Why is there such contempt for The Rules?

[tatertot]

47 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

 

As simple as this ruling was. It was made difficult cause in the rule book it says this. 

b. Announcing Play of Provisional Ball

Before the stroke is made, you must announce that you are going to play a provisional ball.

It is not enough for you only to say that you are playing another ball or are playing again.

You must use the word “provisional” or otherwise clearly indicate that you are playing the ball provisionally under Rule 18.3.

If you did not announce this (even if you intended to play a provisional ball) and played a ball from where the previous stroke was made, that ball is your ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

Now if this was me. And the guy was announcing that he is gonna hit a "provisional". I'm not gonna knit pick at that. And penalize the player. Cause I know what his intentions are. This is something that the guys were saying that in the rules book. The rules is clearly written down as "provisional ball". So was the guys right or wrong? Should my friend have been able to play from the left rough? We tried to use our best judgment and so did they. At the end of the round it wasn't brought up cause we left right after knowing that staying wouldn't get us anything.

You ran into the not-so-uncommon species known as "expertus ignoramus" ... This is Latin for wannabe rules expert who is actually ignorant of the rules. Worst of both worlds. Avoid at all costs, as they cause headaches and fistfights for everyone who encounters them.

[Jeff58]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:07 PM, SNIPERBBB said:

Write us a simple rule for golf. 

 

 

 

If you hit your ball into rough or wooded area, you can look for if for a minute if you want. If you can’t find it, put another ball on the fairway near where the ball entered the area and play it there.

 

If your ball comes to rest in a position where you can’t hit it effectively, or that may cause injury to you or your equipment, move it to a nearby location and hit from there.

 

If your ball comes to rest in a sand trap, try once to hit it out. If you don’t, move it to a grass area behind the trap.

 

Such simple rules are helpful, make the game more enjoyable, speed up play, and perhaps most importantly remove the inclination to intentionally not follow a complex and obscure rule set.

Just IMO

 

Attempting to hold casual golfers to the complete USGA rule set is the definition of absurdity, and the reality is that, outside of competition, virtually no one is better for having made the attempt.

 

Two examples- “Rory Drop” thread on this forum. A highly qualified rules official and the USGA itself do not agree on the ruling. The issue is openly discussed for several weeks among numerous knowledgeable people, and the exact response is debated to the point that the threat is locked. By holding casual players to the same standard, we are expecting them to make this type of decision correctly in real time. No and No.

 

You’re playing behind a foursome whose likely scores are well over 100, but have spent considerable time acquainting themselves with the rules. They search for the maximum time for each lost ball. They return to the tee to rehit as required. They conscientiously wait for each other to hit and hole out every time. After your 6+ hour round, you are overwhelmed with admiration for their performance and congratulate them on their adherence to the rules?

[iacas]

Those are really badly written rules, and they greatly change the actual game of golf. Can't get out of a bunker? We already have a rule that lets you get out… for two penalty strokes. Or stroke and distance.

 

38 minutes ago, Jeff58 said:

If your ball comes to rest in a position where you can’t hit it effectively, or that may cause injury to you or your equipment, move it to a nearby location and hit from there.

 

Wow, I might never fail to break par again. Imagine all the possibly injurious spots in which I might find my ball!

 

The Rory Drop thing was a rare occurrence. You still see discussions about rules in other sports, too.

 

The other example you gave is completely made up. I can play by the rules and play 18 holes, with a fellow player or two, in under 2 (as a twosome) or 2.5 hours (as a threesome).

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, Jeff58 said:

 

If you hit your ball into rough or wooded area, you can look for if for a minute if you want. If you can’t find it, put another ball on the fairway near where the ball entered the area and play it there.

 

If your ball comes to rest in a position where you can’t hit it effectively, or that may cause injury to you or your equipment, move it to a nearby location and hit from there.

 

If your ball comes to rest in a sand trap, try once to hit it out. If you don’t, move it to a grass area behind the trap.

 

Such simple rules are helpful, make the game more enjoyable, speed up play, and perhaps most importantly remove the inclination to intentionally not follow a complex and obscure rule set.

Just IMO

 

Attempting to hold casual golfers to the complete USGA rule set is the definition of absurdity, and the reality is that, outside of competition, virtually no one is better for having made the attempt.

 

Two examples- “Rory Drop” thread on this forum. A highly qualified rules official and the USGA itself do not agree on the ruling. The issue is openly discussed for several weeks among numerous knowledgeable people, and the exact response is debated to the point that the threat is locked. By holding casual players to the same standard, we are expecting them to make this type of decision correctly in real time. No and No.

 

You’re playing behind a foursome whose likely scores are well over 100, but have spent considerable time acquainting themselves with the rules. They search for the maximum time for each lost ball. They return to the tee to rehit as required. They conscientiously wait for each other to hit and hole out every time. After your 6+ hour round, you are overwhelmed with admiration for their performance and congratulate them on their adherence to the rules?

Well all those situations you list can be gotten out of with an unplayable lie.

 

USGA/R&A isn't going to send a SWAT team if you don't  want to play by the rules as written.  What most of us care about is competition which most people playing golf don't care about. Personally I think handicaps should only be based on competition scores for that reason.

 

As to the Rory Drop...that was an error of judgment not really a rules issue. I officiate basketball and softball and judgement is always a touchy subject because two officials looking at the same play from the same angle might see completely different things. 

[blades_are_life]

4 hours ago, Jeff58 said:

If your ball comes to rest in a position where you can’t hit it effectively, or that may cause injury to you or your equipment, move it to a nearby location and hit from there.

With a penalty stroke?

[North Butte]

I make no effort to keep up with the ever-changing Rules but I believe there are either Rules or local Rule examples to cover all three of Jeff's proposals. They just involved adding penalty strokes (2, 1 and 2 for the lost ball, unplayable and bunker respectively if I recall correctly). 

 

So he's basically saying, state those three situations in a way that's easy to understand and figure "casual golfers" are probably going to just skip the penalty strokes in each case. 

 

If we're talking about people who couldn't possibly break 100 if they really played golf by the Rules, it's of no matter to anyone for them to skip a dozen penalty strokes and shoot a so-called "96" instead of 108 for their casual round.

[SNIPERBBB]

4 hours ago, North Butte said:

I make no effort to keep up with the ever-changing Rules but I believe there are either Rules or local Rule examples to cover all three of Jeff's proposals. They just involved adding penalty strokes (2, 1 and 2 for the lost ball, unplayable and bunker respectively if I recall correctly). 

 

So he's basically saying, state those three situations in a way that's easy to understand and figure "casual golfers" are probably going to just skip the penalty strokes in each case. 

 

If we're talking about people who couldn't possibly break 100 if they really played golf by the Rules, it's of no matter to anyone for them to skip a dozen penalty strokes and shoot a so-called "96" instead of 108 for their casual round.

There's no need to state those situations separately. If you want to make a Golf Rules for Dummies book you could list those of examples of how you could use the unplayable lie rule. The resultant book would rival War and Peace for length. 

 

The rule is quite simple. 

 

"A player is the only person who may decide to treat their ball as unplayable by taking penalty relief under Rule 19.2 or 19.3.

 

• Unplayable ball relief is allowed anywhere on the course, except in a penalty area.

 

• If a ball is unplayable in a penalty area, the player’s only relief option is to take penalty relief under Rule 17."

[North Butte]

4 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

There's no need to state those situations separately. If you want to make a Golf Rules for Dummies book you could list those of examples of how you could use the unplayable lie rule. The resultant book would rival War and Peace for length. 

 

The rule is quite simple. 

 

"A player is the only person who may decide to treat their ball as unplayable by taking penalty relief under Rule 19.2 or 19.3.

 

• Unplayable ball relief is allowed anywhere on the course, except in a penalty area.

 

• If a ball is unplayable in a penalty area, the player’s only relief option is to take penalty relief under Rule 17."

Of course if you wanted a really, truly simple Rule book for "casual golfers" you just say from any place on the course, even in hazards, you can drop a ball in the fairway no closer to the hole and add one stroke penalty to your score. 

 

Naturally, every "casual" group will have some Rule-lawyer trying to finagle away to gain even more advantage than such a generous Rule. You can't legislate away human nature!

[smashdn]

15 hours ago, Jeff58 said:

 

If you hit your ball into rough or wooded area, you can look for if for a minute if you want. If you can’t find it, put another ball on the fairway near where the ball entered the area and play it there.

 

If your ball comes to rest in a position where you can’t hit it effectively, or that may cause injury to you or your equipment, move it to a nearby location and hit from there.

 

If your ball comes to rest in a sand trap, try once to hit it out. If you don’t, move it to a grass area behind the trap.

 

Such simple rules are helpful, make the game more enjoyable, speed up play, and perhaps most importantly remove the inclination to intentionally not follow a complex and obscure rule set.

Just IMO

 

You get to just put a ball in the fairway if you can't find your ball?  How?  Drop or place?  Under penalty or no?

 

Again, this has to be defined.

 

15 hours ago, Jeff58 said:

Attempting to hold casual golfers to the complete USGA rule set is the definition of absurdity, and the reality is that, outside of competition, virtually no one is better for having made the attempt.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating that.

 

I don't care how you play golf so long as you don't hold me up and don't expect me to uncomfortably rush my round because you are up my rear because you rake 6 footers.

 

The point of my thread is why do these casual golfers get so bent out of shape over the application of The Rules to others' games when it doesn't impact them one way or the other?

[rogolf]

Don Cherry, a famous NHL hockey coach and commentator, is reported to have said, "You can't teach fast, and you can't fix stupid."

[Newby]

I wonder how many golfers went up the ladders and the snakes when they were kids. 

[charli]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:03 AM, SNIPERBBB said:

Which is stupid as written. That means that if you're going to first and the ball goes into DBT, you should only be getting first base because you gotten to first base . I know where these stupid rules come from because I've dealt with them for years. Keep telling them that their stupid rules are worse than the actual rules. They just want to justify their false knowledge and interpretation of the rules 

If the ball is overthrown you’re obviously safe at first and given another base. It’s very simple. Painfully annoying 

[SNIPERBBB]

45 minutes ago, charli said:

If the ball is overthrown you’re obviously safe at first and given another base. It’s very simple. Painfully annoying 

Sure but thats not true for other scenarios where a ball could go out of play. Fly ball to shallow left field with a runner on 1B. Runner thinks the ball is dropped and advances towards 2B. Ball is caught and the fielder attempts to throw the runner out at 1B but over throws the ball into DBT. What base does the runner get?

 

Same scenario but also with a runner at 2B that does tag up and is just standing on the base when the fielder makes the throw to 1B?

 

Another scenario...batter hits a single to shallow left center and attempts to go to 2B goes halfway and changes his mind and retreat toward 1B. Fielder comes up throwing to 1B and overthrows into DBT. What base does the batter-runner get?

Edited July 18, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[charli]

46 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Sure but thats not true for other scenarios where a ball could go out of play. Fly ball to shallow left field with a runner on 1B. Runner thinks the ball is dropped and advances towards 2B. Ball is caught and the fielder attempts to throw the runner out at 1B but over throws the ball into DBT. What base does the runner get?

 

Same scenario but also with a runner at 2B that does tag up and is just standing on the base when the fielder makes the throw to 1B?

 

Another scenario...batter hits a single to shallow left center and attempts to go to 2B goes halfway and changes his mind and retreat toward 1B. Fielder comes up throwing to 1B and overthrows into DBT. What base does the batter-runner get?

It’s all the same. Runner advances 

[SNIPERBBB]

8 minutes ago, charli said:

It’s all the same. Runner advances 

True..but to what base(s)? Using actual rule book the results are different but the awards are still the same.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[Kai Slater]

The reason I don't follow the rules is because it's just more fun to make up my own rules as I go along.  As others have mentioned, I don't have all day to slog through a round, following every rule.  My game is so bad, with penalty shots, OB, re-hitting off the tee, drops, etc.... I wouldn't put my playing partners through that torture, adhering to the sacred rules.  I just want to enjoy being outside, hitting the ball around, moving along at a decent pace, finishing in a timely manner.   Guys I play with pretty much stick with "ready golf" and bend the rules to have a bit more fun.

 

From my point of view, the game would not be fun if I play strictly by the rules, penalties and all, and shoot 119 while taking 6 hours to do it.

 

If I'm not playing in a tournament, why should the official rules of golf matter?

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, Kai Slater said:

If I'm not playing in a tournament, why should the official rules of golf matter?

 

Keep up the silly posts and you'll soon have your 75 for BST and we'll be free of you. 🙄

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, Kai Slater said:

The reason I don't follow the rules is because it's just more fun to make up my own rules as I go along.  As others have mentioned, I don't have all day to slog through a round, following every rule.  My game is so bad, with penalty shots, OB, re-hitting off the tee, drops, etc.... I wouldn't put my playing partners through that torture, adhering to the sacred rules.  I just want to enjoy being outside, hitting the ball around, moving along at a decent pace, finishing in a timely manner.   Guys I play with pretty much stick with "ready golf" and bend the rules to have a bit more fun.

 

From my point of view, the game would not be fun if I play strictly by the rules, penalties and all, and shoot 119 while taking 6 hours to do it.

 

If I'm not playing in a tournament, why should the official rules of golf matter?

If you are keeping a handicap then you should be playing by the rules even if it’s not in a tournament. 
 

If you aren’t keeping a handicap then do whatever you want 

[cardia10]

I think the hate is less on the "rules" but the thousands of added layers over the years. Golf used to be simple with simple rules and the ruling bodies have overcomplicated it. We are more worried about distance yet hit the perfect drive and you have to play from an unfilled hole in the middle of the fairway while dirt areas in the rough can be marked ground under repair. I'd argue the contempt is more for the ruling bodies, many of who's board members couldn't tell you what is in the rule book they create and control.

[Nels55]

Here are the original 13 "simple" rules:
 

1.) You must Tee your Ball within a Club's length of the Hole.

2.) Your Tee must be upon the Ground.

3.) You are not to change the Ball which you Strike off the Tee.

4.) You are not to remove Stones, Bones or any Break Club, for the sake of playing your Ball, except upon the fair Green within a Club's length of your Ball.

5.) If your Ball comes among watter, or any wattery filth, you are at liberty to take out your Ball & bringing it behind the hazard and Teeing it, you may play it with any Club and allow your Adversary a Stroke for so getting out your Ball.

6.) If your Balls be found any where touching one another, You are to lift the first Ball, till you play the last.

7.) At Holling, you are to play your Ball honestly for the Hole, and not to play upon your Adversary’s Ball, not lying in your way to the Hole.

8.) If you should lose your Ball, by its being taken up, or any other way, you are to go back to the Spot, where you struck last, & drop another Ball, And allow your adversary a Stroke for the misfortune.

9.) No man at Holling his Ball, is to be allowed, to mark his way to the Hole with his Club, or anything else.

10.) If a Ball be stopp’d by any Person, Horse, Dog or anything else, The Ball so stop’d must be play’d where it lyes.

11.) If you draw your Club in Order to Strike, & proceed so far in the Stroke as to be bringing down your Club; If then, your Club shall break, in any way, it is to be Accounted a Stroke.

12.) He whose Ball lyes farthest from the Hole is obliged to play first.

13.) Neither Trench, Ditch or ****, made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholar's Holes, or the Soldier's Lines, Shall be accounted a Hazard; But the Ball is to be taken outand play’d with any Iron Club.

 

 

[jlbos83]

Every time a "the rules are too complicated" discussion comes up I think that simpler rules are possible.  But no one would like them, since there wouldn't be free relief from anything, and stroke and distance would be the only remedy for almost.  There would still be a few cases where you need a general penalty, like playing the wrong ball, for example.  But you would not need a lot of rules.  And the some people would be yelling the loudest for relief.

 

[davep043]

9 hours ago, cardia10 said:

I think the hate is less on the "rules" but the thousands of added layers over the years.

Layers have been added because the game has spread from a few isolated links courses to courses in all parts of the world, differing climates, differing geology, differing flora.  Rules have adapted to improvements in agronomy, changing technology, changing management practices.  

 

9 hours ago, cardia10 said:

I'd argue the contempt is more for the ruling bodies, many of who's board members couldn't tell you what is in the rule book they create and control.

Most of the "rules detractors" have never met any of the actual people who work on the Rules, so they rely on trite (and inaccurate) cliches like "the blue blazers crowd".   I HAVE met a few of the rules committee staff, and many are remarkably young and extremely bright people, who face a continual struggle to write rules that govern a game played on a widely variable field, and who do a pretty good job of it.  

9 hours ago, cardia10 said:

yet hit the perfect drive and you have to play from an unfilled hole

Yeah, this is the most common rules complaint I run into.  Please go to the appropriate thread (not here) and write a simple, easily and consistently interpreted rule that defines a divot hole (hole, divot replaced, filled with sand?), defines when such a hole is not longer cause for relief, and stops short of allowing relief any time your ball is in the fairway.  Only after you succeed should you come back and complain about this rule.

[cardia10]

52 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Layers have been added because the game has spread from a few isolated links courses to courses in all parts of the world, differing climates, differing geology, differing flora.  Rules have adapted to improvements in agronomy, changing technology, changing management practices.  

 

Most of the "rules detractors" have never met any of the actual people who work on the Rules, so they rely on trite (and inaccurate) cliches like "the blue blazers crowd".   I HAVE met a few of the rules committee staff, and many are remarkably young and extremely bright people, who face a continual struggle to write rules that govern a game played on a widely variable field, and who do a pretty good job of it.  

Yeah, this is the most common rules complaint I run into.  Please go to the appropriate thread (not here) and write a simple, easily and consistently interpreted rule that defines a divot hole (hole, divot replaced, filled with sand?), defines when such a hole is not longer cause for relief, and stops short of allowing relief any time your ball is in the fairway.  Only after you succeed should you come back and complain about this rule.

The divot one is so controversial yet so simple. Any area of disrepair or formerly identifiable disrepair within the fairway cut should be treated as ground under repair. As long as your competitors agree, there should be no question. On the distance rule, I’ve yet to see any data from the USGA leadership that their distance survey was any more than an opinion piece meant to sway public opinion. A true survey actually gives the person taking the survey to agree or disagree. Not agree or agree. 
 

If the USGA had open logical discussion like we do here, there would be much less mystery and contempt for their process. Their decision making feels and seems elitist and that is my issue. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by cardia10

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

As long as your competitors agree, there should be no question.

 

So in a PGA Tour event, are you going to get all 155 other players to agree? What if three of them don't?

 

😛 

 

It's OT for this topic, but no, man. Just no.

 

44 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

If the USGA had open logical discussion like we do here, there would be much less mystery and contempt for their process. Their decision making feels and seems elitist and that is my issue. 

 

When the Rules changed in 2019, they had a LOOOONG comment period that was open to ALL.

 

And, you can have open and logical discussions. Go to a Rules Seminar. They run them every spring. I think you'll find, as Dave said above… (I'll leave his response in to the divot thing, too):

 

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Most of the "rules detractors" have never met any of the actual people who work on the Rules, so they rely on trite (and inaccurate) cliches like "the blue blazers crowd".   I HAVE met a few of the rules committee staff, and many are remarkably young and extremely bright people, who face a continual struggle to write rules that govern a game played on a widely variable field, and who do a pretty good job of it.  

 

Yeah, this is the most common rules complaint I run into.  Please go to the appropriate thread (not here) and write a simple, easily and consistently interpreted rule that defines a divot hole (hole, divot replaced, filled with sand?), defines when such a hole is not longer cause for relief, and stops short of allowing relief any time your ball is in the fairway.  Only after you succeed should you come back and complain about this rule.

Edited July 26, 2023 by iacas

[cardia10]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

So in a PGA Tour event, are you going to get all 155 other players to agree? What if three of them don't?

 

😛 

 

It's OT for this topic, but no, man. Just no.

 

 

When the Rules changed in 2019, they had a LOOOONG comment period that was open to ALL.

 

And, you can have open and logical discussions. Go to a Rules Seminar. They run them every spring. I think you'll find, as Dave said above… (I'll leave his response in to the divot thing, too):

 

You typically play with one or two competitors during a tour even. If they agree, drop and move on. They take the time to mark anything out of place in the rough, yet the fairway is a minefield? 
 

They always have “comment” period and that is exactly what it is. They accept comments, listening to some of the golfers they represent may be a step in the right direction. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by cardia10

[North Butte]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

And, you can have open and logical discussions. Go to a Rules Seminar. They run them every spring. I think you'll find, as Dave said above… (I'll leave his response in to the divot thing, too):

I'm trying to imagine someone for whom the Rules are far too complicated deciding to go to a Rules seminar. It would be the single most unlikely event in human history, if not the most pointless. 

 

But that comment strikes me as emblematic of the divide between those who worship the Rules of Golf and those who think it's all a bunch of stuff and nonsense. 

[Augster]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

Layers have been added because the game has spread from a few isolated links courses to courses in all parts of the world, differing climates, differing geology, differing flora.  Rules have adapted to improvements in agronomy, changing technology, changing management practices.  

 

Most of the "rules detractors" have never met any of the actual people who work on the Rules, so they rely on trite (and inaccurate) cliches like "the blue blazers crowd".   I HAVE met a few of the rules committee staff, and many are remarkably young and extremely bright people, who face a continual struggle to write rules that govern a game played on a widely variable field, and who do a pretty good job of it.  

Yeah, this is the most common rules complaint I run into.  Please go to the appropriate thread (not here) and write a simple, easily and consistently interpreted rule that defines a divot hole (hole, divot replaced, filled with sand?), defines when such a hole is not longer cause for relief, and stops short of allowing relief any time your ball is in the fairway.  Only after you succeed should you come back and complain about this rule.

LCP in any closely mown area. 
 

Pretty simple. 🙂

 

 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

You typically play with one or two competitors during a tour even. If they agree, drop and move on. They take the time to mark anything out of place in the rough, yet the fairway is a minefield? 
 

They always have “comment” period and that is exactly what it is. They accept comments, listening to some of the golfers they represent may be a step in the right direction. 

Your rule isnt clear enough for what’s considered disrepair and what isn’t. It has to be clear that all participants understand it and play by the same understanding so that when your competitors agrees they aren’t hurting the rest of field 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

You typically play with one or two competitors during a tour even. If they agree, drop and move on.

 

Those aren't your only competitors, though. To put it another way, you missed my point.

 

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

They take the time to mark anything out of place in the rough, yet the fairway is a minefield?

 

When do they "take the time to mark anything out of place in the rough"?

 

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

They always have “comment” period and that is exactly what it is. They accept comments, listening to some of the golfers they represent may be a step in the right direction. 

 

They do listen. And often make changes based on that feedback.

 

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

I'm trying to imagine someone for whom the Rules are far too complicated deciding to go to a Rules seminar.

 

It's worth a chuckle. 😄 

 

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

But that comment strikes me as emblematic of the divide between those who worship the Rules of Golf and those who think it's all a bunch of stuff and nonsense. 

 

They're not obligated to constantly provide "open discussions," particularly when the discussions would often be between those who have thought for years about the Rules of Golf, and those who stumble upon a rule that "feels unfair" to them and think about it for a few minutes, typically failing to consider all sorts of things and ramifications and so on.

[Newby]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

LCP in any closely mown area. 
 

Pretty simple. 🙂

 

 

Carpet all fairways. All courses give a perfect lie. No time spent on LCP. No mowing costs. Easy to distinguish between fairway and rough.