Why is there such contempt for The Rules?

[davep043]

23 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I am up to date, I think you just misunderstood what I said.

 

-Practice swing, meaning, touching grass is ok in a dry hazard, but not in a bunker or waste area.

 

Perhaps a bit more study is required, there's no penalty for "touching grass" during a practice swing either in a bunker or in a "waste area", by which I'm guessing you mean sandy portions of the General Area.  

[Newby]

19 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I am up to date, I think you just misunderstood what I said.

 

-Practice swing, meaning, touching grass is ok in a dry hazard, but not in a bunker or waste area.

 

   

Why can't you touch grass in a waste area? Or in a 'wet' hazard?

 

Where do you get grass in a bunker?

 

Incidentally, an area maybe hazardous but it may not be a 'hazard'. Perhaps you aren't as up to date as you claim. 'Hazard' is longer in the Rules. 

[mshills]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I have been a referee in four different sports and each of those need studying of the Rules. Unlike golf those need also studying of how to referee the matches, especially in contact sports like hockey, football, basket ball, handball, etc.

 

Your quest is simply silly. But I tell you what. As you find Rules of Golf silly stop playing golf and start another sports with no silly Rules. Good luck in finding one 😂

 

You aren't kidding on this.  My kids play soccer and basketball at a reasonable level.  One son is a rather accomplished wrestler.  All of those sports have rules that need orders of magnitude more study than golf...because of some subjectivity, the in-the-moment decisions, and particularly for wrestling, if the call is wrong or is not made quickly enough, a wrestler can get injured.

[Colin L]

33 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I am up to date, I think you just misunderstood what I said.

 

-Practice swing, meaning, touching grass is ok in a dry hazard, but not in a bunker or waste area.

-Divot is arguably the definition of ground under repair.  Why do you think it comes up so many times in the forums.  Casual water says hi as well.  A divot can be said to be abnormal course conditions because a divot is supposed to be repaired when a player makes one, hence, it should be ground under repair.

-OB is still a hazard you are not allowed to play out of.  It should not have a stroke and distance penalty even if you simply look at it from a pace of play perspective.  There are plenty of times where people are playing a course they are unfamiliar with (most people play courses that don't have caddies you know) and go OB even though they had no reason to believe they did off the tee.  2 strokes is even a dumb MLR because it is an arbitrary penalty amount for something that really is just an unplayable hazard.  Either make all hazards the same, or make OB the same as all other hazards.   

I'm trying to be helpful here.  I fear you are making it very difficult for yourself to be heard and it's unfortunate that you are meeting with some derision and put down comments but mostly you bring it on yourself.   And here's why.  You have no sooner said that you know the rules and are up to date than you say something that shows you clearly don't know them and are most obviously out of date.  For example a practice swing is ok in a dry hazard?  There is no such thing as a dry hazard in the Rules and I've no idea what you mean by it.  You say it's not ok to make a practice swing  in a  waste area.  A waste area isn't defined in the rules and since it means just part of the general area made up of sand or soil with scant vegetation on it, there is nothing to stop you taking practice swings.  A bunker (a defined area of the course but not a "hazard") is the only part of the course in which you cannot touch the ground with practice swings, ground your club behind the ball or touch the ground behind your ball with your backswing. Your understanding of and ideas about out of bounds, actually complicate what is already a simple situation (you've hacked your ball off the course) in an attempt to cloak what is just an opinion that the penalty is too severe in some spurious logic.  I could go on as there so much material , but won't.  You will be aware that the Rules were hugely simplified in 2019. Do you recognise and maybe approve of the direction in which it is going?

 

Most, if not all of us have studied (yes studied) the Rules so that we can put something back into our sport that helps other golfers to take part in the multitude of competitions that take place around the world.  And we do that by playing our part in ensuring these competitions are run fairly on well-marked courses.  We do it to be of service to other golfers - including your good self.  Excuse us then if we get exasperated by what you say.  If it were accurate, grounded in the Rules and constructive comment, I'm sure we would embrace your thoughts and ideas.   But as it stands .... oh dear.

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Colin L

[bladehunter]

I’d just like to say.  Although I have no part of me that agrees with @clevited here or in other places.  Somehow I think he’s a good egg. I respect a passionate opinion , I’d be hypocritical if I didn’t.   😂.   Back away slowly man.  This is the wrong hornets next to kick.   Go fight the hogan heroes guys.  😜.  They’ll go to dinner in a few minutes and forget to come back.  

[tatertot]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

 

I am not going to explain every little detail for you guys.  I poked the hornets nest of rules shills and I am beyond bored with replying to people that can't have a normal conversation and comprehend the opposing view that is the reason this thread and threads regarding rules even exist.  

 

Keep on thinking the rules of golf are perfect, easily understandable, not confusing in the slightest ever, not too many, not contradictory and not stupid all you want.  I will poke you guys again later when I feel like having some fun fighting the good fight in here on behalf of golfers who loathe stupid rules.  Until then, discuss amongst yourselves how great the rules of golf are and how dumb anyone that doesn't like them are.

You just admitted to not understanding the rules and being a troll. You have zero credibility and sound like a child. Whatever you tried to do here didn't work.

[clevited]

3 minutes ago, tatertot said:

You just admitted to not understanding the rules and being a troll. You have zero credibility and sound like a child. Whatever you tried to do here didn't work.

 

Them are fighting words and I don't back down from a fight.  You sound like an immature child right now bub and your credibility just went to zero.  See, I can do that too.

 

P.S. you are also a troll 😉

Edited July 27, 2023 by clevited

[tatertot]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

 

Them are fighting words and I don't back down from a fight.  You sound like an immature child right now bub and your credibility just went to zero.  See, I can do that too.

You just literally used the "I am rubber, you are glue" strategy. Thanks for proving my point.

[clevited]

12 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I’d just like to say.  Although I have no part of me that agrees with @clevited here or in other places.  Somehow I think he’s a good egg. I respect a passionate opinion , I’d be hypocritical if I didn’t.   😂.   Back away slowly man.  This is the wrong hornets next to kick.   Go fight the hogan heroes guys.  😜.  They’ll go to dinner in a few minutes and forget to come back.  

 

Your tatertot friend sucked me right back in, I am happy to take on all of you.

[mshills]

 

Nice job man.  Real nice.  All I did was ask a simple question and you punked out.  Oh well.

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, tatertot said:

You just literally used the "I am rubber, you are glue" strategy. Thanks for proving my point.

 

Thanks for proving my point as well.  We can do this dance all day if you want.  You literally came in here to post a troll and immature insult.  You don't want this fight man.  I will be in here forever taking on all of you to nail my points home and no matter how dumb you think I am, and how many insults you throw my way, I won't back down and you will learn something about the people that play the game at large and how they view the many idiotic rules of golf.

 

You guys seem to want your bubble of thought in here, but I am here to pop that bubble.

Edited July 27, 2023 by clevited

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Your tatertot friend sucked me right back in, I am happy to take on all of you.

Full Rambo !  I love it ! 😂.  I’m not arguing anymore.  I was being genuine above.  This is the hottest LZ on the site !! 

[clevited]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Full Rambo !  I love it ! 😂.  I’m not arguing anymore.  I was being genuine above.  This is the hottest LZ on the site !! 

 

I ain't scared. 😉

[GwrxMod]

Cleaned up. Keep it civil. 

[Schulzmc]

There are underlying principles that govern the rules of golf, and understanding those principles helps resolve some of the perceived “conflicts” and “stupidity” of the rules. 

 

1. You play the course as you find it.

2. You play the ball as it lies.

3. Leaving the course is worse than entering a penalty area on the course.

 

When you consider those, playing out of a divot, and going back to the tee after a ball is OB or lost, make a whole lot more sense. 

 

And in any argument you lose credibility when you exaggerate things to make a point. Saying all serious golfers violate the rules almost every round, and a group of friends come across a rule they don’t understand or remember every round is just silly. It’s hard to take the rest of the argument seriously after that.

[rogolf]

Edited July 27, 2023 by rogolf

[Louis_Posture]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:30 AM, smashdn said:

  Is it a lack of understanding or appreciation?  

Yes, exactly.

[Pepperturbo]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:19 AM, Soloman1 said:

Professional golfers playing practice rounds before a tournament may be the biggest "cheaters."

 

Apparently the mission of the USGA is keep new people from taking up golf. It's like studying for ground school before learning to fly. Serious game for serious people only. Calling people cheaters doesn't make it a friendly game for newcomers.

 

"Don't do that! That's cheating!"

 

If the USGA was serious (because they're serious people), make 3x5 cards for courses to give people some Level-1, basic rules and etiquette. Let them ease into more pedantic rules gradually.

 

But no, let's call people "cheaters."

 

People should feel grateful they don't have to wear dress shirts and neckties, which I'm sure the USGA would endorse.

Sorry, but your first and last statements are rather absurd.  It's a practice round where pros hit multiple balls on various holes to see how the hole plays; they seldom keep score; I've played with a many pros during practice rounds, seen it with my own eyes.  Sure, some touring pros have cheated, (man is not perfect) but most people tackling the game do NOT cheat in events where they have to abide by the rules.  If someone is playing by himself, he can play however he chooses.

 

The USGA is doing their best to promote golf.  An organization like USGA and R&A can't promote golf without including the rules of the game, as both have professional levels of play guided by said rules, which set the tone. 

 

Try playing chess without the rules, nobody would play with you.   Try playing Checkers without abiding by some simple rules.  Don't abide, you're cheating.  Try playing Scrabble without rules, people make up words, it's called cheating.  Everyone wants to be called a winner, even when they are NOT winners but lazy and cheaters.

 

All leagues, including tennis, even Pickleball have rules, don't respect the rules, you're cheating.  Hell, I was playing 2-Man Beach V-Ball when it began back in the 70s on the beach, we created rules, rules grew as tournaments came into existence.  Yet, still today people play VB on the beach without rules. 

 

Growing the game means attracting people to the sport that want to play by the sports rules.  Neither the USGA nor R&A demand people play by the rules UNLESS they want a handicap or play in USGA or club events; otherwise play, however, just don't expect people not to call them cheaters.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[clevited]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

 

If trolling is disagreeing with you rules enthusiast, then I am a troll.  That however gives me the freedom to label you all that disagree with me the same.

 

I assure you though, I am not interested in trolling but treat me poorly and I'll do the same.  I believe in an eye for an eye.

[Soloman1]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Sorry, but your first and last statements are rather absurd.  It's a practice round where pros hit multiple balls on various holes to see how the hole plays; they seldom keep score; I've played with a many pros during practice rounds, seen it with my own eyes.  Sure, some touring pros have cheated, (man is not perfect) but most people tackling the game do NOT cheat in events where they have to abide by the rules.  If someone is playing by himself, he can play however he chooses.

 

The USGA is doing their best to promote golf.  An organization like USGA and R&A can't promote golf without including the rules of the game, as both have professional levels of play guided by said rules, which set the tone. 

 

Try playing chess without the rules, nobody would play with you.   Try playing Checkers without abiding by some simple rules.  Don't abide, you're cheating.  Try playing Scrabble without rules, people make up words, it's called cheating.  Everyone wants to be called a winner, even when they are NOT winners but lazy and cheaters.

 

All leagues, including tennis, even Pickleball have rules, don't respect the rules, you're cheating.  Hell, I was playing 2-Man Beach V-Ball when it began back in the 70s on the beach, we created rules, rules grew as tournaments came into existence.  Yet, still today people play VB on the beach without rules. 

 

Growing the game means attracting people to the sport that want to play by the sports rules.  Neither the USGA nor R&A demand people play by the rules UNLESS they want a handicap or play in USGA or club events; otherwise play, however, just don't expect people not to call them cheaters.

 

Apparently you have not read the Terms and Conditions in my signature. 🙂

 

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, clevited said:

I am up to date…

 

… hazard…  waste area… casual water… hazard

 

Right over your head.

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, clevited said:

 

If trolling is disagreeing with you rules enthusiast, then I am a troll.  That however gives me the freedom to label you all that disagree with me the same.

 

I assure you though, I am not interested in trolling but treat me poorly and I'll do the same.  I believe in an eye for an eye.

I see that my atttempt to offer some reasonable advice on a reason for the reaction you get was a bit of waste of time.  You obviously want that kind of reaction and actively seek it out for your own perverse enjoyment.  So be it, but goodbye.   

[smashdn]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:07 PM, North Butte said:

I'm trying to imagine someone for whom the Rules are far too complicated deciding to go to a Rules seminar. It would be the single most unlikely event in human history, if not the most pointless. 

 

But that comment strikes me as emblematic of the divide between those who worship the Rules of Golf and those who think it's all a bunch of stuff and nonsense. 

 

If you desire to be a Rules Official and pass the test that allows such, I bet you attend.

 

The Rules are not complicated, the application of The Rules in varying circumstances found is where the stumble occurs. 

 

Your comment strikes me as coming from someone with little to no knowledge of how competitive golf works.

[sui generis]

19 minutes ago, smashdn said:

If you desire to be a Rules Official and pass the test that allows such, I bet you attend.

 

The Rules are not complicated, the application of The Rules in varying circumstances found is where the stumble occurs. 

 

How do you eat an elephant . . . one bite at a time. 

 

For the merely curious, that is those for whom a better grasp of the Rules will make their play more enjoyable, the PGA/USGA Rules Workshop may be more time (4 days) and money (> $1000 for tuition, hotel and bar bill) than is warranted.

 

The ruling bodies know that and both sites, the R&A and USGA, offer free Rules education.

 

For a "one bite at a time" start with:  https://rules.usga.org/product/rules-101/

 

On the other hand, if one's view is that the Rules are stupid and made by toffs, then don't bother. Enlightenment might be too painful. 😉

[clevited]

I can see the handful of you in here that are getting seemingly emotionally triggered by a dissenting voice and are completely void of any ability to see the other side.  It is like someone at the DMV saying "oh, this paperwork is all very simple, very simple, don't you dare mock it and you saying you are confused means you are stupid and need education".  No.  You guys need to open your eyes and understand that I am not even close to the only one that thinks the rules of golf are confusing, too many, and contradictory in many circumstances.  Again, there are tons of videos online about rules that people frequently don't apply correctly or misunderstand, forget about etc.  There are rules that are petty and not needed as well in many cases (keep in mind, I am not just talking tour golf, I am talking golf at large which is where most of this issue occurs).  

 

I have never stepped into a thread with as many closed minded individuals not willing to have a real conversation about something and look at it at a different angle.  You guys really need to grow up, step out of your comfort zone and think about something outside of your bubble.  I am in here describing why there is contempt for the rules, you are dissing that effort with your holier than thou attitudes.

[clevited]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

I see that my atttempt to offer some reasonable advice on a reason for the reaction you get was a bit of waste of time.  You obviously want that kind of reaction and actively seek it out for your own perverse enjoyment.  So be it, but goodbye.   

 

Don't accuse me of such a thing.  I am not looking /seeking any kind of reaction.  I want honest conversation and as soon as I stepped in here with a point of view you all don't agree with, you immediately mocked, put down and try to rail road me out of here.  

 

When people do that, it just makes me want to be in here more.  That means I am saying things you don't want to hear, think about or discuss.  That means at some point, you guys might open your eyes and be like, hmmmm maybe that guy was right, maybe this should be improved.  Others of you will stay on your high horse and mock me for using the word hazard still instead of penalty area.  I mean, that is right up there with correcting someone's grammar or spelling online.  Even if you want to mock me about that, including my mistakenly mentioning waste areas in my discussion about grounding a practice swing, I am making my own point.  I read the rules quite frequently.  I try to learn them and still, I get them jumbled up in my head from time to time.  That is normal human stuff.  That means they need work if even myself, who makes a reasonably strong effort to learn them as well as he can gets them jumbled now and then or forgets how one goes entirely one day when the need comes up on the course.

 

Lets have an honest discussion here.  Stop nitpicking my "knowledge" and play devils advocate if you must in order to get through to your heads the real problems the rules have.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by clevited

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

I can see the handful of you in here that are getting seemingly emotionally triggered by a dissenting voice and are completely void of any ability to see the other side.  It is like someone at the DMV saying "oh, this paperwork is all very simple, very simple, don't you dare mock it and you saying you are confused means you are stupid and need education".  No.  You guys need to open your eyes and understand that I am not even close to the only one that thinks the rules of golf are confusing, too many, and contradictory in many circumstances.  Again, there are tons of videos online about rules that people frequently don't apply correctly or misunderstand, forget about etc.  There are rules that are petty and not needed as well in many cases (keep in mind, I am not just talking tour golf, I am talking golf at large which is where most of this issue occurs).  

 

I have never stepped into a thread with as many closed minded individuals not willing to have a real conversation about something and look at it at a different angle.  You guys really need to grow up, step out of your comfort zone and think about something outside of your bubble.  I am in here describing why there is contempt for the rules, you are dissing that effort with your holier than thou attitudes.

People have explained why somethings can’t be applied like calling it GUR and the pro lift clean and place advocates refuse to accept that even though GUR is clearly defined and want the committee to break the rules. 
 

It’s been explained the game not on the tee box or green is play it as it lies so the rules used on the green aren’t applicable to the fairway and rough so the default is ball down unless currently stated in the rulebook for getting relief. If one wants to get relief from a divot there has to be a rule to define what is and isn’t a divot so that it’s clear to everyone that plays the game and fills the role of rules official so that it can be applied equally across the board. We have asked for those in favor of relief to write a rule that can do that and yet nobody has and the ones that get proposed basically change the game being play it as it lies to you get free relief from any deformity in the fairway.

 

The open discussion has been there but the pro relief crowd keeps saying things simple and everyone knows what a divot  is, even though it’s been explained over and over not all divots are the same and there’s has to be a point when a divot isn’t a divot anymore.

 

The pro relief crowd wants to have free relief from a bad break but doesn’t want to be penalized for a good break.

 

The pro relief crowd keeps calling the rules stupid, those who want to follow them enthusiasts like it’s a bad thing and that the rules should be enforced liberally based on what the golfer wants that day even though no other sport is done that way. None of those helps open discussion.
 

Im pretty sure that all the people who are not in favor of relief from a divot without a clear defined rule would be open to more discussion if one of the pro relief people would actually write a serious rule that clearly defined a divot and when relief can and can’t be taken.

[clevited]

12 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

People have explained why somethings can’t be applied like calling it GUR and the pro lift clean and place advocates refuse to accept that even though GUR is clearly defined and want the committee to break the rules. 
 

It’s been explained the game not on the tee box or green is play it as it lies so the rules used on the green aren’t applicable to the fairway and rough so the default is ball down unless currently stated in the rulebook for getting relief. If one wants to get relief from a divot there has to be a rule to define what is and isn’t a divot so that it’s clear to everyone that plays the game and fills the role of rules official so that it can be applied equally across the board. We have asked for those in favor of relief to write a rule that can do that and yet nobody has and the ones that get proposed basically change the game being play it as it lies to you get free relief from any deformity in the fairway.

 

The open discussion has been there but the pro relief crowd keeps saying things simple and everyone knows what a divot  is, even though it’s been explained over and over not all divots are the same and there’s has to be a point when a divot isn’t a divot anymore.

 

The pro relief crowd wants to have free relief from a bad break but doesn’t want to be penalized for a good break.

 

The pro relief crowd keeps calling the rules stupid, those who want to follow them enthusiasts like it’s a bad thing and that the rules should be enforced liberally based on what the golfer wants that day even though no other sport is done that way. None of those helps open discussion.
 

Im pretty sure that all the people who are not in favor of relief from a divot without a clear defined rule would be open to more discussion if one of the pro relief people would actually write a serious rule that clearly defined a divot and when relief can and can’t be taken.

 

I have already done this in the other thread.  If you just allow for any blemish, real or not that is under the ball when in the fairway to merit a free drop a couple inches behind (you can even say no cleaning of the ball may be done, you can even say the ball must be carefully placed 2 inches or something behind the original resting spot to eliminate any mud from being taken off during drop if you want).  I mean, we already make exceptions for all kinds of things in the game, this one is just more of the same to make it consistent and make it a reward to hit the fairway.  Maybe it is fair that no such option is ok anywhere else?  Like a divot in the rough or blemish in the rough is not an exception as it is expected that the rough is not an ideal surface to hit from and thus you must be punished in whatever way luck may have it.  

 

These are discussions worth having.  I understand the desire to keep things the same.  I get that.  But I also see inconsistency, contradictions that were created from other exceptions being allowed over time.  Let us make the rules as concise, clear, consistent and fair as we reasonably can.  Remember, I am also ok with just saying screw it to all of the exceptions and making the game truly play it as it lies at all times.  That would simplify the game rules immensely. 

 

I hope more people can see where I am coming from and come to have a meaningful conversation about the rules at large with me in here.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by clevited

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, clevited said:

I can see the handful of you in here that are getting seemingly emotionally triggered by a dissenting voice and are completely void of any ability to see the other side.  It is like someone at the DMV saying "oh, this paperwork is all very simple, very simple, don't you dare mock it and you saying you are confused means you are stupid and need education".  No.  You guys need to open your eyes and understand that I am not even close to the only one that thinks the rules of golf are confusing, too many, and contradictory in many circumstances.  Again, there are tons of videos online about rules that people frequently don't apply correctly or misunderstand, forget about etc.  There are rules that are petty and not needed as well in many cases (keep in mind, I am not just talking tour golf, I am talking golf at large which is where most of this issue occurs).  

 

I have never stepped into a thread with as many closed minded individuals not willing to have a real conversation about something and look at it at a different angle.  You guys really need to grow up, step out of your comfort zone and think about something outside of your bubble.  I am in here describing why there is contempt for the rules, you are dissing that effort with your holier than thou attitudes.

 

 

You'll have to give some circumstances.  The overarching rule is quite simple, start at the teeing ground, put the ball in play, don't touch it until you have holed out, and count your strokes.  The exceptions to that rule and the specific circumstances to proceed under in those circumstances are where there can be confusion.  When people want to or must exercise exceptions is where they run afoul in my opinion.

 

 

The point of the thread isn't really why people don't play by The Rules, it is why they get angry and so (insert adverb) hurt when The Rules are applied to others, both in circumstances where it helps a player ("He is a cheater!") or where it penalizes him ("The Rules are unfair!").  I think it funny and was wanting to understand why people get all up in their feels when that happens.

[GoGoErky]

30 minutes ago, clevited said:

have already done this in the other thread.  If you just allow for any blemish, real or not that is under the ball when in the fairway to merit a free drop a couple inches behind (you can even say no cleaning of the ball may be done, you can even say the ball must be carefully placed 2 inches or something behind the original resting spot to eliminate any mud from being taken off during drop if you want).  I mean, we already make exceptions for all kinds of things in the game, this one is just more of the same to make it consistent and make it a reward to hit the fairway.  Maybe it is fair that no such option is ok anywhere else?  Like a divot in the rough or blemish in the rough is not an exception as it is expected that the rough is not an ideal surface to hit from and thus you must be punished in whatever way luck may have it.  

Your are changing the premise of the game of play it as it lies. There has to be a reason to not play it that way. The reason has to be well defined for when you can and you can’t. Your definition basically eliminates the play it as it lies. It’s bad for the game. It eliminates some skills from the game and rewards a bad break. It’s not good for the game. From a pro level giving the best golfers in the chance to set the ball down and the ability to control spin even more makes the game easier for them and allows them a wider selection of clubs to hit with minimal risk.

This exceptions are usually due to safety concerns which has been explained in one or both of the threads.