Why is there such contempt for The Rules?

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I didn't back track on anything bub.

So you still claim that knowledgeable golfers commit some kind if infraction almost every round?  

[mshills]

OK.  So you go to a forum of golf nut cases, then go to what is the most specialized corner of the forum -- the rules forum -- argue about the rules, then claim "there is no arguing."

 

The rules aren't that hard.  9 out of 10 claims about the rules being too hard are really the player not liking the impact on his score -- a very different issue than the rules being too hard to understand.

 

For the record, I don't always adhere 100% to the rules either.  I do my best, but for example, if the course is busy, I'm walking, it's 85 degrees, I cannot find my tee ball and I failed to play a provisional, I don't walk back to the tee and hit again.  But that's my fault, not the rules fault.

[clevited]

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

So you still claim that knowledgeable golfers commit some kind if infraction almost every round?  

 

Yes they do, often they don't realize it or they know it is so petty and doesn't effect their score that they disregard the rule.  If it were in a tournament, they would get called on it, but a casual round they will post the score for, yes, frequently.

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

You boys do realize that you are mostly rules enthusiasts and do not represent the game as a whole right?  This thread is about contempt for the rules of golf. It is going to get mostly your side of the arguement in here. I am representing the other side which the subject matter is about.  Take the opportunity to learn why there is contempt for the rules of golf from people in the know.

Based on your responses, the "contempt" comes primarily from people who have not made an effort to understand the Rules.  I can understand that, and accept it, although your broad generalizations don't really help your case.  The only "cure" for that isn't to further dumb down the rules, but rather to help interested players learn more about the rules.  And if the players aren't interested, their "contempt" is pretty meaningless.

Edited July 27, 2023 by davep043

[sui generis]

29 minutes ago, clevited said:

even the most serious golfers would get called for a rules violation almost every round because they didn't apply it correctly. 

 

That is absolutely untrue.

 

Competitive players play many, many rounds each year and never, ever sniff a Rules violation! Sure, they might incur a penalty stroke for a ball in a penalty area or a lost ball or an unplayable lie, but that's NOT a "violation."

 

Many folks wander in here and find they can learn something, others just wander in here to troll.

 

 

[clevited]

10 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Based on your responses, the "contempt" comes primarily from people who have not made an effort to understand the Rules.  I can understand that, and accept it, although your broad generalizations don't really help your case.  The only "cure" for that isn't to further dumb down the rules, but rather to help interested players learn more about the rules.  And if the players aren't interested, their "contempt" is pretty meaningless.

 

No.  In my situation we always try to play by the rules but almost every round a situation comes up where we can't quite remember how the rule went exactly, or confuse it with another similar one and undoubtedly, we have done it wrong plenty of times.  It is precisely because people that do attempt to learn the rules still struggle with them too frequently that I think they are dumb and need to be overhauled.  

 

You call it dumbing down rules.  I call it simplifying them so more people can A) easily remember them and not get confused B) more people play the game under the rules without issue C) faster rounds are played because rules are intelligent and fair and easily remembered and applied.

 

We can agree to disagree but I think you should attempt more to understand and respect the arguments I am making instead of poo pooing them.  They are very real and are an objective problem with the sport.

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I would like to see a local model rule allowing drop on either side of the cart path at the players discretion.  There are two problem holes a my course where the PA line is close to the cart path and it can become a real chore explaining how to drop from the PA within two club lengths and then determine the nearest point of relief from the cart path.  This process can take a fair amount of time depending on the person I am trying to explain it to.  Drop twice, place the ball now determine the NPR, LOL it is a real PITA at times.

Yeah, multiple relief situations CAN become a little complicated.  The concept is pretty simple, really, take relief for your current ball position, and start again.  If you need to take relief a second time, from a different "problem", follow the procedure.  The drop-drop-place procedure is basically the same for each.  This is one situation where I'd suggest the steps be condensed for casual play, but done correctly for competitions. 

 

In my experience, playing and officiating over a fair few years, these more complicated situations aren't all that common, although I've had to work through them a few times, especially with juniors.  And I've found that the juniors are almost unanimously interested in learning more about rules. 

[Nels55]

22 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Yeah, multiple relief situations CAN become a little complicated.  The concept is pretty simple, really, take relief for your current ball position, and start again.  If you need to take relief a second time, from a different "problem", follow the procedure.  The drop-drop-place procedure is basically the same for each.  This is one situation where I'd suggest the steps be condensed for casual play, but done correctly for competitions. 

 

In my experience, playing and officiating over a fair few years, these more complicated situations aren't all that common, although I've had to work through them a few times, especially with juniors.  And I've found that the juniors are almost unanimously interested in learning more about rules. 

LOL I wish that we had you officiating our tournaments!  Or maybe 18 of you...  There are a lot of guys who pretend to not know the rules when it is convenient for instance golfing with me they might take relief properly on the creek side of the path while playing with guys who don't know the rules they will throw their ball in the fairway.  I had one very experienced low handicapper trying to take relief from casual water in a PA!  And my partner was going to let him do it.  He had already cleaned his ball when I told him he couldn't take relief and he had to put the ball back.  He said that he could ID the ball to cover the cleaning.  Afterword he said the he would have to remember that you can't take relief in a 'hazard'.  Not much you can do about guys like that other then figure that they never win anything legitimately.    

[davep043]

4 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

LOL I wish that we had you officiating our tournaments!  Or maybe 18 of you...  There are a lot of guys who pretend to not know the rules when it is convenient for instance golfing with me they might take relief properly on the creek side of the path while playing with guys who don't know the rules they will throw their ball in the fairway.  I had one very experienced low handicapper trying to take relief from casual water in a PA!  And my partner was going to let him do it.  He had already cleaned his ball when I told him he couldn't take relief and he had to put the ball back.  He said that he could ID the ball to cover the cleaning.  Afterword he said the he would have to remember that you can't take relief in a 'hazard'.  Not much you can do about guys like that other then figure that they never win anything legitimately.    

Yeah, Rules can't conquer cheaters.  That's not the fault of the rules, that's completely on the cheaters.

[Newby]

4 hours ago, clevited said:

 There are also too many rules that are contradictory in nature to other rules. 

Please give 3 situations where there are contradictory rules.

eg where one rule says you may or must do something and another says you can't or must do something else.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

You boys do realize that you are mostly rules enthusiasts and do not represent the game as a whole right?  This thread is about contempt for the rules of golf. It is going to get mostly your side of the arguement in here. I am representing the other side which the subject matter is about.  Take the opportunity to learn why there is contempt for the rules of golf from people in the know.

 

Let us turn this around.

 

Why don't you learn the Rules as well some of us have and start to understand the logic behind them?

 

Or are you too stupid..? 😉

[clevited]

11 minutes ago, Newby said:

Please give 3 situations where there are contradictory rules.

eg where one rule says you may or must do something and another says you can't or must do something else.

 

Divot in fairway vs ground under repair.

Practice swing in hazard vs practice swing in bunker or waste areas.

Stroke and distance for OB (which is an unplayable hazard) vs stroke only for water hazard (which are almost always unplayable hazards).

[clevited]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

Let us turn this around.

 

Why don't you learn the Rules as well some of us have and start to understand the logic behind them?

 

Or are you too stupid..? 😉

 

I have learned the rules, which is why I think they are stupid and need an overhaul.  I absolutely LOATHE poorly thought out rules of any kind.  

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, clevited said:

 

I have learned the rules, which is why I think they are stupid and need an overhaul.  I absolutely LOATHE poorly thought out rules of any kind.  

 

From your posts I can read that you have NOT learned the Rules, you have simply glanced them through, if even that. If you had LEARNED the Rules you would not throw such ignorant comments all over the place.

[clevited]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

From your posts I can read that you have NOT learned the Rules, you have simply glanced them through, if even that. If you had LEARNED the Rules you would not throw such ignorant comments all over the place.

 

Your rules enthusiast bias is showing.

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Your rules enthusiast bias is showing.

 

You know, I was a bit in your shoes some 20 years ago when I did not really know the Rules. I felt that many cases were confusing and hard to understand. Later on I have studied the Rules, gotten tutoring and education and been refereeing for 15 years.

 

The result is that I can find the logic behind the Rules. Not every single of them, I admit, but I cannot find one single Rule that I would call stupid.

 

Having said this I will leave you floating in your self pitty and ignorance about the Rules. Thank you for contributing.

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You know, I was a bit in your shoes some 20 years ago when I did not really know the Rules. I felt that many cases were confusing and hard to understand. Later on I have studied the Rules, gotten tutoring and education and been refereeing for 15 years.

 

The result is that I can find the logic behind the Rules. Not every single of them, I admit, but I cannot find one single Rule that I would call stupid.

 

Having said this I will leave you floating in your self pitty and ignorance about the Rules. Thank you for contributing.

 

Nobody should need to STUDY the rules, and you just admitted yourself they were confusing and hard to understand at some point.  They are confusing and hard to understand even for people like yourself at times.  You guys are denying truth here because you seem to be die hard "golf rules are perfect" fans.  

 

I am explaining to you guys why there is contempt for the rules, you guys keep repeating what I am saying with your own examples but then tell me I don't know the rules, or I am stupid.  You are defending RULES of a game like they are your child.  Lets have an honest discussion.  You can't tell me they can't use more tweaks.  Grow the game right?  Simplifying the rules, eliminating contradictory and stupid ones doesn't mean the game suddenly becomes easier to play and excel at.  It means it becomes more appealing to play, and be played by the rules correctly.  

Edited July 27, 2023 by clevited

[Newby]

22 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Divot in fairway vs ground under repair.

Practice swing in hazard vs practice swing in bunker or waste areas.

Stroke and distance for OB (which is an unplayable hazard) vs stroke only for water hazard (which are almost always unplayable hazards).

1) Already explained earlier but just what is a divot (hole)?

2) Just where is the contradiction? What can or can't you do in a 'hazard' (whatever that is) that you can or can't in a bunker or waste area (whatever that is)?

3) A prime objective of the game is to play on a course. OB is not on the course. You can't play chess with pieces that are not on the board or tennis if the ball is out of the court.

[davep043]

32 minutes ago, clevited said:

Nobody should need to STUDY the rules

This is just silly.  With just a few hours of study a player can learn the rules that are important for almost all play.  Those rules, areas of the course, relief from Abnormal Course Conditions, penalty areas, Unplayable, Lost Ball, OB, they're not that complicated.  If a player's not willing to put in that minimal effort, they have to look at themselves first.  You may not like that divot holes aren't treated as GUR, but the definition of GUR is clear.  You may not LIKE stroke and distance for lost of OB balls, but the Rule is clear.  Its pretty easy to remember that you don't get a practice swing that touches the sand in a Bunker.  But if all those were changed, those players STILL would be too lazy to study your new simplified rules, they'd remain ignorant.

 

Let me propose Rules simply enough for those golfers:

Hit your ball from the tee.  Don't touch it.  Continue until you hole it.  Start again on the next tee.  Simple enough?

Edited July 27, 2023 by davep043

[jlbos83]

27 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Divot in fairway vs ground under repair.

Practice swing in hazard vs practice swing in bunker or waste areas.

Stroke and distance for OB (which is an unplayable hazard) vs stroke only for water hazard (which are almost always unplayable hazards).

Well, in the latest rules there are no hazards, only penalty areas.  And you may take a practice swing anywhere other than the bunker you are in.  So you are certainly not up to date.

And OB is not an unplayable hazard (which seems to be a term you made up to suit your purposes), it is off the defined course.  There are some playable penalty areas, and some not.  It's one place where the rules can be kind, you have an option.

 

A divot hole isn't GUR, it's a divot hole, and is part of the course.  To hear the divot hole whiners tell it, they are in one on every hole, when I bet they play the majority of their rounds never being in one.  the only way to change it would be LCP in the fairway always, I hope to never see that day.

Currently there are 25 rules, and when you look at them a fair number are just to define the game.  There are only about ten that you need to know every day.  (Really less.)  If you want less, we can get rid of free relief from anything, and make every drop stroke and distance.  Much simpler, at least, right?

 

[mshills]

31 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Divot in fairway vs ground under repair.

Practice swing in hazard vs practice swing in bunker or waste areas.

Stroke and distance for OB (which is an unplayable hazard) vs stroke only for water hazard (which are almost always unplayable hazards).

 

1.  No contradiction.  GUR has a specific definition.  A divot does not.

2. There are red and yellow penalty areas and there are bunkers, not sure what your statement refers to.

3. No contradiction.  OB is not an unplayable hazard - it is exactly what it says it is - Out of Bounds, meaning off the golf course completely.

[sui generis]

20 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Nobody should need to STUDY the rules, and you just admitted yourself they were confusing and hard to understand at some point.  They are confusing and hard to understand even for people like yourself at times.  You guys are denying truth here because you seem to be die hard "golf rules are perfect" fans.  

 

I am explaining to you guys why there is contempt for the rules, you guys keep repeating what I am saying with your own examples but then tell me I don't know the rules, or I am stupid.  You are defending RULES of a game like they are your child.  Lets have an honest discussion.  You can't tell me they can't use more tweaks.  Grow the game right?  Simplifying the rules, eliminating contradictory and stupid ones doesn't mean the game suddenly becomes easier to play and excel at.  It means it becomes more appealing to play, and be played by the rules correctly.  

 

Nobody's laughing with you, by now, they're all laughing at you. 🙄

[clevited]

8 minutes ago, jlbos83 said:

Well, in the latest rules there are no hazards, only penalty areas.  And you may take a practice swing anywhere other than the bunker you are in.  So you are certainly not up to date.

And OB is not an unplayable hazard (which seems to be a term you made up to suit your purposes), it is off the defined course.  There are some playable penalty areas, and some not.  It's one place where the rules can be kind, you have an option.

 

A divot hole isn't GUR, it's a divot hole, and is part of the course.  To hear the divot hole whiners tell it, they are in one on every hole, when I bet they play the majority of their rounds never being in one.  the only way to change it would be LCP in the fairway always, I hope to never see that day.

Currently there are 25 rules, and when you look at them a fair number are just to define the game.  There are only about ten that you need to know every day.  (Really less.)  If you want less, we can get rid of free relief from anything, and make every drop stroke and distance.  Much simpler, at least, right?

 

 

I am up to date, I think you just misunderstood what I said.

 

-Practice swing, meaning, touching grass is ok in a dry hazard, but not in a bunker or waste area.

-Divot is arguably the definition of ground under repair.  Why do you think it comes up so many times in the forums.  Casual water says hi as well.  A divot can be said to be abnormal course conditions because a divot is supposed to be repaired when a player makes one, hence, it should be ground under repair.

-OB is still a hazard you are not allowed to play out of.  It should not have a stroke and distance penalty even if you simply look at it from a pace of play perspective.  There are plenty of times where people are playing a course they are unfamiliar with (most people play courses that don't have caddies you know) and go OB even though they had no reason to believe they did off the tee.  2 strokes is even a dumb MLR because it is an arbitrary penalty amount for something that really is just an unplayable hazard.  Either make all hazards the same, or make OB the same as all other hazards.   

[clevited]

18 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Nobody's laughing with you, by now, they're all laughing at you. 🙄

 

Very mature of you.  Your parents must be proud.

[mshills]

This is like a parallel universe the craziness....I'm not naturally a rule-follower, not at all, and here I am arguing on behalf of the rules!

 

Actually that's wrong, I'm simply arguing that whether you want to follow them or not, you do you, but don't tell me it's because the rules are too hard to understand.  It's because you don't like what happens to your score when you're not allowed to take free relief from roots "so I don't hurt myself" or toss a ball in the fairway when you can't find your ball.

To be clear, people can follow or not follow whatever rules they want.  As for me, my enjoyment typically comes from the competition aspect, so gotta follow the ROG.  When I'm playing for nothing with my wife, anything goes, and that's fun too.

[mshills]

3 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I am up to date, I think you just misunderstood what I said.

 

-Practice swing, meaning, touching grass is ok in a dry hazard, but not in a bunker or waste area.

-Divot is arguably the definition of ground under repair.  Why do you think it comes up so many times in the forums.  Casual water says hi as well.  A divot can be said to be abnormal course conditions because a divot is supposed to be repaired when a player makes one, hence, it should be ground under repair.

-OB is still a hazard you are not allowed to play out of.  It should not have a stroke and distance penalty even if you simply look at it from a pace of play perspective.  There are plenty of times where people are playing a course they are unfamiliar with (most people play courses that don't have caddies you know) and go OB even though they had no reason to believe they did off the tee.  2 strokes is even a dumb MLR because it is an arbitrary penalty amount for something that really is just an unplayable hazard.  Either make all hazards the same, or make OB the same as all other hazards.   

 

What is a hazard?

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, mshills said:

 

What is a hazard?

 

I am not going to explain every little detail for you guys.  I poked the hornets nest of rules shills and I am beyond bored with replying to people that can't have a normal conversation and comprehend the opposing view that is the reason this thread and threads regarding rules even exist.  

 

Keep on thinking the rules of golf are perfect, easily understandable, not confusing in the slightest ever, not too many, not contradictory and not stupid all you want.  I will poke you guys again later when I feel like having some fun fighting the good fight in here on behalf of golfers who loathe stupid rules.  Until then, discuss amongst yourselves how great the rules of golf are and how dumb anyone that doesn't like them are.

Edited July 27, 2023 by clevited

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Very mature of you.  Your parents must be proud.

 

Ack, I'm crushed. 😞

[Mr. Bean]

45 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Nobody should need to STUDY the rules,

 

I have been a referee in four different sports and each of those need studying of the Rules. Unlike golf those need also studying of how to referee the matches, especially in contact sports like hockey, football, basket ball, handball, etc.

 

Your quest is simply silly. But I tell you what. As you find Rules of Golf silly stop playing golf and start another sports with no silly Rules. Good luck in finding one 😂

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I am up to date, I think you just misunderstood what I said.

 

-Practice swing, meaning, touching grass is ok in a dry hazard, but not in a bunker or waste area.

 

 

Oh my... you really should stop digging...