Why is there such contempt for The Rules?

[smashdn]

I am a follower (member?) of a golf rules group on facebook and also I see the GolfWRX, GD, GolfWorld and PGAT, LIV, LPGA, etc. posts in my feed.  What I don't really understand is why in the world is there so much vitriol thrown at The Rules.

 

In the Golf Rules group that talk gets quickly quashed as the assumption is you are there because you are interested in following The Rules.  So the, "Who cares?  I am just out there to have fun, just drop it wherever," comments are zapped.

 

But in the other places, people just get downright hateful when it comes to The Rules.  Is it a lack of understanding or appreciation?  Or is it just Americans in general having contempt of authority bred into us?  I find it especially interesting that people have such strong opinions on rulings that don't even impact them.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Honestly? Because for most players, dutifully following EVERY rule to a T would cause scores to be higher, and players have egos. 

 

• "What do you mean I have to take two penalty strokes to drop my ball under MLR E-5 because it went OOB (or was lost)?"
• "My ball hit the green, then rolled into the water (yellow hazard). I should be able to drop it on the fringe where it crossed, not play from a drop zone! I might hit that ball in the water too!"
• "My ball is unplayable in the middle of a giant bush. Why can't I drop it in the rough 5 yards away? 2 club lengths is still in the bush!!"

I saw the below in the John Deere yesterday and snapped the pic to send to my buddies:

 

 

The NPCR is (I assume, I haven't measured it) over to the right in the rocks. But nobody could reasonably play from there. So for a casual group, someone would clearly just move over to the left and play from there. Nobody wants to damage their club playing from the cart path (none of us are sponsored and will get a free replacement of course). But the "unfair!!!!" rules don't allow that. 

 

So people get angry at the rules. Because the rules don't let them do what they want to do. 

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

2 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Honestly? Because for most players, dutifully following EVERY rule to a T would cause scores to be higher, and players have egos. 

 

• "What do you mean I have to take two penalty strokes to drop my ball under MLR E-5 because it went OOB (or was lost)?"
• "My ball hit the green, then rolled into the water (yellow hazard). I should be able to drop it on the fringe where it crossed, not play from a drop zone! I might hit that ball in the water too!"
• "My ball is unplayable in the middle of a giant bush. Why can't I drop it in the rough 5 yards away? 2 club lengths is still in the bush!!"

I saw the below in the John Deere yesterday and snapped the pic to send to my buddies:

 

 

The NPCR is (I assume, I haven't measured it) over to the right in the rocks. But nobody could reasonably play from there. So for a casual group, someone would clearly just move over to the left and play from there. Nobody wants to damage their club playing from the cart path (none of us are sponsored and will get a free replacement of course). But the "unfair!!!!" rules don't allow that. 

 

So people get angry at the rules. Because the rules don't let them do what they want to do. 

You have to admit though. A some of the rules need to relaxed a bit. I hate the "tough luck" or "deal with it". Like when my ball lands in a divot cause some A-HOLE decided its not important to fill in the divots. And I have to play as it lies. And proceed to skull F*** the heck out of it. Another example is someone trying to repair a ball mark on the green. But made it much worst and cant be repaired after several attempts. Gotta play it as it lies. 

[Colin L]

29 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Honestly? Because for most players, dutifully following EVERY rule to a T would cause scores to be higher, and players have egos. 

 

• "What do you mean I have to take two penalty strokes to drop my ball under MLR E-5 because it went OOB (or was lost)?"
• "My ball hit the green, then rolled into the water (yellow hazard). I should be able to drop it on the fringe where it crossed, not play from a drop zone! I might hit that ball in the water too!"
• "My ball is unplayable in the middle of a giant bush. Why can't I drop it in the rough 5 yards away? 2 club lengths is still in the bush!!"

I saw the below in the John Deere yesterday and snapped the pic to send to my buddies:

 

 

The NPCR is (I assume, I haven't measured it) over to the right in the rocks. But nobody could reasonably play from there. So for a casual group, someone would clearly just move over to the left and play from there. Nobody wants to damage their club playing from the cart path (none of us are sponsored and will get a free replacement of course). But the "unfair!!!!" rules don't allow that. 

 

So people get angry at the rules. Because the rules don't let them do what they want to do. 

 

[Colin L]

The player in the photo above  could take relief from the path and then take relief from the rocks but we can't see what is over to the right beyond them to know whether that would result in a better place to play from than the path if that was where the NPCR was.  It could be one of these situations where the NPCR for the rocks would be back on the path 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Colin L

[Pepperturbo]

45 minutes ago, smashdn said:

I am a follower (member?) of a golf rules group on facebook and also I see the GolfWRX, GD, GolfWorld and PGAT, LIV, LPGA, etc. posts in my feed.  What I don't really understand is why in the world is there so much vitriol thrown at The Rules.

 

In the Golf Rules group that talk gets quickly quashed as the assumption is you are there because you are interested in following The Rules.  So the, "Who cares?  I am just out there to have fun, just drop it wherever," comments are zapped.

 

But in the other places, people just get downright hateful when it comes to The Rules.  Is it a lack of understanding or appreciation?  Or is it just Americans in general having contempt of authority bred into us?  I find it especially interesting that people have such strong opinions on rulings that don't even impact them.

Yep.  People are growing ugly, nothing to keep them on the straight and narrow.  In other words, reflects a serious lack of character and cheater predisposition; they don't like wearing the truth as it hurts. 

 

Having to follow rules means no breakfast balls, do-overs, can't bump the ball and no gimmies, plus they'd have to learn about the rules to play by them; which means higher scores.

[smashdn]

46 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I saw the below in the John Deere yesterday and snapped the pic to send to my buddies:

 

I saw that too as it was happening yesterday on tv.  I think you are correct, npcr would have been in the rip rap so the path was the better of equally bad outcomes.

 

I like to follow the "you hit it there dummy" mentality.  One of the most memorable shots of my non-memorable golfing career was a long iron shot of off hard pan in the fairway while playing by myself.  I hit the green on the par five and sunk the bendy putt for eagle.  I feel like it was the golf gods rewarding me for my integrity when I could have just rolled it to some grass.

 

I don't have a problem with anyone playing the golf they want to play, provided it is not in competition of going for handicap purposes.  I play rounds all the time where I am working on something specific and am not playing for a score.

[smashdn]

42 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

You have to admit though. A some of the rules need to relaxed a bit. I hate the "tough luck" or "deal with it". Like when my ball lands in a divot cause some A-HOLE decided its not important to fill in the divots. And I have to play as it lies. And proceed to skull F*** the heck out of it. Another example is someone trying to repair a ball mark on the green. But made it much worst and cant be repaired after several attempts. Gotta play it as it lies. 

 

The overarching tenant of golf is just that, play the course as you find it, and as you are the one who hit their ball into that position, now how best can you deal with it.

[dfeldss]

IMO, its because most people don't play golf seriously (outside of WRX and similar groups). Obviously guys that play tourneys regularly you'd hope know and follow the rules. But if you're just messing around with your friends (or even playing money games where the rules are bent for everyone as long as its consistent), then I don't see the harm in that. Can't go around claiming you're a scratch though if you're playing that way.

 

To me it's like playing pickup basketball or something for most people. The rules are a little more lax compared to having a ref

[Lobby]

How many golf balls does the average golfer lose in a round?

 

Imagine how slow a round would be if everyone was rehitting off the tee box?’

[third-times-a-charm]

Theres not following the rules because you willfully want to cheat or gain advantage, and then theres not following rules because golf has some really stupid and/or convoluted rules.

 

The former mostly goes to guys playing serious and want to cheat, and the latter goes mostly to amateurs and weekend golfers who quite frankly shouldnt be following the rules by the book until they are serious.

 

Theres obviously more 'groups' to break down from the each of the above and it all comes down to how serious the round is to the people playing it. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[smashdn]

30 minutes ago, Lobby said:

How many golf balls does the average golfer lose in a round?

 

Imagine how slow a round would be if everyone was rehitting off the tee box?’

 

No, no.  Don't misconstrue the message here.  I am not advocating that everyone play by The Rules to the letter.  I am asking, why when it is necessary to play by The Rules to the letter, the general population gets so much heartburn when a ruling is made that often results in a penalty or puts that player in a bad spot (which they hit into to begin with).  People start clutching their collective pearls when a player is penalized or even dq'd through a serious breach of a should-be known rule.

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

IMO, 2 things come top of mind:

 

- Society no longer respects laws it appears, which are basically rules

- most players, not the tournament players or sticklers, don't know half the rules, because they're too long and complex for many to bother to read much less comprehend....then there's the addendums/decisions on rules which make it even more complex to know and follow the rules.

[Nels55]

I believe that the rules are really well thought out and pretty darn good.  There are few that I might like to change but others would vehemently disagree with me on that LOL. 

 

To me the biggest problem is that average golfers seem to be incapable of understanding the nearest point of relief.  Also 1 club length for relief without penalty and 2 club lengths for relief under penalty seems to be unfathomable.  I have friends who seem otherwise intelligent and have succeeded in life who will find their ball on a cart path and start measuring 2 club lengths from the ball in order to take a drop.  These guys have had the NPOCR demonstrated and explained to them many times by several different people and still they have absolutely no clue how do it.  Also if someone does understand finding the NPOCR they will say that the get stance relief when taking a drop under penalty.  I have seen scratch players who have played tournaments since they were in junior golf try to do that.  

 

What I am saying is that if someone can't understand something then they may think it is stupid.  I have no idea what the solution might be for that?

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

1 hour ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

IMO, 2 things come top of mind:

 

- Society no longer respects laws it appears, which are basically rules

- most players, not the tournament players or sticklers, don't know half the rules, because they're too long and complex for many to bother to read much less comprehend....then there's the addendums/decisions on rules which make it even more complex to know and follow the rules.

I agree with you 100%. That's why I said some the rules should be relaxed a little. But I guess some wouldn't agree. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by I'_rather_be_golfing

[Cliffy2020]

The overwhelming vast majority of golfers on the planet are casual recreational players.  They’re there to play golf, not golf rules.  It’s a nice walk in the park , whacking a little white ball amongst friends.  Have a laugh, have a cry, have a beer.  It’s a game.

 

Enter My Father...  he likes to play golf rules and he likes to play them with everybody in the group.  He plays on a goat track of a course, plays the ball down everyday, shoots a million and enjoys calling others out.  Yep, he keeps a rules book in his bag too.  He’s that guy.  If your not playing golf by the rules, then you’re not playing real golf.  
 

I haven’t played with him in years?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

The player in the photo above  could take relief from the path and then take relief from the rocks but we can't see what is over to the right beyond them to know whether that would result in a better place to play from than the path if that was where the NPCR was.  It could be one of these situations where the NPCR for the rocks would be back on the path 

 

I'm not actually sure he could claim relief from the rocks. If it's not an abnormal course condition or marked as a hazard (which would make it illegal to drop in there, thus NPCR would be left of the path), then actually dropping in there would cause you to have to declare it unplayable. 

 

I saw the stance on the path in real time but wasn't paying attention prior to that. I'd assume he'd called over a rules official to make sure he knew his legal drop options and whether he could claim relief from the rocks or something in the rules made it illegal to drop in them. 

 

That said, based on where the trees are, it's also possible that dropping left of the path would have created a stymie situation and he had a clearer window from the path... Obviously not being on site I couldn't say...

 

3 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

You have to admit though. A some of the rules need to relaxed a bit. I hate the "tough luck" or "deal with it". Like when my ball lands in a divot cause some A-HOLE decided its not important to fill in the divots. And I have to play as it lies. And proceed to skull F*** the heck out of it. Another example is someone trying to repair a ball mark on the green. But made it much worst and cant be repaired after several attempts. Gotta play it as it lies. 

 

But after spending some time in this subforum, I've realized that while the rules are sometimes penal, there is a legitimate reason for them. 

 

• Defining a "divot" is not always easy, from the standpoint of writing an objective rule. We can't go with the old "I know it when I see it" rule. It devolves into everything being LCP if you can't clearly define "divot". Just as you can't claim relief from GUR if it's not marked--because if it's not marked, it's not GUR. 
• The extra penalty for OOB compared to a hazard seems silly, until you realize the situation of what OOB might entail. It could be someone's backyard where they're having a cookout, and because you want to "cut the corner" on a dogleg you're putting them in danger. It could be a walking path where someone unrelated to the course is walking their dog. So you want to make OOB more penal than hazards, where an errant shot might only endanger a duck. 

 

That said, my buddies and I don't play everything down. We'll roll out of a divot. I'm not going to make someone declare an unplayable if they're hitting off tree roots--especially after one of our group was out of commission for a month+ for hitting off a hidden tree root and spraining his wrist. It's a casual game in a casual group. Nobody except me maintains an official handicap, and I only maintain it for my own personal tracking of progress, not to use in sanctioned comps. The only game I gamble in is against them.

 

But I'm also not going to call those rules "stupid" or chafe at them. They're there for a reason. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Because most people can't think past the end of their nose. They also tend to think that the RoG are in place to hurt them instead of the other way around. If it was really written to hurt them, the rule book would basically be:

 

Play the ball as it lies.

Ball is not holed until it comes to rest at the bottom of the hole.

If you cannot find your ball or not able to make a stroke at it, you must take a stroke and distance penalty.

Only relief would be for interference by a Wrong Green.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Cliffy2020 said:

The overwhelming vast majority of golfers on the planet are casual recreational players.  They’re there to play golf, not golf rules.  It’s a nice walk in the park , whacking a little white ball amongst friends.  Have a laugh, have a cry, have a beer.  It’s a game.

 

Enter My Father...  he likes to play golf rules and he likes to play them with everybody in the group.  He plays on a goat track of a course, plays the ball down everyday, shoots a million and enjoys calling others out.  Yep, he keeps a rules book in his bag too.  He’s that guy.  If your not playing golf by the rules, then you’re not playing real golf.  
 

I haven’t played with him in years?

 

They arent there to play golf, they're there to do a golf-like activity and escape the wife and kids for however long they told the aforementioned it would take to play.

 

“There's only one question left to ask. Who won? And what was the ... game anyway?”
James McAvoy - David Percival

[tatertot]

People think life should be "fair" and "equal" ... which they equate to mean "nothing bad should ever happen to me, even if I screw up."

[Colin L]

48 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'm not actually sure he could claim relief from the rocks. If it's not an abnormal course condition or marked as a hazard (which would make it illegal to drop in there, thus NPCR would be left of the path), then actually dropping in there would cause you to have to declare it unplayable. 

The bed of rocks is an abnormal course condition.  It is an immovable obstruction just as a gravel path is an immovable obstruction except made up of  rather smaller bits. And like a gravel path the individual stones, whatever their size, are loose impediments.   In a situation such as the one illustrated, it could be that the sensible approach would be to tie the path and the stone bed together into a single obstruction by a local rule.

[tatertot]

48 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

They arent there to play golf, they're there to do a golf-like activity and escape the wife and kids for however long they told the aforementioned it would take to play.

 

“There's only one question left to ask. Who won? And what was the ... game anyway?”
James McAvoy - David Percival

This is why nobody likes "rules guy" ... 

 

I enjoy playing by the rules, I think that's fun, and it makes golf, well, golf.

 

BUT ... the other guy paid the same green's fee I did to use the same course I am ... as long as he's keeping pace and respecting the course and other players, he can play the way he wants. I'm not better than him because I'm playing by the rules and he's not. And nobody wants to be preached at by "rules guy" after paying $$$$ to go out and do something for "fun" ... especially when most "rules guys" appear to be miserable on the course (except you, of course).

[SNIPERBBB]

7 minutes ago, tatertot said:

This is why nobody likes "rules guy" ... 

 

I enjoy playing by the rules, I think that's fun, and it makes golf, well, golf.

 

BUT ... the other guy paid the same green's fee I did to use the same course I am ... as long as he's keeping pace and respecting the course and other players, he can play the way he wants. I'm not better than him because I'm playing by the rules and he's not. And nobody wants to be preached at by "rules guy" after paying $$$$ to go out and do something for "fun" ... especially when most "rules guys" appear to be miserable on the course (except you, of course).

Casual golf I could care less about what people are doing. I only care about competition. If we're not competing...well I don't play non competitive golf lol other than practice rounds. 

[rogolf]

It's odd that most of the people that complain about the Rules are those that intentionally don't follow them.  A successful way of getting to the root cause of an issue is to ask the question "why" five times.  It would be interesting to use this technique with some of the "Rules are stupid" people to see if there is a similar root cause.

BTW, don't try the "5 whys" technique with your significant other.🙃

[ChaosTheory]

I imagine the complexity puts off many casual golfers.  Ironically they’d probably complain less if we played by the ancient rule of once in play on a hole, you can’t touch your ball until either it’s in the hole or you lose and replace it.  You’d have to accept the capricious nature of the game.  There would still be people who would not follow the rules, but there would not be so many situations that seem gray instead of black and white to the common person.

 

edit to add, The above would almost have to require match play.  Not very practical for stroke play.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Snowman9000

[North Butte]

29 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

I imagine the complexity puts off many casual golfers.  Ironically they’d probably complain less if we played by the ancient rule of once in play on a hole, you can’t touch your ball until either it’s in the hole or you lose and replace it.  You’d have to accept the capricious nature of the game.  There would still be people who would not follow the rules, but there would not be so many situations that seem gray instead of black and white to the common person.

 

edit to add, The above would almost have to require match play.  Not very practical for stroke play.

I basically do not touch my ball once in play unless it's got mud or dirt on it and I clean it before putting.

 

And 99% of the time when I lose a ball (unless it's in a lateral hazard or whatever the idiotic name they've given lateral hazards lately) I just pick up and move on to the next hole. If it's a round played for score I'll take net double bogey.

 

I've never had any patience for Rules about how many club lengths for this or how many options for taking relief for that, etc. So you could say I have "contempt" for the Rules but my feelings aren't that strong. They just aren't worth worrying about for the kind of golf I play. 

 

Given that I don't play in stroke-play tournaments, the Rules could darned near be as simple as Match Play Madness and it wouldn't make any difference in how I play. If you lose a ball or hit it in a hazard, just add a stroke and drop one at the place you hit from (or pick up and move on). If you hit in a lateral hazard, drop one next to where it went in and add a stroke. Not much needed beyond those two Rules, otherwise just don't touch it until you hole out.

 

Almost all of the stuff that makes the Rule seem impenetrable to casual golfers are about when you do or don't get one of 14-1/2 kinds of relief and what multiple options pertain to each, yada, yada, yada. That stuff can be roundly ignored with no loss at all to the casual golfer. Just play it down and putt it out. If you can't, then pick up and move on.

[mrshinsa]

Confused yet?

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/when-can-you-use-rangefinder-refresher-rules/

[klebs01]

9 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Yep.  People are growing ugly, nothing to keep them on the straight and narrow.  In other words, reflects a serious lack of character and cheater predisposition; they don't like wearing the truth as it hurts. 

 

Having to follow rules means no breakfast balls, do-overs, can't bump the ball and no gimmies, plus they'd have to learn about the rules to play by them; which means higher scores.

Breakfast balls are well within the rules. The round with the first ball was abandoned, and a new round started with the second ball. 

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

Breakfast balls are well within the rules. The round with the first ball was abandoned, and a new round started with the second ball. 

Another case of making your own rules for the day/week/month/year which don't conform to the real Rules of golf.

Whatever you decide, and I'm not concerned about it.

[sui generis]

10 hours ago, smashdn said:

I am a follower (member?) of a golf rules group on facebook and also I see the GolfWRX, GD, GolfWorld and PGAT, LIV, LPGA, etc. posts in my feed.  What I don't really understand is why in the world is there so much vitriol thrown at The Rules.

 

In the Golf Rules group that talk gets quickly quashed as the assumption is you are there because you are interested in following The Rules.  So the, "Who cares?  I am just out there to have fun, just drop it wherever," comments are zapped.

 

But in the other places, people just get downright hateful when it comes to The Rules.  Is it a lack of understanding or appreciation?  Or is it just Americans in general having contempt of authority bred into us?  I find it especially interesting that people have such strong opinions on rulings that don't even impact them.

 

Willful ignorance is a badge of honor for some. 🙄