The obsession with becoming shallow and how it hurt my game

[reefrash1043]

Shallow has been the buzz word in golf ever since I started 4 years ago. I, like many, became obsessed with being shallow on the downswing. I have progressed decently since starting to play golf, going from shooting in the 100's to breaking 90 on a regular basis. 

 

I decided to take my game to the next level and got a lesson from a local pro. He said all my issues (pulls and slices, two way miss) come from me being severely under plane. Like Sergio level shallow. I told him that was what I thought I was supposed to be doing. He laughed and said being "shallow" has helped alot of people but has equally hurt so many players. 

 

The feels he had me doing in the downswing were basically like I was coming over the top, but when I saw the video, I was right on plane. 

 

Just figured Id put this out there to folks who have experienced the same issues. 

 

Anyone have some other 'under plane' help suggestions? Thanks!

[Scottbox]

https://shop.leadbetter.com/blogs/news/barrier-drill

[teddyironboy]

Are you shallowing correctly? Post your swing?

 

I think as long as you're a little more shallower than the address shaft angle, you don't need to try and get more shallower than that. A shallow swing can still mean a decent amount of face rotation too. I think the ideal shallow which tends to have a more passive face is one where the body is over the top but the club is shallow.

[phizzy30]

I think shallow is fine with driver and fairway metals but not so much for irons.  I used to be very shallow with irons and didn't realize that it was detrimental.  It wasn't until I changed my irons swing which is now steeper that I saw increased carry distance, more spin and higher launch as well as better distance control.  The problem with this is that every now and again, my iron swing creeps into my driver swing and that leads to problems so I have be aware of it. 

[bladehunter]

40 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I think shallow is fine with driver and fairway metals but not so much for irons.  I used to be very shallow with irons and didn't realize that it was detrimental.  It wasn't until I changed my irons swing which is now steeper that I saw increased carry distance, more spin and higher launch as well as better distance control.  The problem with this is that every now and again, my iron swing creeps into my driver swing and that leads to problems so I have be aware of it. 

Agree. I personally think a lot struggle with terminology.  I know I do.  
 

To me shallow meant depth of divot. As in shallow was shallow. Steep was deep.  I don’t think that’s true at all.  As far as cause and effect.  I think a less shallow up and down plane is best.  What I think most lack is the width to come into the ball both downward and to cut a long shallow divot.  If that makes sense ?  It’s an old cliche.  But dollar bill divots is the optimal thing to chase. Thin wide and long. 
 

people come into the ball too narrow and that is a recipe for digging ditches , and a low point that’s hard to control.  
 

I guess what I’m trying to say ( poorly ) is that for a long time I thought shallowing the club meant width.  Coming into the ball from a wide shallow place while looking down the line. I can’t for the life of me figure why anyone would want to lay the shaft down to play on a larger arc ?? This is a recipe for needing more timing to have the face in the right place at impact.  And it’s a shorter window to time it up in .  If you swing more up and down , you can play with a ton less face rotation.  
 

 

it’s funny you mention the difference between iron and driver swing.  I’ve yelled this for a long time. And most will claim there should be no difference.  Bull.  You said it perfectly….  And it’s also why a 43 inch driver with the proper lie angle can be swung up and down like a short iron.  A lot more amateurs could hit driver straighter and on average longer if the rules shrank the driver back down.  

Edited July 9, 2023 by bladehunter

[MPStrat]

These discussions tend to get weird and confuse people. The well intentioned responses are a good example of why. 
 

The reason is because there are several ways “shallow” can be referenced and they are different and often not related. 
 

Could be:

 

The act of laying down the shaft in the downswing 

 

The angle of the shaft at any given point in the swing relative to a 2d line 

 

Swing direction 

 

Angle of attack

 

Depth of divot 

 

Again, all different things and often not related to one another. 

 

The OP referenced “under plane” like Sergio. Sergio has been known to have a relatively steep angle of attack. Has a laid off backswing. Doesn’t lay the shaft down very much if at all. Does not get close to “under plane” where it matters.

 

The reason there is a shallow obsession online is because many struggling golfers who consume content online slice the ball, have weak glancing contact and want to improve.
 

There is also a large number of golfers who are very vertical with the shaft and raise the handle too much at impact hitting it all over the yard.
 

Between those two groups, I would say is 80% or more of amateur golfers.
 

Under plane doesn’t really tell us much in terms of how to fix your swing. Would have to see it. 

[teddyironboy]

I'm pretty sure OP means shallowing the shaft not the angle of attack. 

 

I think a lot of even good coaches teach shallow the wrong way. In my opinion the best way to determine shallow is when compared to the spine. Because that's the axis where our arms and the club is spinning around. Having the shaft near perpendicular to the spine on the downswing is about as shallow as it gets and it's pretty hard to to. I think to get further you'd really need to start laying off the club with your wrists and forearms a lot. Basically the idea is to look like a baseball swing.

 

I don't think Sergio actually gets that shallow. He's still pretty shallow, but I think part of why people think this is his arms are so deep on the downswing and his swing is flat.

 

 

Other guys are closer to perpendicular to spine, like Niemann, DJ, Hovland:

 

 

Not 100% necessary though, look at Cantlay:

 

 

But I wouldn't recommend following Cantlay's although it depends how good one wants to be. A near perpendicular-to-spine shallow swing that is all rotational with passive wrists would take a lot of practice, and a very good coach or knowing what to do. It's pretty un-natural feeling considering nobody picks up the golf club and shallows it out like Hovland right away. Hovland actually studied a ton about the swing and tinkered a lot, worked his a** off for it. Backswing, transition, everything needs to be on point. There's different ways to do it, but there's some key moves that are 100% required and can be easy to miss. But I think if the moves are mastered, I'm convinced it's the most consistent swing.

 

Basically some steep, flippy swing might be easiest at first to hit a solid golf shot compared to a shallow swing. The learning curve might be higher to get shallow. But a steep swing would be way way harder to master and hit the ball like a pro than a shallow swing.

Edited July 9, 2023 by teddyironboy

[reefrash1043]

Here’s my swing for reference. Some days I time it all up and play well (low 80’s), some days it’s a two way miss with fat and thin. Could be other issues too but the pro said I’m under plane. Curious there's more going on.

 

 

 

 

[reefrash1043]

2 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

Are you shallowing correctly? Post your swing?

 

I think as long as you're a little more shallower than the address shaft angle, you don't need to try and get more shallower than that. A shallow swing can still mean a decent amount of face rotation too. I think the ideal shallow which tends to have a more passive face is one where the body is over the top but the club is shallow.

just posted it. 

[reefrash1043]

24 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

These discussions tend to get weird and confuse people. The well intentioned responses are a good example of why. 
 

The reason is because there are several ways “shallow” can be referenced and they are different and often not related. 
 

Could be:

 

The act of laying down the shaft in the downswing 

 

The angle of the shaft at any given point in the swing relative to a 2d line 

 

Swing direction 

 

Angle of attack

 

Depth of divot 

 

Again, all different things and often not related to one another. 

 

The OP referenced “under plane” like Sergio. Sergio has been known to have a relatively steep angle of attack. Has a laid off backswing. Doesn’t lay the shaft down very much if at all. Does not get close to “under plane” where it matters.

 

The reason there is a shallow obsession online is because many struggling golfers who consume content online slice the ball, have weak glancing contact and want to improve.
 

There is also a large number of golfers who are very vertical with the shaft and raise the handle too much at impact hitting it all over the yard.
 

Between those two groups, I would say is 80% or more of amateur golfers.
 

Under plane doesn’t really tell us much in terms of how to fix your swing. Would have to see it. 

just posted it. 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, reefrash1043 said:

Here’s my swing for reference. Some days I time it all up and play well (low 80’s), some days it’s a two way miss with fat and thin. Could be other issues too but the pro said I’m under plane. Curious there's more going on.

 

 

 

 

Have you by chance watched any AMG videos? 😊 

[reefrash1043]

9 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Have you by chance watched any AMG videos? 😊 

hahaha! Guilty 

[teddyironboy]

Not a bad swing. You are shallow, not getting handsy at all. Just your hands/are are way too deep/inside/behind you. My thoughts:

 

Backswing hands come a bit out on the takeaway, but the position is OK at the top. Good hip turn, left wrist is flat which is good. I think it could be good to try and have the hands closer to the body at this position, but still try to get to the same position at the top:

 

Downswing your hands just keep going backwards and you bringing them in quite a bit. I think the first thing you should do is just try not to let the arms travel backwards and hit balls like that. Maybe freezers can be good. Go to the top, pause for a second, and then hit the ball. Something to tinker with could be to try and hit it over the top and see how that looks. Just figure out what makes your hands stop going backwards so much. Sergio is probably a good swing model for you, if you look at his swing, after the top his hands drop down a little but then start to go towards the ball. I think that's a good start and working on anything else past the transition won't do you any good, see how you react to this change first. Don't worry at all where the ball goes. Should be an easy change, but it's going to feel weird for a while. And move your kid's mini-jeep somewhere else, it's going to be in danger for a bit 😅

Edited July 9, 2023 by teddyironboy

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, reefrash1043 said:

I told him that was what I thought I was supposed to be doing. He laughed and said being "shallow" has helped alot of people but has equally hurt so many players. 

 

2 hours ago, reefrash1043 said:

Here’s my swing for reference. Some days I time it all up and play well (low 80’s), some days it’s a two way miss with fat and thin. Could be other issues too but the pro said I’m under plane. Curious there's more going on.

 

 

IMG_2610.mov 24.09 MB · 4 downloads  

 

 

Your swing and the quote above definitely go hand in hand, because what you're doing in this video is exactly what lots of folks end up with when they misunderstand the concept of shallowing. Dumping the hands behind you, getting stuck and under plane, then coming a mile from the inside and ending up in two-way miss land. There are easily half a dozen examples of this on the first two pages of the Swing Video subforum and it's one of the most common "wrong" ways to go about shallowing and getting on plane. 

EVERYTHING in the golf swing biomechanically is on some sort of continuum with the goal being to either find perfect balance or (more commonly) a set of matchups that complement and balance each other when combined. Chasing one thing (in this case shallowing) without knowing how to properly do it and where you are on that continuum is a goal that if achieved will likely ruin your swing. Like the person that decides they need to diet and wholesale eliminates entire food groups only to end up with some 19th century wasting disease because they haven't consumed any Vitamin D in 6 months or something. 

Your pro was right thankfully, just make sure that you understand why. I wouldn't say you are "Sergio level shallow" because you aren't hitting the same positions or following the same patterns he does, rather this swing is the opposite extreme as one of the typical over the top slicer sorts of moves. Many OTT slicers get the club working too inside going back, then the process of getting it "unstuck" involves a loop of the hands/arms rerouting and coming out and over the top of the desired plane, hence the term. You're doing largely the opposite in that you're getting to the top and rerouting your hands behind you, which gets you stuck. It's the rerouting that is the problem as you'll never see a pro make those types of moves. 

[phizzy30]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Agree. I personally think a lot struggle with terminology.  I know I do.  
 

To me shallow meant depth of divot. As in shallow was shallow. Steep was deep.  I don’t think that’s true at all.  As far as cause and effect.  I think a less shallow up and down plane is best.  What I think most lack is the width to come into the ball both downward and to cut a long shallow divot.  If that makes sense ?  It’s an old cliche.  But dollar bill divots is the optimal thing to chase. Thin wide and long. 
 

people come into the ball too narrow and that is a recipe for digging ditches , and a low point that’s hard to control.  
 

I guess what I’m trying to say ( poorly ) is that for a long time I thought shallowing the club meant width.  Coming into the ball from a wide shallow place while looking down the line. I can’t for the life of me figure why anyone would want to lay the shaft down to play on a larger arc ?? This is a recipe for needing more timing to have the face in the right place at impact.  And it’s a shorter window to time it up in .  If you swing more up and down , you can play with a ton less face rotation.  
 

 

it’s funny you mention the difference between iron and driver swing.  I’ve yelled this for a long time. And most will claim there should be no difference.  Bull.  You said it perfectly….  And it’s also why a 43 inch driver with the proper lie angle can be swung up and down like a short iron.  A lot more amateurs could hit driver straighter and on average longer if the rules shrank the driver back down.  

There's clearly a difference in driver and iron swing.  I know they say the only difference is the low point but I disagree.  If the driver swing is the same as iron swing, then I should be able to hit driver fine as long as I move the ball more forward in my stance and make the same swing as iron, right?  Doesn't work like that because I've tried.  Every single time I've tried, it's always the same.  Low and left.  I believe that there needs to be a slightly ascending blow with driver.  My best drives happens when my AoA is +1-3*. 

[reefrash1043]

16 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

Not a bad swing. You are shallow, not getting handsy at all. Just your hands/are are way too deep/inside/behind you. My thoughts:

 

Backswing hands come a bit out on the takeaway, but the position is OK at the top. Good hip turn, left wrist is flat which is good. I think it could be good to try and have the hands closer to the body at this position, but still try to get to the same position at the top:

 

Downswing your hands just keep going backwards and you bringing them in quite a bit. I think the first thing you should do is just try not to let the arms travel backwards and hit balls like that. Maybe freezers can be good. Go to the top, pause for a second, and then hit the ball. Something to tinker with could be to try and hit it over the top and see how that looks. Just figure out what makes your hands stop going backwards so much. Sergio is probably a good swing model for you, if you look at his swing, after the top his hands drop down a little but then start to go towards the ball. I think that's a good start and working on anything else past the transition won't do you any good, see how you react to this change first. Don't worry at all where the ball goes. Should be an easy change, but it's going to feel weird for a while. And move your kid's mini-jeep somewhere else, it's going to be in danger for a bit 😅

 

 

Thanks. Ya, I have always had an issue with my hands getting away from me in the takeaway. Like you said though, at the top I am ok. It might be that momentum though that carries my hand path so far behind me on the downswing. Noted on the Jeep hahaha. 

[Nard_S]

To me ''getting shallow'' is the timing/execution of dropping hands in relation to depth of hands and turn of body. That's all.  The question is not do you it's when. Most steepen early and shallow late, the grand goal is to shallow early, then steepen late. It's all I work on, really because it's completely different way to swing. Body reacts opposite too and requires a retuning of tilts and angles..  Agree that it's more relevant as length of club grows but using same principle improves wedge performance a lot too.

 

OP looks too ''connected'' in that his arms do not drop independently of shoulders and torso. So looks like he crashes shoulder & gets stuck a lot and is left with a push/ flip issue .

 

 

[reefrash1043]

11 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

To me ''getting shallow'' is the timing/execution of dropping hands in relation to depth of hands and turn of body. That's all.  The question is not do you it's when. Most steepen early and shallow late, the grand goal is to shallow early, then steepen late. It's all I work on, really because it's completely different way to swing. Body reacts opposite too and requires a retuning of tilts and angles..  Agree that it's more relevant as length of club grows but using same principle improves wedge performance a lot too.

 

OP looks too ''connected'' in that his arms do not drop independently of shoulders and torso. So looks like he crashes shoulder & gets stuck a lot and is left with a push/ flip issue .

 

 

 

Ive also heard that before. That I am too connected. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[Nard_S]

8 minutes ago, reefrash1043 said:

 

Ive also heard that before. That I am too connected. Any advice would be appreciated!

 

The Justin Rose drill. Also just try to throwdown arms with back to target. It's a recalibration of sequence that requires arms to freely drop then "re-connect" with torso. You need to free arm/hand throw and activate it earlier.  Bigger still is tilts have to alter too. Need to stay in left tilt uncomfortably longer and body angles do increase and hold longer. In early steep move, body reacts by standing up and straightening, this is the opposite. Cannot stress two things enough. 1) Solid hip action is needed and 2) lead arm has to start it's rotation at the shoulder level a lot sooner than anyone not used to it can imagine. The last is a missing piece of puzzle that has confounded me up until just weeks ago (been at this a long time) and has made the whole thing work. I played nine yesterday, 3 of 3 with #3W, split fairways to 250 yards, Trust me, that is not my normal M.O.

[golfarb1]

19 hours ago, MPStrat said:

These discussions tend to get weird and confuse people. The well intentioned responses are a good example of why. 
 

The reason is because there are several ways “shallow” can be referenced and they are different and often not related. 
 

Could be:

 

The act of laying down the shaft in the downswing 

 

The angle of the shaft at any given point in the swing relative to a 2d line 

 

Swing direction 

 

Angle of attack

 

Depth of divot 

 

Again, all different things and often not related to one another. 

 

The OP referenced “under plane” like Sergio. Sergio has been known to have a relatively steep angle of attack. Has a laid off backswing. Doesn’t lay the shaft down very much if at all. Does not get close to “under plane” where it matters.

 

The reason there is a shallow obsession online is because many struggling golfers who consume content online slice the ball, have weak glancing contact and want to improve.
 

There is also a large number of golfers who are very vertical with the shaft and raise the handle too much at impact hitting it all over the yard.
 

Between those two groups, I would say is 80% or more of amateur golfers.
 

Under plane doesn’t really tell us much in terms of how to fix your swing. Would have to see it. 

I have seen videos of Sergio taking a divot with a driver !

[golfarb1]

What is the advantage of having the shaft perpendicular to the spine at the end of transition as “teddyironboy “showed.

 

It allows more time to rotate the torso until impact . 

Is it necessary to play great golf .NO

 

Just look at the below still of Tiger . 

Golfers should try to emulate the amount that Tiger shallows and completely forget about trying to having the shaft parallel to the spine . And completely forget about using Sergio as a model . 

The reason why “shallow “ is such a popular subject is because most golfers get the shaft much more vertical than Tiger at the end of transition . Doing so will reduce the amount of potential torso rotation and encourage an out-in path .

The first step to shallowing the shaft sufficiently is  a good takeaway . A takeaway in which there is “zero “rolling of the forearms and one in which the hands start STRAIGHT back until they move beyond the outside of the trail foot. 
A standard checkpoint at P2( shaft first parallel to the ground ) is for the the shaft topoint  towards the target with the face pointing slightly down
 

Edited July 10, 2023 by golfarb1

[glk]

You already shallow in the backswing.  Your pattern more typically has people pull the club steep into the downswing.     You drop the hands further behind you in an attempt to shallow an already shallow shaft.   You need to get the shaft more upright in the backswing - think hands over the trail shoulder - arms more up and not around.   Simple intent is Keep lead elbow pointing to the ground - you start to point it away from you after p2.    Once shaft is more upright you can forget the idea of dropping hands behind you - from the top hands work down with pivot supplying the out.

Edited July 10, 2023 by glk

[wagolfer7]

I don't think the intent is such a bad thing.  I believe a lot of good golfers feel similar to what your doing at the top.  However the sequencing and timing of things is way off.  Getting unintended results.  

 

Your sequencing is always going to be a struggle, with the way the hips are moving.  They open way too early and way too much.  Need to learn how the hips move correctly in the swing (back and up) not twisting.  Also need to learn how to do a takeaway without the hips driving it.  This is where I'd start.    

[Zitlow]

A friend of mine sent me an explanation by Bobby Jones about shallowing.

 

The proper start down from the top position I have described is in the direction in which the grip end of the shaft is pointing. Since the head end of the club is pointing slightly to the right of the objective aimed at, the grip end will be directed away from the vertical plane in which the ball rests. In other words, instead of immediately beginning to approach the line of flight as the downward stroke commences, the club head should be made at first to drop away from the line.

The importance of this movement cannot be overestimated. the right elbow then will quickly drop back into place close to the side of the body and the player is in a compact position ready to deliver a blow squarely to the back of the ball. there is NO possibility of cutting across the shot.

[RoyalTroon]

Yeah, that's from his great book   You mean to say a great swing scholar like yourself doesn't have Bobby's tome, oh the humanity...🤣

[Lefty_3Jack]

Underplane slices and pulls?  I guess if it's pull hooks and block slices, but wouldn't someone underplane be hitting blocks and hooks vs pulls and slices? 

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

Underplane slices and pulls?  I guess if it's pull hooks and block slices, but wouldn't someone underplane be hitting blocks and hooks vs pulls and slices? 

This goes back to multiple definitions for the same word. The OP is more susceptible to the club kicking out early or too much causing pulls and pull slices. He doesn’t have the early extension stand up and sling, under plane at the bottom happening where we typically see blocks and hooks. 

[ac6]

You probably know this already, but you look like you're really forcing the club into that shallow position and dragging the hands through very mechanically, with a very early/nonexistent release.  In my mind shallowing comes naturally with proper body movement. Get the club high at the top, sequence your pressure shift and turn properly and keep your arms and wrists relaxed and the weight of the club head will naturally drop behind you, shallowing the shaft plane in response to what the rest of your body is doing. 

 

On 7/10/2023 at 9:46 AM, glk said:

You already shallow in the backswing.  Your pattern more typically has people pull the club steep into the downswing.     You drop the hands further behind you in an attempt to shallow an already shallow shaft.   You need to get the shaft more upright in the backswing - think hands over the trail shoulder - arms more up and not around.   Simple intent is Keep lead elbow pointing to the ground - you start to point it away from you after p2.    Once shaft is more upright you can forget the idea of dropping hands behind you - from the top hands work down with pivot supplying the out.

 

Going to use Will Zalatoris as an example because his backswing is notably steep--note how the hands simply drop straight down from the top without manipulation, and his pivot is moving his weight hard back and left. From here the clubhead just goes where it wants to go in response to those forces--down, then out, shallowing out the shaft plane.