is better for me.

God, but that is one of the worst feelings ever:  watching your ball sail up, up and away, then curling slowly but unstoppably towards the street filled with unsuspecting traffic and drivers.  Visions of caused automobile accidents filling your head...

 

I still haven't gone back to that course. 

 

(Nothing happened, although that drive cleared an entire eastbound lane of traffic, ending up in the median strip for the avenue.  Driver sat in the bag the rest of the round.)

[golfinbrad]

There are a lot different philosophies on this and can't say one is truly correct.  To say there is no statistical advantage on hitting 3 wood over driver makes me scratch my head.  I tend to agree maybe percentage of fairways hit might not be much different, but I would rather have a full wedge in vs. a partial wedge shot especially if it is over a bunker.  It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and putting yourself in those situations.  I struggle with analytics and Accros data, because that is data complied without knowing the true golfer is comfortable with.  I've read several articles saying statistically if you have a chance of hitting a par 5 in 2 you should do it.  I can say at my course there are 2 par fives over water and trouble around that I have made more big numbers going for it than I have eagles to justify.  Not every players is wired the same.

[RoyalMustang]

I do think that for a longer player on an older course, the 3W will come into play a bit more due to hazards and doglegs. Some courses were built during a time when max driving distance didn't exceed 275 or so. In 1980, the tour average was 256 (according to PGA.com). I have certainly played these 1980's era-courses and found the sweet spot to be 255-280 off the tee, which is incidentally my 3W distance. I know this isn't the typical "tour" course though; just the cheap ones I play. 

 

I get the point about favoring a draw vs a fade. Especially if set up correctly, it gives the golfer a lot more options. I have a hole on my home course where I can't hit driver: it's 285 to the edge of the dogleg and a pretty hard fairway, and even choked down, a squared up driver isn't stopping. It's a hard dogleg left, so hitting that 255 carry-275 rollout draw leaves you with an easy 54 degree wedge to the pin. Push a driver though and you are in big trouble; pushing anything, even at the 260 yard distance, will leave you with 165 to a small green.  

 

 

[RoyalMustang]

4 minutes ago, golfinbrad said:

There are a lot different philosophies on this and can't say one is truly correct.  To say there is no statistical advantage on hitting 3 wood over driver makes me scratch my head.  I tend to agree maybe percentage of fairways hit might not be much different, but I would rather have a full wedge in vs. a partial wedge shot especially if it is over a bunker.  It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and putting yourself in those situations.  I struggle with analytics and Accros data, because that is data complied without knowing the true golfer is comfortable with.  I've read several articles saying statistically if you have a chance of hitting a par 5 in 2 you should do it.  I can say at my course there are 2 par fives over water and trouble around that I have made more big numbers going for it than I have eagles to justify.  Not every players is wired the same.

 

Makes a lot of sense: It is one thing to be consistent off of a long par 3 at 205 with a 5-iron in hand and being on the green much of the time, but very different when that 205 is covered by 185 yards of water and you have a funky lie in the fairway.

 

The cost of a 2-stroke penalty would pretty much offset swapping out the driver for a 3W for a bunch of holes going forward; especially if you are like me and see the driver as an opportunity to "swing for the fences". 

[ECgolf]

56 minutes ago, golfinbrad said:

There are a lot different philosophies on this and can't say one is truly correct.  To say there is no statistical advantage on hitting 3 wood over driver makes me scratch my head.  I tend to agree maybe percentage of fairways hit might not be much different, but I would rather have a full wedge in vs. a partial wedge shot especially if it is over a bunker.  It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and putting yourself in those situations.  I struggle with analytics and Accros data, because that is data complied without knowing the true golfer is comfortable with.  I've read several articles saying statistically if you have a chance of hitting a par 5 in 2 you should do it.  I can say at my course there are 2 par fives over water and trouble around that I have made more big numbers going for it than I have eagles to justify.  Not every players is wired the same.

Thank you for this! I have always thought that “3 wood is no better off the tee” axium is garbage in the abstract. Makes sense if the point is don’t be afraid of driver in general. But, many of us are using 3 wood in situations where driver just brings unnecessary trouble and high numbers into play for little to no potential gain. There are a lot of situations where pulling 3wood is a huge scoring advantage over time. Just like there are a ton of situations where pulling driver is huge scoring advantage over 3 wood. It all depends on the situation and what works for that golfer. 

[golfinbrad]

2 minutes ago, ECgolf said:

Thank you for this! I have always thought that “3 wood is no better off the tee” axium is garbage in the abstract. Makes sense if the point is don’t be afraid of driver in general. But, many of us are using 3 wood in situations where driver just brings unnecessary trouble and high numbers into play for little to no potential gain. There are a lot of situations where pulling 3wood is a huge scoring advantage over time. Just like there are a ton of situations where pulling driver is huge scoring advantage over 3 wood. It all depends on the situation and what works for that golfer. 

I don't care what the stars say, if you are not comfortable with a shot don't play it.  Play what works for you and eliminate the big numbers 

[jasona93]

2 hours ago, golfinbrad said:

There are a lot different philosophies on this and can't say one is truly correct.  To say there is no statistical advantage on hitting 3 wood over driver makes me scratch my head.  I tend to agree maybe percentage of fairways hit might not be much different, but I would rather have a full wedge in vs. a partial wedge shot especially if it is over a bunker.  It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and putting yourself in those situations.  I struggle with analytics and Accros data, because that is data complied without knowing the true golfer is comfortable with.  I've read several articles saying statistically if you have a chance of hitting a par 5 in 2 you should do it.  I can say at my course there are 2 par fives over water and trouble around that I have made more big numbers going for it than I have eagles to justify.  Not every players is wired the same.

Big agree here. Lou Stagner’s data/theory of just send it all the time really doesn’t account for someone - much less a mortal amateur - who simply has more confidence grabbing 3w or leaving themselves full wedges if they want. He’s talking about tenths or hundreds of strokes that add up over time based on Tour data and your or my round is a small sample size.

There’s a shot in front of you, what do you feel most confident about doing with it? Do you have time to practice 50 yard wedge shots if you hate them, or do you work for a living and have other stuff to do so you get out once a week and you really don’t feel like thinning one 40 yards over the green?

[bmbsawy]

3 hours ago, golfinbrad said:

There are a lot different philosophies on this and can't say one is truly correct.  To say there is no statistical advantage on hitting 3 wood over driver makes me scratch my head.  I tend to agree maybe percentage of fairways hit might not be much different, but I would rather have a full wedge in vs. a partial wedge shot especially if it is over a bunker.  It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and putting yourself in those situations.  I struggle with analytics and Accros data, because that is data complied without knowing the true golfer is comfortable with.  I've read several articles saying statistically if you have a chance of hitting a par 5 in 2 you should do it.  I can say at my course there are 2 par fives over water and trouble around that I have made more big numbers going for it than I have eagles to justify.  Not every players is wired the same.

There are caveats to advancing the ball as far as possible on par 5’s.. namely that penalty areas change that calculation. Stats (and I) disagree with the notion that you should lay back to hit a full wedge over a bunker. Better to advance as far as safely possible and hit a partial wedge past the pin right? Assuming the player is comfy with touch wedges

[bmbsawy]

3 hours ago, ECgolf said:

Thank you for this! I have always thought that “3 wood is no better off the tee” axium is garbage in the abstract. Makes sense if the point is don’t be afraid of driver in general. But, many of us are using 3 wood in situations where driver just brings unnecessary trouble and high numbers into play for little to no potential gain. There are a lot of situations where pulling 3wood is a huge scoring advantage over time. Just like there are a ton of situations where pulling driver is huge scoring advantage over 3 wood. It all depends on the situation and what works for that golfer. 

You’re only hearing half the story… obviously playing short of penalty areas make other clubs the right decision… but if players have adequate room to hit driver based on understanding their shot pattern- there is no advantage to playing a shorter club to try to be more accurate