On average, does knowing the rules add or subtract strokes...

[2bGood]

One thing I notice when refereeing is players in general don't really know the rules very well. Funny thing is I see plenty of instances that their lack of knowledge hurts them. Of course I also have seen plenty of times that their lack of knowledge of the of the rules helps, as their fellow players are also ignorant of the rules and allow the breach to occur. 

 

Overall do think ignorance is bliss (and your score lower) or knowledge is power (and lower scoring occurs  )?

Edited May 30, 2023 by 2bGood

[North Butte]

It depends on what kind of "don't know" you're talking about.

 

If it's someone who cares very much about playing exactly by the Rules then of course it's in their best interest to understand them well. If for no other reason, so they can take advantage of all sorts of obscure options or forms of relief.

 

If they "don't know" because they don't care, then what they do or don't know can neither help or hurt their scores.

[TerpFangolfer]

Yes. It really is quite amazing...and agree with you about the "ignorance " comment.

 

The % of players who think the N in NPCR stands for "nicest" means you know when the players are out by themselves they are giving relief on wrong side of obstructions/ACCs. 

 

I've had countless say "what do you mean my point of relief is in that bush/high grass"

 

Also the number that think its just 1 club length (from the ball) when taking relief. When I tell them to take a club and a stance...had one last week, he wanted it in the nice grass just off the path. I couldn't get him to move his stance off the path to determine NPCR. I told him "you can't be still standing on the path after the drop anyway, so no way can you drop on that patch of grass" - we generally a have 3-4 groups we are roving between so you know its happening, even at the state Am level

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by TerpFangolfer

[2bGood]

5 hours ago, TerpFangolfer said:

Yes. It really is quite amazing...and agree with you about the "ignorance " comment.

 

The % of players who think the N in NPCR stands for "nicest" means you know when the players are out by themselves they are giving relief on wrong side of obstructions/ACCs. 

 

I've had countless say "what do you mean my point of relief is in that bush/high grass"

 

Also the number that think its just 1 club length (from the ball) when taking relief. When I tell them to take a club and a stance...had one last week, he wanted it in the nice grass just off the path. I couldn't get him to move his stance off the path to determine NPCR. I told him "you can't be still standing on the path after the drop anyway, so no way can you drop on that patch of grass" - we generally a have 3-4 groups we are roving between so you know its happening, even at the state Am level

 

Yes, I feel you. I guess that is what made me start this thread. I refereed a course where the cart paths were in constant play. Nearly every drop the player would take NPCR and ignore the additional club length. The number of times I said "....AND a club length" when confirming where they could drop had me scratching my head as they could really use the additional room. The few that did ask for assistance with the drop were actually surprised and pleased to learn that their options provided them more room they could chose to use. 

[Mr. Bean]

To answer the question in the title:

- if there is nobody to tell a player not knowing the Rules about breaches subtracts the strokes as they will not add penalties to their score (= lower score)

- if there is somebody (another player, referee) to tell a player not knowing the Rules about the breaches increases the strokes (= higher score)

- if a player knows the Rules they may take more clever reliefs than players who do not know the Rules AND can avoid breaches knowing there is a possible breach subtracts the strokes (= lower scores).

 

Im a nut shell: it pays off to know the Rules well. Or playing with buddies who no absolutely nothing about Rules ...

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, North Butte said:

If they "don't know" because they don't care, then what they do or don't know can neither help or hurt their scores.

 

Sure it helps! If you omit all penalties earned your score will be way lower on the average.

[Pastit]

40 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

To answer the question in the title:

- if there is nobody to tell a player not knowing the Rules about breaches subtracts the strokes as they will not add penalties to their score (= lower score)

- if there is somebody (another player, referee) to tell a player not knowing the Rules about the breaches increases the strokes (= higher score)

- if a player knows the Rules they may take more clever reliefs than players who do not know the Rules AND can avoid breaches knowing there is a possible breach subtracts the strokes (= lower scores).

 

Im a nut shell: it pays off to know the Rules well. Or playing with buddies who no absolutely nothing about Rules ...

 

 

 

I played winter links golf with a very competitive golfer off ten who had no idea about rules or etiquette and found it wearing to answer his repeated questions. On one occasion, when he sought the most ridiculous relief, I told him to manage his own game as I had enough problems managing mine.
 

But I confess to winding him up once or twice because of his ignorance when I probably would have ignored minor breaches from other players. One example being that he moved the ball on address in the rough when well-placed to win the hole. Did I have a conscience - well ………?

Edited May 30, 2023 by Pastit
Spelling

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Pastit said:

But I confess to winding him up once or twice because of his ignorance when I probably would have ignored minor breaches from other players. 

 

Match play or stroke play?

[Pastit]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Match play or stroke play?

Friendly or “ unfriendly “ singles matchplay. If it’s a Club comp it’s full rules only. 

[Augster]

I think knowing the rules well costs me more strokes than others who do not know the rules nearly as well. 
 

Knowing how to apply KVC costs more strokes than not knowing. If I don’t have KVC it’s in a PA, I take E-5 and drop in the fairway. Most other players I play with will just take the PA drop for 1SP and move on. 
 

Knowing how to apply KVC vs. not knowing how to apply it sometimes costs you an extra stroke. 

[Mr. Bean]

15 hours ago, Pastit said:

Friendly or “ unfriendly “ singles matchplay. If it’s a Club comp it’s full rules only. 

 

Whether it is club comp, friendly or unfriendly match you are allowed to ignore breaches made by your opponent.

[Pastit]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Whether it is club comp, friendly or unfriendly match you are allowed to ignore breaches made by your opponent.

I worked on the basis that I had a duty to protect the field, as unpopular as that may have been, so I’m surprised at your statement. Failure to do led to folk avoiding open competitions because of the fraud. Including, absurdly, sometime entering a county level open comp under someone else’s name and handicap to get an advantage. 
 

For friendly golf only, unless a person gains an advantage by their mistake I’m usually not worried. 

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, Pastit said:

I worked on the basis that I had a duty to protect the field, as unpopular as that may have been, so I’m surprised at your statement. Failure to do led to folk avoiding open competitions because of the fraud. Including, absurdly, sometime entering a county level open comp under someone else’s name and handicap to get an advantage. 
 

For friendly golf only, unless a person gains an advantage by their mistake I’m usually not worried. 

I think you missed the point. In Match Play YOU are the field. The ROG allow you to 'choose whether or not to act on a breach' of the rules in match play. You can chose to ignore a breach as it only hurts you as it is a one on one competition. This is why you can concede putts in match play - it only effects you. 

 

It should be noted that you can ignore a single breach of the rules as many times as you like, but you cannot agree with your opponent to ignore a ROG. 

 

(4) Protecting Own Rights and Interests. The players in a match should protect their own rights and interests under the Rules:

• If the player knows or believes that the opponent has breached a Rule that has a penalty, the player may choose whether or not to act on the breach.

• But if the player and opponent  agree not to apply the Rules or a penalty they know applies, and either of those players has started the round, they are both disqualified under Rule 1.3b.

Edited May 31, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Pastit said:

I worked on the basis that I had a duty to protect the field, as unpopular as that may have been, so I’m surprised at your statement. Failure to do led to folk avoiding open competitions because of the fraud. Including, absurdly, sometime entering a county level open comp under someone else’s name and handicap to get an advantage. 
 

For friendly golf only, unless a person gains an advantage by their mistake I’m usually not worried. 

 

I specifically asked you whether it is Match Play or Stroke Play and you are mixing those two up, as @2bGood pointed out.

 

In Stroke Play you must protect the field and you cannot ignore any breaches or you may yourself be disqualified.

[Schulzmc]

This is such a tough subject. Two years ago in our club championship qualifying a participant hit a provisional on the tee, declaring a different number ball than the one used for the original tee shot. He found that ball in play so the provisional went in his pocket. After marking his ball on the putting green he accidentally putted out with that ball used as the provisional. This was noticed by a fellow competitor who called it out, resulting in a penalty. 

 

The end result for the guy who called it out? He is now "that guy" and his reputation at the club has taken a huge hit. It's not fair, but it is reality. The general thinking is the use of the wrong ball on the putting green had no real effect on his score and thus the guy who called it out really wasn't "protecting the field" at all. I of course disagree but I am in the minority. 

 

The real question is... would I have called it out if I had seen it? Especially knowing the social consequences at the club? Hmmmm...

[ShortGolfer]

Before the 2019 rule changes I think following all the rules added strokes, making the total higher.

 

But, with the relaxed bunker rules, allowing players to drop the ball out of the bunker for a 2 stroke penalty, knowing all the rules, will lower the stroke play total.

Presumably someone that knows all the rules will follow reasonable course management for a low score.  Boring rounds lead to low scores.

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[Pastit]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

I think you missed the point. In Match Play YOU are the field. The ROG allow you to 'choose whether or not to act on a breach' of the rules in match play. You can chose to ignore a breach as it only hurts you as it is a one on one competition. This is why you can concede putts in match play - it only effects you. 

 

It should be noted that you can ignore a single breach of the rules as many times as you like, but you cannot agree with your opponent to ignore a ROG. 

 

(4) Protecting Own Rights and Interests. The players in a match should protect their own rights and interests under the Rules:

• If the player knows or believes that the opponent has breached a Rule that has a penalty, the player may choose whether or not to act on the breach.

• But if the player and opponent  agree not to apply the Rules or a penalty they know applies, and either of those players has started the round, they are both disqualified under Rule 1.3b.

No, please see below. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Pastit

[Pastit]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I specifically asked you whether it is Match Play or Stroke Play and you are mixing those two up, as @2bGood pointed out.

 

In Stroke Play you must protect the field and you cannot ignore any breaches or you may yourself be disqualified.

Sorry, I omitted “ stroke play “ in the context of “ comps “.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

This is such a tough subject. Two years ago in our club championship qualifying a participant hit a provisional on the tee, declaring a different number ball than the one used for the original tee shot. He found that ball in play so the provisional went in his pocket. After marking his ball on the putting green he accidentally putted out with that ball used as the provisional. This was noticed by a fellow competitor who called it out, resulting in a penalty. 

 

The end result for the guy who called it out? He is now "that guy" and his reputation at the club has taken a huge hit. It's not fair, but it is reality. The general thinking is the use of the wrong ball on the putting green had no real effect on his score and thus the guy who called it out really wasn't "protecting the field" at all. I of course disagree but I am in the minority. 

 

The real question is... would I have called it out if I had seen it? Especially knowing the social consequences at the club? Hmmmm...

 

[IndyArcher]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

 

The knowledge isn't the problem. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, ShortGolfer said:

Presumably someone that knows all the rules will follow reasonable course management for a low score.  Boring rounds lead to low scores.

 

 

I agree. It is boring to hit all the fairways and get GIR on every hole. So boring.

 

I wish I could play such boring golf. Knowing the Rules well does not give me that kind of skills.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

This is such a tough subject. Two years ago in our club championship qualifying a participant hit a provisional on the tee, declaring a different number ball than the one used for the original tee shot. He found that ball in play so the provisional went in his pocket. After marking his ball on the putting green he accidentally putted out with that ball used as the provisional. This was noticed by a fellow competitor who called it out, resulting in a penalty. 

 

The end result for the guy who called it out? He is now "that guy" and his reputation at the club has taken a huge hit. It's not fair, but it is reality. The general thinking is the use of the wrong ball on the putting green had no real effect on his score and thus the guy who called it out really wasn't "protecting the field" at all. I of course disagree but I am in the minority. 

 

The real question is... would I have called it out if I had seen it? Especially knowing the social consequences at the club? Hmmmm...

Stuff like that happens to people who carry extra balls in their pocket, lol.  

 

So did the person who violated the rule not take it graciously, as he should have?  I'm guessing not, or there shouldn't have been a continuing issue.

 

To the original question, playing by the rules would cost most golfers more strokes for sure, which is what this really comes down to, IMO. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

This is such a tough subject. Two years ago in our club championship qualifying a participant hit a provisional on the tee, declaring a different number ball than the one used for the original tee shot. He found that ball in play so the provisional went in his pocket. After marking his ball on the putting green he accidentally putted out with that ball used as the provisional. This was noticed by a fellow competitor who called it out, resulting in a penalty. 

 

The end result for the guy who called it out? He is now "that guy" and his reputation at the club has taken a huge hit. It's not fair, but it is reality. The general thinking is the use of the wrong ball on the putting green had no real effect on his score and thus the guy who called it out really wasn't "protecting the field" at all. I of course disagree but I am in the minority. 

 

The real question is... would I have called it out if I had seen it? Especially knowing the social consequences at the club? Hmmmm...

 

What I do in such situations is that I give the player a choice.

 

"Did you notice that (you substituted your ball without it being allowed / touch the sand with your club in the backswing / your ball moved at address) ? That is a penalty and it is up to you to mark it in your score."

 

If the player has the integrity of a decent golf player he will accept the penalty. If not, well...

 

The mistake / breach is not mine but the player's and it is up to him to suffer the concequenses.

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

To the original question, playing by the rules would cost most golfers more strokes for sure, which is what this really comes down to, IMO. 

 

That was not the original question, it was whether knowing the Rules well will cost you strokes or save them. Two entirely different things.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

What I do in such situations is that I give the player a choice.

 

"Did you notice that (you substituted your ball without it being allowed / touch the sand with your club in the backswing / your ball moved at address)? That is a penalty and it is up to you to mark it in your score."

 

If the player has the integrity of a decent golf player he will accept the penalty. If not, well...

 

The mistake / breach is not mine but the player's and it is up to him to suffer the concequenses.

 

And if they don't make the correct choice…?

[ChipStrokes]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

And if they don't make the correct choice…?

beanbot be like:

[Mr. Bean]

52 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

And if they don't make the correct choice…?

 

If I am the marker I will not sign the card. If I am not the marker I suggest the marker to do the same thing.

 

This has not happened many times but every time the player has accepted the penalty and there has been no fuss, not then, not afterwards.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That was not the original question, it was whether knowing the Rules well will cost you strokes or save them. Two entirely different things.

Good Lord man, I read the original question and hence why I said, "what this really comes down to."  
 

Find something else to pick at, but after you take the time to read it and think about it.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Good Lord man, I read the original question and hence why I said, "what this really comes down to."  
 

Find something else to pick at, but after you take the time to read it and think about it.

 

I am not picking at you, I simply disagree with what you wrote. What makes you so shaky?

[BigBlue7]

Well one of the first rules is to count every stroke you take and there are no such thing as mulligans, so with that one rule I would guess the far majority of amateurs would add strokes to their score/handicap if they played by the rules