Why is there such contempt for The Rules?

[davep043]

18 minutes ago, smashdn said:

But why in the world do people with no skin in the game get so bent out of shape when a professional (and most of the time it is a pro in a tournament) are penalized under The Rules? 

I have no idea.  So often the pro (or caddie) simply didn't read the Notice to Players (i.e. the rangefinder thing, DJ in the bunker at Whistling Straits, and others).  Other times, the pro dislikes the consequences (was it Keegan who dropped his putter on his own ball in the fairway?).  And of course the news outlets always sensationalize the issue, rules things are always "bizarre".  

For the most part, the Rules are remarkably consistent, and the more I learn, the more consistency I see.  Sure, some of the lines that need to be drawn are a little arbitrary, but that's the case with any set of Rules for any sport.

[naval2006]

We play tournaments two or three times a week so everybody is expected to play by the rules. Handicap scores are also by the rules and new players are encouraged to learn the abcs. More experienced players help with rules during the round. 
 

On non tournament days nobody cares if you stick to the rules or not unless you’ve got a match going. 
 

The rules make competitions possible, otherwise it’d be a border activity. 

[MountainKing]

A lot of the rules of golf are just dumb, make very little sense or just not practical to implement on a day to day basis, especially for higher handicappers who find themselves having to utilize certain rules multiple times in a round.

 

Just one example is hitting a drive you think is OB, then hitting a provisional.  You find the drive and it's in bounds (rendering the provisional dead) but unplayable and there's no place of relief other than going back and re-teeing. On a Saturday afternoon nobody is going to trek back to re-tee unless they want to get tossed for slow play. 

 

Another being play the ball down.  It's a great rule for a tournament where GUR is going to be marked off through the course.  Most courses however aren't going through and marking every little bare patch for the weekend warriors.

 

If you play tournament golf, it's probably in your interest to play non tournament rounds by the rules so you stay familiar with them.  Of course if you're a 2 handicap that takes liberal drops, and 5 foot gimmes, you're just benefiting me so keep doing what you do.  If you don't play competitive, then just set the rules for your group that will make it fun for you guys and your day out.

[ShortGolfer]

As someone who recently became an officially became a senior citizen on a fixed income, I can offer that sometimes it just isn't practical for an old person to follow the rules.

The fourth hole is a Par 3 with OB on the right. There is a line of trees to help the ball stay in play if you slice it into the trees. A lake lies behind the trees.

The Tee Box is highly elevated, so it is impractical for us old folks to go back up the hill if we don't find our ball!

A provisional second shot may mean abandoning the first ball, as we may not be able to keep track of two balls in play at the same time!  But, it might just be hiding under some tree leaves.

There are dense woods behind the green, as well as a creek that runs along the back right side of the green.  There is also a stream that runs in front of the forward tee box.

 

If it is busy I believe the most important rule is to maintain the pace of play.  If not, go ahead and fish the ball out of the stream with your 15ft ball retriever.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[jdl]

8 hours ago, smashdn said:

This has drifted a little from my intention and that is fine, but just wanted to reiterate the question is not why don't golfers play by The Rules, I get that and the myriad of reasons why someone may not want to.

 

But why in the world do people with no skin in the game get so bent out of shape when a professional (and most of the time it is a pro in a tournament) are penalized under The Rules?  The deal with the rangefinder leading to a DQ, nonconforming putter grips leading to DQ, repairing aeration holes, etc.  Those all got people up in arms on the socials when posted.

It was interesting seeing the reaction on twitter when the final group at the US women's Open was put on the clock during the final round. So many people who've been screaming about the slow pace of play and demanding that the "rules need to be enforced" were all...BUT NOT NOW!!!!

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

20 hours ago, davep043 said:

I have no idea.  So often the pro (or caddie) simply didn't read the Notice to Players (i.e. the rangefinder thing, DJ in the bunker at Whistling Straits, and others).  Other times, the pro dislikes the consequences (was it Keegan who dropped his putter on his own ball in the fairway?).  And of course the news outlets always sensationalize the issue, rules things are always "bizarre".  

For the most part, the Rules are remarkably consistent, and the more I learn, the more consistency I see.  Sure, some of the lines that need to be drawn are a little arbitrary, but that's the case with any set of Rules for any sport.

Most rules are like that. I do several sports outside of Golf and if you have any reading comprehension at all you can really digest a 100+ page rule book pretty easily down to what seems like a page or two in your mind.  When I used to fancy myself as a computer programmer and learning different languages  it was the same way.

 

Too bad learning a second language is an endeavor of years to be able to function in it.

[st1800e]

21 hours ago, davep043 said:

the news outlets always sensationalize the issue

This, the TMZ mentality of the media.   We’re firmly in the clickbait era.   

[bobfoster]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:02 PM, davep043 said:

On 7/10/2023 at 11:37 AM, smashdn said:

But why in the world do people with no skin in the game get so bent out of shape when a professional (and most of the time it is a pro in a tournament) are penalized under The Rules? 

I have no idea.  So often the pro (or caddie) simply didn't read the Notice to Players (i.e. the rangefinder thing, DJ in the bunker at Whistling Straits, and others).  Other times, the pro dislikes the consequences (was it Keegan who dropped his putter on his own ball in the fairway?).  And of course the news outlets always sensationalize the issue, rules things are always "bizarre".  

For the most part, the Rules are remarkably consistent, and the more I learn, the more consistency I see.  Sure, some of the lines that need to be drawn are a little arbitrary, but that's the case with any set of Rules for any sport.

 

Has always puzzled me too. These people are professionals. They do golf for a living. Lawyers can't go into court on a matter without knowing the relevant case law. Construction foremen can't walk onto a jobsite without knowing local labor laws and building regulations. If you are a PGAT pro, where a single good (or bad) shot can mean winning (or losing) literally tens of thousands of dollars - and just as importantly, could cause another golfer to win or lose that same amount of money - then yeah ... there's no excuse for not knowing the damn rules. 

 

Some of the RoG may be a bit obscure, and occasionally open to interpretation (which is why pro tourneys have Rules Officials present). But (IMO at least) few are arbitrary or capricious. Most, in fact, make a lot of sense once you understand them. 

 

And, the curious thing that occurs to me about golf - most of the people @smashdn describes that complain about penalties being assessed for rules infractions most often complain about the rule itself, not about whether a player broke it. In fact, the incidents in which it turns out afterwards that a player was wrongly penalized are extremely rare. Like, maybe once or twice a season. Contrast that with most other pro sports - it isn't uncommon for a questionable or controversial call (or two) to occur almost every NFL weekend. 

 

I have no problems with playing by the RoG, and actually enjoy seeing them enforced on the pro tours. 

[SNIPERBBB]

10 hours ago, bobfoster said:

 

Has always puzzled me too. These people are professionals. They do golf for a living. Lawyers can't go into court on a matter without knowing the relevant case law. Construction foremen can't walk onto a jobsite without knowing local labor laws and building regulations. If you are a PGAT pro, where a single good (or bad) shot can mean winning (or losing) literally tens of thousands of dollars - and just as importantly, could cause another golfer to win or lose that same amount of money - then yeah ... there's no excuse for not knowing the damn rules. 

 

Some of the RoG may be a bit obscure, and occasionally open to interpretation (which is why pro tourneys have Rules Officials present). But (IMO at least) few are arbitrary or capricious. Most, in fact, make a lot of sense once you understand them. 

 

And, the curious thing that occurs to me about golf - most of the people @smashdn describes that complain about penalties being assessed for rules infractions most often complain about the rule itself, not about whether a player broke it. In fact, the incidents in which it turns out afterwards that a player was wrongly penalized are extremely rare. Like, maybe once or twice a season. Contrast that with most other pro sports - it isn't uncommon for a questionable or controversial call (or two) to occur almost every NFL weekend. 

 

I have no problems with playing by the RoG, and actually enjoy seeing them enforced on the pro tours. 

With the post 2019 rules you can summarize that most penalties are assessed, outside of hitting into penalty areas, on because a player tried to gain an advantage not intended by the rules. Mostly gone are the days of the accidental infractions. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[charli]

Simple. The rules of golf are painfully annoying instead of just as simple as possible 

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, charli said:

Simple. The rules of golf are painfully annoying instead of just as simple as possible 

Write us a simple rule for golf. 

 

 

[charli]

56 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Write us a simple rule for golf. 

 

 

Take your ball out of a divot 

[SNIPERBBB]

5 minutes ago, charli said:

Take your ball out of a divot 

What is a divot? How do you define it? What stage of repair does it have to be before it is no longer a divot? Filling it with sand make it no longer a divot? Replacing the divot make it no longer a divot?

 

The simple rule is play the ball as it lies.

Edited July 15, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, charli said:

Take your ball out of a divot 

 

Back under the bridge . . . you're clearly uninformed.

[SNIPERBBB]

8 minutes ago, charli said:

Take your ball out of a divot 

Perfect example of not being simple. If you want a simple rule, it has to answer the questions before they are even asked. If it raises questions, its not simple.

[rogolf]

30 minutes ago, charli said:

Take your ball out of a divot 

Being pedantic, but a "divot" is a loose impediment.🙃

[charli]

57 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Perfect example of not being simple. If you want a simple rule, it has to answer the questions before they are even asked. If it raises questions, its not simple.

Not perfect at all. Your explanation is exactly what I was referring to 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by charli

[SNIPERBBB]

3 minutes ago, charli said:

Not perfect at all. Your explanation was exactly what I was referring to 

 

 

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

What is a divot? How do you define it? What stage of repair does it have to be before it is no longer a divot? Filling it with sand make it no longer a divot? Replacing the divot make it no longer a divot?

 

 

Answer this.

 

Rules have to be able to answer themselves.  You can reference other rules if needed but a one line rule is not simple.

 

Lets take this out of golf for a second and lets go to Softball/Baseball.

 

Played in a slow pitch softball tournament last weekend. Rule sheet says "1 base on overthrows". Seems simple right? Absolutely not. One base from what? From when? The real rule if they deigned to ever open the book is "A thrown ball that goes into dead ball territory or becomes blocked, the runner(s) are awarded two bases from the last base legally touched at the time of the throw". More wordy but leaves no doubt as to what to do. There is one thing that could throw a monkey in the works about a base "legally touched" since it implies that you can "illegally touch a base" or not have a legally touched base to start with. But another rule deals with that so we're covered, and its an oddity that almost never happens.

[Canyonaro]

On 7/8/2023 at 2:56 AM, Newby said:

Do you ever watch soccer?

 

No, I'm American 🤣

[charli]

8 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

 

Answer this.

 

Rules have to be able to answer themselves.  You can reference other rules if needed but a one line rule is not simple.

 

Lets take this out of golf for a second and lets go to Softball/Baseball.

 

Played in a slow pitch softball tournament last weekend. Rule sheet says "1 base on overthrows". Seems simple right? Absolutely not. One base from what? From when? The real rule if they deigned to ever open the book is "A thrown ball that goes into dead ball territory or becomes blocked, the runner(s) are awarded two bases from the last base legally touched at the time of the throw". More wordy but leaves no doubt as to what to do. There is one thing that could throw a monkey in the works about a base "legally touched" since it implies that you can "illegally touch a base" or not have a legally touched base to start with. But another rule deals with that so we're covered, and its an oddity that almost never happens.

Funny you bring up softball because in my league To make the rule simple. They painted a line and if the ball goes over said line you get one base. 

[SNIPERBBB]

22 minutes ago, charli said:

Funny you bring up softball because in my league To make the rule simple. They painted a line and if the ball goes over said line you get one base. 

Which is stupid as written. That means that if you're going to first and the ball goes into DBT, you should only be getting first base because you gotten to first base . I know where these stupid rules come from because I've dealt with them for years. Keep telling them that their stupid rules are worse than the actual rules. They just want to justify their false knowledge and interpretation of the rules 

[Hawkeye77]

37 minutes ago, charli said:

Funny you bring up softball because in my league To make the rule simple. They painted a line and if the ball goes over said line you get one base. 

“If my fourth beer is half empty I’ll give myself that 8 footer” should serve you well. 

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:33 PM, charli said:

Simple. The rules of golf are painfully annoying instead of just as simple as possible 

I get what you are saying. It makes it even more difficult when playing with sticklers. For example I played in a smallish tournament yesterday and my friend and I was paired up with another pair of different members to keep everyone honest. We are on a par 5 with some tree's , a fence, and road to the left. He drives it left, we all saw it miss the tree's, land first then took a bounce left. So there is a chance it might have went into the road. My partner says he's gonna hit a provisional to the group. They give him a head nod. He tee's off into the center of the fairway. We end up finding his ball within the time limit. Ball is sitting good in the rough and has a clear shot of the green. My friend announces to the other group that he found his ball. The guys come over and tell him he can't play that ball because he didn't say he was hitting a "provisional ball". And saying "provisional" isn't enough. We start arguing with the pair about it. But my friend ended up taking his provisional ball to end the argument. Cause we ended up causing the 2 full groups to wait on the tee box.  So who's in the wrong here? How did a simple ruling become so difficult?

[Colin L]

Saying hitting a  provisional  is self-evidently  a declaration of a provisional.  It is somewhat unlikely that he meant he was going to play a provisional turnip.

 

Why did a simple ruling become so difficult?  Because, talking of turnips,  the other guys made it so by being wrong and by taking it upon themselves to tell another player what he could or couldn't do when they do not have any authority to do so.  

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I get what you are saying. It makes it even more difficult when playing with sticklers. For example I played in a smallish tournament yesterday and my friend and I was paired up with another pair of different members to keep everyone honest. We are on a par 5 with some tree's , a fence, and road to the left. He drives it left, we all saw it miss the tree's, land first then took a bounce left. So there is a chance it might have went into the road. My partner says he's gonna hit a provisional to the group. They give him a head nod. He tee's off into the center of the fairway. We end up finding his ball within the time limit. Ball is sitting good in the rough and has a clear shot of the green. My friend announces to the other group that he found his ball. The guys come over and tell him he can't play that ball because he didn't say he was hitting a "provisional ball". And saying "provisional" isn't enough. We start arguing with the pair about it. But my friend ended up taking his provisional ball to end the argument. Cause we ended up causing the 2 full groups to wait on the tee box.  So who's in the wrong here? How did a simple ruling become so difficult?

Problem was you were playing with a simpleton. Not rule simplicity. 

[davep043]

2 hours ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

. It makes it even more difficult when playing with sticklers

stickers know the rules and expect every player to follow them.  poorly informed morons don't know the rules, but expect players to do as they say.  you can combat morons with knowledge, show them the rule in the app, or follow your own judgment and let the committee make the decision.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Problem was you were playing with a simpleton. Not rule simplicity. 

 

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

stickers know the rules and expect every player to follow them.  poorly informed morons don't know the rules, but expect players to do as they say.  you can combat morons with knowledge, show them the rule in the app, or follow your own judgment and let the committee make the decision.

As simple as this ruling was. It was made difficult cause in the rule book it says this. 

b. Announcing Play of Provisional Ball

Before the stroke is made, you must announce that you are going to play a provisional ball.

It is not enough for you only to say that you are playing another ball or are playing again.

You must use the word “provisional” or otherwise clearly indicate that you are playing the ball provisionally under Rule 18.3.

If you did not announce this (even if you intended to play a provisional ball) and played a ball from where the previous stroke was made, that ball is your ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

Now if this was me. And the guy was announcing that he is gonna hit a "provisional". I'm not gonna knit pick at that. And penalize the player. Cause I know what his intentions are. This is something that the guys were saying that in the rules book. The rules is clearly written down as "provisional ball". So was the guys right or wrong? Should my friend have been able to play from the left rough? We tried to use our best judgment and so did they. At the end of the round it wasn't brought up cause we left right after knowing that staying wouldn't get us anything.

[mstuewe]

8 minutes ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

 

As simple as this ruling was. It was made difficult cause in the rule book it says this. 

b. Announcing Play of Provisional Ball

Before the stroke is made, you must announce that you are going to play a provisional ball.

It is not enough for you only to say that you are playing another ball or are playing again.

You must use the word “provisional” or otherwise clearly indicate that you are playing the ball provisionally under Rule 18.3.

If you did not announce this (even if you intended to play a provisional ball) and played a ball from where the previous stroke was made, that ball is your ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

Now if this was me. And the guy was announcing that he is gonna hit a "provisional". I'm not gonna knit pick at that. And penalize the player. Cause I know what his intentions are. This is something that the guys were saying that in the rules book. The rules is clearly written down as "provisional ball". So was the guys right or wrong? Should my friend have been able to play from the left rough? We tried to use our best judgment and so did they. At the end of the round it wasn't brought up cause we left right after knowing that staying wouldn't get us anything.

He used the word “provisional” so it’s a provisional.  The rule is simple, you were golfing with a jerk.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, mstuewe said:

He used the word “provisional” so it’s a provisional.  The rule is simple, you were golfing with a jerk.

Yes. It was clearly declared to be a provisional.

 

The rules weren’t at fault here. The morons you were playing with were.

[rogolf]

A Clarification does exist:

18.3b/1 – Statements That “Clearly Indicate” That a Provisional Ball Is Being Played

When playing a provisional ball, it is best if the player uses the word “provisional” in their announcement. However, other statements that make it clear that the player’s intent is to play a provisional ball are acceptable.

Examples of announcements that clearly indicate the player is playing a provisional ball include:

• “I’m playing a ball under Rule 18.3.”

• “I’m going to play another just in case.”

Examples of announcements that do not clearly indicate the player is  playing a provisional ball and mean that the player would be putting a ball into play under stroke and distance include:

• “I’m going to re-load.”

• “I’m going to play another.”

Edited July 16, 2023 by rogolf