It all got a bit unpleasant

[naval2006]

3 hours ago, cardoustie said:

I need the whole story 

plus, was he a long term Cheater do you feel?

 

the best player at my old club won our club c 6 times and I was runner up 4 times

he was an epic cheater … tossing coin closer on greens, preferring lies etc.  one year he convinced his group to let him play greenside on a yellow hazard … DQ’d him

 

the best was he’d be playing scratch golf 12-14 beers deep, 6 x 16oz beers before the round … even with an 8am tee off 

The case I'm talking about is 7 times Club Champion.  

 

On qually day for Handicap Club Championship, which is mostly a participative tournament, he was on the last group.  We were fininshing processing scores to set up the playoffs and he was the last qualified.  Late that night as the draw was published the pro got a call from the marker.  He stated that the player had shot 74, not 73.  Next day we had to redo the draw and the pro sent the marker a photo of the card.  

"He shot 5 on the 18th," the marker said.  "I wrote 5, there's a 4 written over, it's not my handwriting."

 

The player had blatantly changed the score before turning in the card so he was DQ.  To make things worse, the next day the player showed up a couple of times to ask for his card.  He was told scorecards always belong to the competition and cannot be removed.  So the next day, Monday morning, he showed up again and after intimidating the pro, he took the card.  He was summoned by the Committee and was asked to return the card.  After two days lying that the card had been dumped he returned it: the square on the 18th hole had been completely crossed out with ink so it was ilegible.

 

To cut a long story short, the guy was kept out of all competitions for a year at club level.  His case was thoroughly reported to the national Federation and he's amateur status has been removed for eight years. 

 

He'd never had a reputation so it was all shocking and unexpected.  In a country where playing golf is playing tournaments, the player is now a golf outcast; and although he can spend as much time at the club as he wants, he no longer shows up.  A group of members have even proposed to cross him out of the list of Club Champions. 

 

What is left for debate in a story like this is if the player had always been a very discrete cheat or what went through his mind to do that since he had no reputation.  I find it all very disappointing, especially because I do believe that cheats don't change and therein lays the answer to this case.   

[hammersia]

Small update - I spoke with a few members of the remaining group at the weekend, confirms a few things. 

 

Following the suggestion ITT that I should help make sure everyone followed the rules, I was also a complete rules nazi within my fourball.

 

1) Yes, Bob has been spoken to a few times before by members of the group directly about picking the ball up in the rough.

2) Everyone denies signing Bobs card (the "greens flooded") card, so that remains a mystery how that got submitted.

3) I've offered Bob a game, told him he's my friend (violin), no reply yet.

 

In terms of my fourball this weekend, I was running all over the course, measuring drops for various people, enforcing point of entry etc. 

 

I can report two "misunderstandings" and one "flagrant attempted cheat" - dropping the ball 30 yards further up than it should have been. 

 

And that a somewhat capable 20 handicapper had no clue how to count a penalty shot. Jeez. 

 

I might need to find another game, they all drag me down with their pitiful golf anyway. 

[teejaywhy]

 

Unrepentant serial cheating/lying is one of the characteristics of a sociopath.

 

That may sound harsh, but also consider:   Sociopaths are experts at reversing criticism back and making you feel like you are in the wrong.  They are skilled in manipulation and redirecting any conversation.  This is how they skate by day by day and continue to fool people.   Anyone calling out their behavior comes away feeling like they are the A-hole.

 

Once you have had personal dealings with a sociopath however; you learn to recognize the behavior.

 

Submitted to evidence - Exhibit A:

 

On 7/4/2023 at 3:13 AM, hammersia said:

His last post :

 

"didn't realise I was such an undesirable character"

 

"submits a high proportion of my rounds"

 

"astonished, insulted and dismayed"

 

"at no time has someone spoken to me directly about any perceived insurmountable problem"

 

 

Yeah.   like I said...

Don't feel bad about kicking him out.  

 

 

 

[bcflyguy1]

On 7/4/2023 at 5:13 AM, hammersia said:

We put in 5 dollars each so we're normally playing for about 60 dollars.

 

Since this blew up, all his communications have been through Whatsapp, not in person. 

 

His current comments are a bit detached from reality really.

 

His last post :

 

"didn't realise I was such an undesirable character"

(you were caught cheating, and you put out an incredibly long winded and not remotely credible defence)

 

"submits a high proportion of my rounds"

(how about all of them)

 

"astonished, insulted and dismayed"

 

"at no time has someone spoken to me directly about any perceived insurmountable problem"

(I'm told there were quite a lot of attempted interventions in private) 

 

I certainly don't speak for everyone else in the group, some of whom clearly DO have personal issues with him.

 

My issues were simply about... cheating. 

Bob is a textbook narcissist at the very least, if not a full-blown sociopath as stated above. Your group is better for his expulsion; he got what he's had coming to him and none too soon.

If he didn't want this outcome, he should have played the game with integrity. His vanity was far more important to him; he made his choice and can now live with its consequences.

Edited July 12, 2023 by bcflyguy1

[bobfoster]

On behalf of Bobs the world over - happy you did that.

 

When one Bob cheats, it diminishes us all. 

[blades_are_life]

Real rough when someone pulls out the pity party card while also being an apparently unrepentant cheat.

[szaino]

Not to justify or support cheating, but, the rules of golf are way to complicated to be used consistently by all golfers. My only point is that golfers sometimes unknowingly break the rules on a regular basis and their playing partners are then put in as position to have to explain the rule. This can lead to resentment and a delicate situation. 

 

Most golfers may say that they play by the rules of golf, but everyone's knowledge of the rules varies, usually dramatically. As a result, players break rules on a regular basis without even realizing what the actual rule is. Groups who play together all the time frequently adopt this "group" rule and think that it is correct.

 

There are countless situations of this that occur usually every round- but at the top of the list are:

- relief procedures for penalty areas, obstructions, and determining the nearest point of relief.

- And then when a penalty is determined to have happened what the remedy is- one stroke, two strokes, no strokes, loss of hole in match play, DQ  etc

 

I think that because the rules are complicated, this contributes to cheaters who will take advantage of any situation. The only thing that you can do is point out the rules violation and then start hitting them in the pocket book. 

 

 

[smashdn]

31 minutes ago, szaino said:

Not to justify or support cheating, but, the rules of golf are way to complicated to be used consistently by all golfers. My only point is that golfers sometimes unknowingly break the rules on a regular basis and their playing partners are then put in as position to have to explain the rule. This can lead to resentment and a delicate situation. 

 

Most golfers may say that they play by the rules of golf, but everyone's knowledge of the rules varies, usually dramatically. As a result, players break rules on a regular basis without even realizing what the actual rule is. Groups who play together all the time frequently adopt this "group" rule and think that it is correct.

 

There are countless situations of this that occur usually every round- but at the top of the list are:

- relief procedures for penalty areas, obstructions, and determining the nearest point of relief.

- And then when a penalty is determined to have happened what the remedy is- one stroke, two strokes, no strokes, loss of hole in match play, DQ  etc

 

I think that because the rules are complicated, this contributes to cheaters who will take advantage of any situation. The only thing that you can do is point out the rules violation and then start hitting them in the pocket book. 

 

 

 

I must object.  If you play the ball down from tee to hole, and never touch the thing until you grab it from the bottom of the cup, you are going to be hard-pressed to not play by The Rules.

 

It is when one feels inclined or allowed to move their ball that The Rules begin to have requisites for correct application.  For the average golfer, just knowing how to properly put a ball back into play after hitting into a penalty area and OB covers 95% of the scenarios they are likely to get into.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, szaino said:

There are countless situations of this that occur usually every round- but at the top of the list are:

- relief procedures for penalty areas, obstructions, and determining the nearest point of relief.

- And then when a penalty is determined to have happened what the remedy is- one stroke, two strokes, no strokes, loss of hole in match play, DQ  etc

 

In addition to what @smashdn said… those types of rules aren't that complex or difficult to apply.

[rogolf]

6 hours ago, szaino said:

Not to justify or support cheating, but, the rules of golf are way to complicated to be used consistently by all golfers. My only point is that golfers sometimes unknowingly break the rules on a regular basis and their playing partners are then put in as position to have to explain the rule. This can lead to resentment and a delicate situation. 

 

Most golfers may say that they play by the rules of golf, but everyone's knowledge of the rules varies, usually dramatically. As a result, players break rules on a regular basis without even realizing what the actual rule is. Groups who play together all the time frequently adopt this "group" rule and think that it is correct.

 

There are countless situations of this that occur usually every round- but at the top of the list are:

- relief procedures for penalty areas, obstructions, and determining the nearest point of relief.

- And then when a penalty is determined to have happened what the remedy is- one stroke, two strokes, no strokes, loss of hole in match play, DQ  etc

 

I think that because the rules are complicated, this contributes to cheaters who will take advantage of any situation. The only thing that you can do is point out the rules violation and then start hitting them in the pocket book. 

 

 

I disagree that the Rules are "way to complicated".  Golfers have the responsibility to learn the basic Rules and play by them.  It's just not as hard as you seem to think!

[Socrates]

I see 3 options here:

1. You guys stop playing for money and just play for the fun of it.

2. For money, you play the ball down and putt out everything, but don't allow him to be in the "game."

3. You find another group.

[st1800e]

17 hours ago, Socrates said:

I see 3 options here:

1. You guys stop playing for money and just play for the fun of it.

2. For money, you play the ball down and putt out everything, but don't allow him to be in the "game."

3. You find another group.

Or ask this question at the start of the round…

 

”Strict rules of golf, Goldfinger?” 😉

[caniac6]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:54 AM, szaino said:

Not to justify or support cheating, but, the rules of golf are way to complicated to be used consistently by all golfers. My only point is that golfers sometimes unknowingly break the rules on a regular basis and their playing partners are then put in as position to have to explain the rule. This can lead to resentment and a delicate situation. 

 

Most golfers may say that they play by the rules of golf, but everyone's knowledge of the rules varies, usually dramatically. As a result, players break rules on a regular basis without even realizing what the actual rule is. Groups who play together all the time frequently adopt this "group" rule and think that it is correct.

 

There are countless situations of this that occur usually every round- but at the top of the list are:

- relief procedures for penalty areas, obstructions, and determining the nearest point of relief.

- And then when a penalty is determined to have happened what the remedy is- one stroke, two strokes, no strokes, loss of hole in match play, DQ  etc

 

I think that because the rules are complicated, this contributes to cheaters who will take advantage of any situation. The only thing that you can do is point out the rules violation and then start hitting them in the pocket book. 

 

 

Some drops can be a bit confusing, but play it down, and putt it out is as simple as it gets. If some guys don’t understand those rules, chip in, and buy them a bowling ball.j

[Soloman1]

You could just let good old Bob play again. He just can’t play for money until he plays five clean rounds.

 

Or make him the official rules guy for your games. That’s be fun.