Why is there such contempt for The Rules?

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, cardia10 said:

They take the time to mark anything out of place in the rough, yet the fairway is a minefield? 

 

Around here it is customary NOT to mark anything in the rough unless there is a severe damage and it makes playing inappropriate. Rough is supposed to be rough and in the rough you may find yourself in unpleasant lies.

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, cardia10 said:

The divot one is so controversial yet so simple.

 

As soon as you discover a method that accurately separates completely healed divot hole from an incompletely healed divot hole do come back and publish your method. Your method has to distinguish also all incompletely healed divot holes from other unevennesses on the fairway, such as marks made by shoes.

 

Good luck!

[mshills]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

Carpet all fairways. All courses give a perfect lie. No time spent on LCP. No mowing costs. Easy to distinguish between fairway and rough.

Or carry around a little mat to hit from. 

[sui generis]

33 minutes ago, mshills said:

Or carry around a little mat to hit from. 

 

Been there! Golf in the Persian Gulf in the 1970's and before. Each player's personal  square of green plastic grass and sand greens. It was good fun. 🙂

[davep043]

11 hours ago, cardia10 said:

They always have “comment” period and that is exactly what it is. They accept comments, listening to some of the golfers they represent may be a step in the right direction. 

I did comment concerning a number of the proposed 2019 rules revisions.  Several proposed rules WERE revised, one of which was the required drop height, so apparently the USGA and R&A DID listen to some of the  comments.  Of course, several of my suggested changes were NOT adopted, so while they did listen, they didn't always agree with me.  I'm fine with that.

[Newby]

29 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Been there! Golf in the Persian Gulf in the 1970's and before. Each player's personal  square of green plastic grass and sand greens. It was good fun. 🙂

Pretty well most courses over here do that in the winter.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, Newby said:

Pretty well most courses over here do that in the winter.

 

I don't remember that. I was a member of Woodbridge in Suffolk in the 1960's and later Langland Bay and Clyne, both near Swansea. Maybe in the "south" the turf could manage over the winter.

[charli]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

As soon as you discover a method that accurately separates completely healed divot hole from an incompletely healed divot hole do come back and publish your method. Your method has to distinguish also all incompletely healed divot holes from other unevennesses on the fairway, such as marks made by shoes.

 

Good luck!

If it makes you angry that your ball landed there in the middle of a fairway then it’s a divot. 

[clevited]

There are too many rules in the game of golf.  There are also too many rules that are confusing or contradictory in nature to other rules.  Rules can slow the game down too if you actually try to play by them to the T.  Like cart path rule posted earlier, nobody remembers how that works, they just plop it to the side no closer to the hole and hit it.  How much extra help are they really getting from doing that?  One can argue it is easier to hit off of the path itself except it will mess up your club some and like it was said, we aren't sponsored golfers so why would we want to do that? 

 

If I am being honest, the rules of golf being as they are is a big reason more people don't pick up the sport.  They need a common sense overhaul if you ask me.

Edited July 27, 2023 by clevited

[davep043]

53 minutes ago, clevited said:

There are also too many rules that are confusing or contradictory in nature to other rules.

Name a few, please.

54 minutes ago, clevited said:

Like cart path rule posted earlier, nobody remembers how that works

Lots of players understand the concept of Nearest Point of Complete Relief.

54 minutes ago, clevited said:

If I am being honest, the rules of golf being as they are is a big reason more people don't pick up the sport.

Name one person who thinks about going to Topgolf with his buddies for his first stab at swinging a club, and decides not to go because the Rules are too complicated.

55 minutes ago, clevited said:

They need a common sense overhaul if you ask me.

They had a major overhaul in 2019, became much simpler.  

[bladehunter]

No.  No.  No.  we’ve dumbed down society enough.  It’s time for folks to Catch up or don’t participate.    This is same for school , sports , government, diet , and the list is nearly infinite.     You have more information in your pocket that all the other humans before you combined !!!!  Use it. The rules are not hard.  I don’t know them all by heart.  But I sure can remember the ones I’ve used. Play the game , and use them.  We don’t need to change the game so the short attention spans can participate.  

[clevited]

18 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Name a few, please.

Lots of players understand the concept of Nearest Point of Complete Relief.

Name one person who thinks about going to Topgolf with his buddies for his first stab at swinging a club, and decides not to go because the Rules are too complicated.

They had a major overhaul in 2019, became much simpler.  

 

Da feck are you smoking?  Do you not play with everyday joes?  Do you not understand how an overly complicated sport is off-putting?  I've heard it from many I have tried to introduce to the sport.  OB is a rule that is contradictory.  In one hand you have hazards which you are allowed different rules than OB which is arguably an unplayable hazard.  That is just one of many contradictory rules that make no sense.  You come off as taking what I said personally, simmer down.  

Edited July 27, 2023 by clevited

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

No.  No.  No.  we’ve dumbed down society enough.  It’s time for folks to Catch up or don’t participate.    This is same for school , sports , government, diet , and the list is nearly infinite.     You have more information in your pocket that all the other humans before you combined !!!!  Use it. The rules are not hard.  I don’t know them all by heart.  But I sure can remember the ones I’ve used. Play the game , and use them.  We don’t need to change the game so the short attention spans can participate.  

 

I straddle both sides of the fence here.  The rules of golf are too many, too complicated and often times stupid and contradictory.  Why else are there so many videos and articles about the "top most confusing rules", or "rules most players get wrong".  Yes a sport needs rules but there are plenty of dumb ones including the divot in the fairway one.  It conflicts with the ground under repair rule.  I mean, it is literally, ground under repair but just unmarked.  See the contradiction here?  Golf has lots of stupid rules and I am not some odd man out here.

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Da feck are you smoking?  Do you not play with everyday joes?  Do you not understand how an overly complicated sport is off-putting? ......  You come off as taking what I said personally, simmer down.  

I thought I reacted rationally to a few of the things you claimed.  OB makes sense, there's a steeper penalty for failing to keep your ball on the 100+ acres of property dedicated for our use.  I do play with folks who don't understand every rule, and most are happy to learn.  But for "everyday joes", play whatever way you want, as long as your group is happy with your own personal rules.  But if you take the next step, to wanting to compete in a more formal setting, you need to learn a few basic rules, just as @bladehunter has.  As for taking it personally, I suggest you may be a pot calling a kettle black.

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I straddle both sides of the fence here.  The rules of golf are too many, too complicated and often times stupid and contradictory.  Why else are there so many videos and articles about the "top most confusing rules", or "rules most players get wrong".  Yes a sport needs rules but there are plenty of dumb ones including the divot in the fairway one.  It conflicts with the ground under repair rule.  I mean, it is literally, ground under repair but just unmarked.  See the contradiction here?  Golf has lots of stupid rules and I am not some odd man out here.

No I honestly don’t.  Ground under repair is ground being repaired by the management etc. not damage caused in the course of play that will naturally grow over itself. 
 

I’ve never been the most ardent defender of all rules here. But.  I will against your accusations because they’re only backed by the laziness of the masses. It’s an epidemic ( laziness).  And it has to be stopped.  You’re telling me a lot of things are bad and wrong. But the only example you give is “ I want relief from a divot “.   It doesn’t conflict with anything. It abides by “ play it as it lies “.  You always have that choice and sometimes you get relief from things that aren’t part of the playing field.  Example. Cart paths. This isn’t contradictory. 
 

If you give good players ball in hand they can then tune spin into greens with lie , they can tee up for going  over dog legs ,and they can also tee up for driver off the deck .   2 woods etc.      there’s always something in a fairway to tee up on if you are given ball in hand.  This is a non starter.  Can’t be done. It absolutely chnages the game if you have any skill. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by bladehunter

[davep043]

14 minutes ago, clevited said:

Why else are there so many videos and articles about the "top most confusing rules", or "rules most players get wrong". 

A simple phrase, "click bait".  

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

A simple phrase, "click bait".  

 

I disagree, they are there because they are real issues.

[mshills]

Wow.  No, the rules of golf are not hard to understand at all, particularly after the updates over the last few years.

 

OB and Lost Ball:  harshest penalty of stroke and distance because the last shot was so poor that you either hit it off the golf course altogether or you cannot even find it.

 

Hazards:  part of the golf course, so if your ball is not playable in a hazard, you don't have to take stroke and distance, unless you want to.

 

Ground under repair:  marked, free relief.

 

Divots:  this game is played outside on the ground, not on a pool table, a driving range, or my Big Moss practice putting green.  Sometimes a good shot ends up in a bad lie, but it's far more frequent that a bad shot ends up in a good lie, so this is the simplest rule of all:  play the ball as it lies.

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I disagree, they are there because they are real issues.

We can agree to disagree.  For players who really want to learn, there are some great articles and videos, including some pretty recent videos produced by the USGA.  None of those feel the need to use phrases like "most confusing" or "rules most players get wrong".  The videos that DO use those terms are really looking for clicks, in my opinion.  The same as online articles that use the word "bizarre" in a heading for a situation where a player breaks a simple rule.  

 

I'm not going to tell anyone that the Rules are "simple", I don't know of any sport where the rules are "simple".  Considering golf is played on hugely varying playing fields, by players with hugely variable skills, the Rules are about as simple as I think they can be, but still require at least a little bit of study to understand well.

[sui generis]

11 minutes ago, davep043 said:

We can agree to disagree.  For players who really want to learn, there are some great articles and videos, including some pretty recent videos produced by the USGA.  None of those feel the need to use phrases like "most confusing" or "rules most players get wrong".  The videos that DO use those terms are really looking for clicks, in my opinion.  The same as online articles that use the word "bizarre" in a heading for a situation where a player breaks a simple rule.  

 

I'm not going to tell anyone that the Rules are "simple", I don't know of any sport where the rules are "simple".  Considering golf is played on hugely varying playing fields, by players with hugely variable skills, the Rules are about as simple as I think they can be, but still require at least a little bit of study to understand well.

 

How can otherwise reasonable people spend thousands of dollars on equipment and thousands of hours on the range, but not spend the small amount of time and effort to learn the basics of the Rules and figure out how to use the app? 

 

It's not the Rules that are stupid . . . .

[clevited]

36 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

How can otherwise reasonable people spend thousands of dollars on equipment and thousands of hours on the range, but not spend the small amount of time and effort to learn the basics of the Rules and figure out how to use the app? 

 

It's not the Rules that are stupid . . . .

 

Na man, you can love the game and hate the rules.  There is no arguing that the game has a lot of rules, that many rules are confusing, and that more than a couple are idiotic and or contradictory.  There is a reason why most don't play completely by the rules, even the most serious golfers would get called for a rules violation almost every round because they didn't apply it correctly.  This is because they can be very confusing, easily forgotten or misremembered even to many that think they know them well.  To me, the rules need an overhaul so that they are much more intuitive and make more sense.  Disagree all you want but don't call people stupid that think the rules are stupid, you know, because that is just stupid.

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, clevited said:

There is no arguing that the game has a lot of rules, that many rules are confusing, and that more than a couple are idiotic and or contradictory. 

Yes, the game has a lot of rules.

Some rules can be confusing if a player doesn't choose to try to learn more about them

Not a single rule is idiotic.

9 minutes ago, clevited said:

even the most serious golfers would get called for a rules violation almost every round

If a player knows 6 to 8 rules moderately well, he can get through the bulk of his rules without a problem.

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Yes, the game has a lot of rules.

Some rules can be confusing if a player doesn't choose to try to learn more about them

Not a single rule is idiotic.

If a player knows 6 to 8 rules moderately well, he can get through the bulk of his rules without a problem.

 

1) We agree

2) Not true, see pga tour as examples of confusion even for pros and caddies and rules officials

3) Subjective vs subjective

4) Sure but it is when those other rules come into play, which they can and do, that the confusion, time waste, and rule breaking occurs unless you are a nerd with a book on your person and you want to sit there and try and decipher it.  Just how often do you think the 2 shot penalty for lost ball gets violated even by the serious golfer?  "the ball is here somewhere in the GD rough, why can't I find it!!!"  ALL THE TIME.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, clevited said:

Na man, you can love the game and hate the rules.  There is no arguing that the game has a lot of rules

 

EVERY game has a lot of rules.

 

• NHL Rules - 226 pages
• NFL Rules - 245 pages
• MLB Rules - 136 pages
• NBA Rules - 72 pages

And… ALL of those sports are played on uniform or fairly uniform (MLB stadiums vary slightly but also add "ground rules" to the 136 pages above), unlike golf.

 

17 minutes ago, clevited said:

There is no arguing … that more than a couple are idiotic and or contradictory.

 

No, there is arguing about it. You think there are "idiotic and or contradictory" rules, many others (who actually understand the rules pretty well) do not.

 

17 minutes ago, clevited said:

There is a reason why most don't play completely by the rules, even the most serious golfers would get called for a rules violation almost every round because they didn't apply it correctly.

 

I'd take action on that bet.

Edited July 27, 2023 by iacas

[davep043]

1 minute ago, clevited said:

Sure but it is when those other rules come into play

Wait, first you claim that "even the most serious golfers would get called for a rules violation almost every round", and now you admit that's not accurate.  Any other broad claims you care to backtrack on?  

[clevited]

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

Wait, first you claim that "even the most serious golfers would get called for a rules violation almost every round", and now you admit that's not accurate.  Any other broad claims you care to backtrack on?  

 

I didn't back track on anything bub.

[mshills]

20 minutes ago, clevited said:

There is no arguing that the game has a lot of rules, that many rules are confusing, and that more than a couple are idiotic and or contradictory.  There is a reason why most don't play completely by the rules...

 

Really?

[clevited]

1 minute ago, mshills said:

 

Really?

 

Yes, really.

[Nels55]

I would like to see a local model rule allowing drop on either side of the cart path at the players discretion.  There are two problem holes a my course where the PA line is close to the cart path and it can become a real chore explaining how to drop from the PA within two club lengths and then determine the nearest point of relief from the cart path.  This process can take a fair amount of time depending on the person I am trying to explain it to.  Drop twice, place the ball now determine the NPR, LOL it is a real PITA at times.

[clevited]

You boys do realize that you are mostly rules enthusiasts and do not represent the game as a whole right?  This thread is about contempt for the rules of golf. It is going to get mostly your side of the arguement in here. I am representing the other side which the subject matter is about.  Take the opportunity to learn why there is contempt for the rules of golf from people in the know.