How can most golfers possibly follow the rules of golf and maintain

[mark m]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:01 PM, SNIPERBBB said:

I play money games and everyone putts out and we still play in 3:30. Putting isn't the issue.

Good post. Same here (Around 20 to 30 players in a group game for money, by the rules, and we putt out.) We typically play around 3:45 to 4:00 on the weekends. 
 

Slow players are slow for all the reasons already listed. Slow groups are slow because they are typically talking at the wrong time. Especially on the tee box. Just watch them. When you play at a good pace, there isn’t much talking on the tee box or greens. Players get ready and play in quick succession. The talking happens in the travel between shots.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by mark m

[TayTaySlam]

Is the model local rule referenced in the thread the OOB or lost ball 2 stroke drop nearest you think location penalty instead of  S+D if there was no provisional ? 

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, TayTaySlam said:

Is the model local rule referenced in the thread the OOB or lost ball 2 stroke drop nearest you think location penalty instead of  S+D if there was no provisional ? 

For OB, you go anywhere from the point it went out of bounds to the nearest fairway +2 lengths, no closer to the hole .

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

For OB, you go anywhere from the point it went out of bounds to the nearest fairway +2 lengths, no closer to the hole .

My "bumper sticker" version of the procedure for E-5, goes like this:

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. 
Add two penalty strokes.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/6/2023 at 7:43 PM, North Butte said:

The only Rule that seriously impacts pace of play would be returning the spot of a previous shot if you lost a ball and did not hit a provisional. Which nobody does or should do on a crowded course outside of format tournament play.

 

I don't agree.  Putting out all putts is a big time delay.   Also, hitting provisional every time you are in doubt takes time to hit and time to find both balls.

 

Studies have shown that faster greens slow the pace of play.  And fast greens with putting everything out is very slow.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:01 PM, SNIPERBBB said:

I play money games and everyone putts out and we still play in 3:30. Putting isn't the issue.

Maybe not for you.  But if you watch a group of 18 - 20 cappers play and putt everything out, you would see a very slow round of golf.

 

20 cappers have several three-putts every round.  Something many low cappers don't understand.

[nsxguy]

On 8/19/2023 at 2:37 PM, SNIPERBBB said:

For OB, you go anywhere from the point it went out of bounds to the nearest fairway +2 lengths, no closer to the hole .

 

I expect you realize this, but it's important to note that while going into the fairway is the most likely/frequent play, #2 below in sui's post is important.

 

One is not required to go to the fairway. There may be occasions where it would be more advantageous to drop between the point, in the rough. 👍

[SNIPERBBB]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

I expect you realize this, but it's important to note that while going into the fairway is the most likely/frequent play, #2 below in sui's post is important.

 

One is not required to go to the fairway. There may be occasions where it would be more advantageous to drop between the point, in the rough. 👍

I did say "anywhere" in the reply.

[nsxguy]

31 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I did say "anywhere" in the reply.

 

Yes you did. My bad.

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

I don't agree.  Putting out all putts is a big time delay.   Also, hitting provisional every time you are in doubt takes time to hit and time to find both balls.

 

Studies have shown that faster greens slow the pace of play.  And fast greens with putting everything out is very slow.

The model Local Rule eliminates hitting provisional balls, as well as returning to the previous spot. I should have been more complete in my original response.

 

Putting out only seriously impacts pace of play because of the idiots who go through a long, tedious "routine" over every putt. Finishing out your 2-footer doesn't need to take more than 10 seconds, tops. You've already done your 360 (or two) and waggled fingers, plumb bobbed, consulted you caddie and squatted down a couple times before the first putt. You don't need to do all that nonsense again before hitting the second.

 

Slow play is because people WANT to procrastinate before every shot. Not because the Rules of Golf force them to.

[mshills]

If you’ve played golf more than say, six times in your life, you’d know full well that following the rules has effectively nothing to do with pace of play. 
 

Here’s what causes slow play: inappropriate course setup, tee times eight minutes apart, players lacking situational awareness, alcohol consumption. 

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

16 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Maybe not for you.  But if you watch a group of 18 - 20 cappers play and putt everything out, you would see a very slow round of golf.

 

20 cappers have several three-putts every round.  Something many low cappers don't understand.

I'm pretty sure watching a high handicapper play from tee to green takes much longer then watching them putt out everything. And thus makes rounds very slow for themselves and for others. At least when they are on the green. They know where there ball is at, at all times. So if you want to compare. I'm pretty sure from tee to green take much, much longer. 

[North Butte]

16 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

20 cappers have several three-putts every round.  Something many low cappers don't understand.

So are you proposing "gimmes inside the leather" or are you proposing "your second putt is good" as your alternative Rule suitable for 20hcps? A guy who is 3-putting multiple times every round of his life isn't just missing 18" putts that you'd rather he pick up.

 

A lot of those 3-putts involve first putts that didn't end up within six feet of the hole. It might speed up play a little to just tell everyone (not just 20hcps) to take a run at their first putt and then pick up and count it as a 2-putt no matter what. But that's hardly golf. 

 

Heck, I played (twice) with a group who never looked for balls and picked up any time their first putt didn't go in. They had a grand old time just dropping in the fairway any time they hit one in the woods or rough, rolling the ball on every shot, having a second-putt-is-good rule and even with all that not counting anything worse than bogey. That was their game and they were happy with it. Everybody could break 80, heck they could lose two sleeves of balls and shoot 82 or 83.

 

Both times I played with them it took around 3:45 for 18 holes. I don't consider that fast. 

[smashdn]

On 8/6/2023 at 10:16 PM, TrueBlue4Lyfe said:

The problem with golf is 95% of people use differing rules… when it comes to measuring handicap.

 

That becomes a problem for them not me.

 

That situation you are describing results in an artificially lowered handicap.  If they choose not to follow The Rules and apply those scores to their handicap calculation, that is their choice and in the end effects them.

 

About the only way I can see it biting me in the rear is in a blind-draw, flighted, scramble or something like that where they are the "A" or "B" or whatever player but are in actuality not that good.  But we are really deep in a rabbit hole with that.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:50 AM, mshills said:

If you’ve played golf more than say, six times in your life, you’d know full well that following the rules has effectively nothing to do with pace of play. 
 

So, putting out takes no more time than picking up your ball?  Got it.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:05 AM, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I'm pretty sure watching a high handicapper play from tee to green takes much longer then watching them putt out everything. 

But that wasn't the question, was it?  The question is about putting out taking more time than not putting out.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:20 AM, North Butte said:

So are you proposing "gimmes inside the leather" or are you proposing "your second putt is good" as your alternative Rule suitable for 20hcps? A guy who is 3-putting multiple times every round of his life isn't just missing 18" putts that you'd rather he pick up.

 

A lot of those 3-putts involve first putts that didn't end up within six feet of the hole. It might speed up play a little to just tell everyone (not just 20hcps) to take a run at their first putt and then pick up and count it as a 2-putt no matter what. But that's hardly golf. 

 

I'm not suggesting anything.  I'm just saying that putting everything out adds time.  Most of the time it involves marking your ball and replacing it in addition to the time it takes to putt.  And sometimes you add time for moving your marker out of another player's line, etc. 

 

BTW, most high cappers have several three-putts per round and sometimes four-putts.

 

"A 12 handicapper is more likely to three-putt than hole-out from 15ft...yes you read that right! Overall, 12 handicaps average a total of 2.9 three-putts per round, 1.9 putts per hole, 2.2 putts per GIR and a 34 putts per 18 holes."

 

10 Mind Blowing Amateur Golfer Stats | Golf Monthly

 

If a 12 capper has 3 three-putts per round imagine how many a 20 capper has.

[mshills]

28 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

So, putting out takes no more time than picking up your ball?  Got it.

 

I am playing golf, which means holing out in stroke play.  If this means my round takes a few minutes longer, fine.

 

You're tilting at the wrong windmill -- holing out is not the right place to look for PoP issues.

[st1800e]

42 minutes ago, mshills said:

You're tilting at the wrong windmill

✅

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

I'm not suggesting anything.  I'm just saying that putting everything out adds time.  Most of the time it involves marking your ball and replacing it in addition to the time it takes to putt.  And sometimes you add time for moving your marker out of another player's line, etc. 

 

BTW, most high cappers have several three-putts per round and sometimes four-putts.

 

"A 12 handicapper is more likely to three-putt than hole-out from 15ft...yes you read that right! Overall, 12 handicaps average a total of 2.9 three-putts per round, 1.9 putts per hole, 2.2 putts per GIR and a 34 putts per 18 holes."

 

10 Mind Blowing Amateur Golfer Stats | Golf Monthly

 

If a 12 capper has 3 three-putts per round imagine how many a 20 capper has.

OK, hackers 3 and 4 putt a lot. I'm still not sure how that fairly obvious fact relates to the topic of this thread which is that the Rules of Golf are what's standing between "most golfers" and maintaining a reasonable pace of play. 

 

What they can do (and I am making a suggestion) is quit imitating the stuff they see on TV, just step up to that second, third or fourth putt and hit it. Walking forward 10 or 20 feet, taking your stance and stroking a putt just doesn't add up to much time at all. It's doing all the time-wasting "routine" 3 or 4 times per green that quickly adds up.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

5 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

But that wasn't the question, was it?  The question is about putting out taking more time than not putting out.

I'm responding to your comment when you said "slow round of golf". It's not just about putting everything out that's gonna cause slow play. You are only seeing it from one side instead of all. Matter of fact I just came back from a weekend trip from Denver. And was grouped up with 2 guys that had 45-48 putts each, for both days. But still managed to finish in 4 hours and 15 minutes 1st day as the first tee time out, 2nd day we finished in under 5 hours only cause the course got backed up. And we still managed to wait on every hole. My point is, it’s not just about putting out everything that’s causing slow play. I’m pretty sure if we didn’t have to wait for 2 guys going back and forth looking and hitting their ball. We would have finished much quicker. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by I'_rather_be_golfing

[betarhoalphadelta]

6 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I'm not suggesting anything.  I'm just saying that putting everything out adds time.  Most of the time it involves marking your ball and replacing it in addition to the time it takes to putt.  And sometimes you add time for moving your marker out of another player's line, etc. 

 

BTW, most high cappers have several three-putts per round and sometimes four-putts.

 

"A 12 handicapper is more likely to three-putt than hole-out from 15ft...yes you read that right! Overall, 12 handicaps average a total of 2.9 three-putts per round, 1.9 putts per hole, 2.2 putts per GIR and a 34 putts per 18 holes."

 

10 Mind Blowing Amateur Golfer Stats | Golf Monthly

 

If a 12 capper has 3 three-putts per round imagine how many a 20 capper has.

 

But I think the key is that if a putt is "good", i.e. so easily makeable that you can pick up, it's close enough that putting it out doesn't take time. But if a putt isn't "good", say a 5 footer that a 12- or 20-cap can EASILY miss, then it'll take time to putt, but it's not exactly something they should pick up. 

 

And what NB was getting at is that if a 12- or 20-capper is faced with a 25 foot putt, this isn't like the PGAT where they'll reliably be within "gimme" range for their second putt. Many times the reason they three putt is because they leave that putt 6' short, or roll it 6' past. I don't think you're suggesting they pick it up and count it "good", right? And yeah, that's something they'll probably have to mark, have to read, etc. Then that 6' second putt they might miss, but in THAT case probably get it to gimme range. 

 

I'd agree with you that if that second putt stops 6" from the hole, might as well pick it up as a three-putt in casual or low-stakes play. But I disagree that actually sinking that 6" putt will take much time, require it be marked, require an elaborate routine, etc, and slow down play. Sinking that 6" putt shouldn't take more than 10 seconds. 

[Golferpaul]

On 8/22/2023 at 7:56 AM, mshills said:

 

I am playing golf, which means holing out in stroke play.  If this means my round takes a few minutes longer, fine.

 

You're tilting at the wrong windmill -- holing out is not the right place to look for PoP issues.

But that's not the debate, is it?  I never said it was the "Right place" whatever that means.  I just said putting out takes more time in response to the post that said it doesn't.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/22/2023 at 12:13 PM, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

I'm responding to your comment when you said "slow round of golf". It's not just about putting everything out that's gonna cause slow play. 

I don't recall ever saying that putting out is the only cause for slow play.  Obviously, there are many others.

 

But you cannot deny that more putts take more time.  That's a fact.

[Golferpaul]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:43 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

But I think the key is that if a putt is "good", i.e. so easily makeable that you can pick up, it's close enough that putting it out doesn't take time. But if a putt isn't "good", say a 5 footer that a 12- or 20-cap can EASILY miss, then it'll take time to putt, but it's not exactly something they should pick up. 

 

And what NB was getting at is that if a 12- or 20-capper is faced with a 25 foot putt, this isn't like the PGAT where they'll reliably be within "gimme" range for their second putt. Many times the reason they three putt is because they leave that putt 6' short, or roll it 6' past. I don't think you're suggesting they pick it up and count it "good", right? And yeah, that's something they'll probably have to mark, have to read, etc. Then that 6' second putt they might miss, but in THAT case probably get it to gimme range. 

 

I'd agree with you that if that second putt stops 6" from the hole, might as well pick it up as a three-putt in casual or low-stakes play. But I disagree that actually sinking that 6" putt will take much time, require it be marked, require an elaborate routine, etc, and slow down play. Sinking that 6" putt shouldn't take more than 10 seconds. 

I agree that 6" putts do not add time. You can putt them in about as quickly as picking up the ball.

 

High cappers rarely have 6" putts for their second putt.  

 

BTW, I never suggested that high cappers take gimmies.  I simply said putting out adds time.  That's a fact.

[mshills]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

I don't recall ever saying that putting out is the only cause for slow play.  Obviously, there are many others.

 

But you cannot deny that more putts take more time.  That's a fact.

C’mon man. Ok, conceded. All else equal, more putts take more time than fewer putts, but so what? More shots take more time than less shots, so why not hit driver then go to the next tee? 

 

Putting out — getting the ball in the hole —  is THE object of the game, you cannot deny it, that’s a fact.

[North Butte]

So the best thing a 20hcp can do for slow play would be to start playing to a 2hcp and hitting one less shot per hole and quit 3-putting entirely. 

 

Still nothing to do with the Rules of Golf causing slow play. A slow 20hcp taking 90 strokes with an interminable "preshot routine" before every one of them is going to be slow whether he plays strictly by the Rules or not. Picking up a handful of inside-the-leather putts apiece is going to take a foursome of those guys down from 4:50 minutes to 4:40 minutes at best. Rolling the ball in the fairway or raking bunkers before their shot will actually them down by a few seconds here and there.

 

The Rules of Golf has nothing to do with it. Slow is slow and taking a lot of shots slowly is the slowest of all.

 

And yet, somehow, I've played with guys struggling to break 100 who play the ball down and putt it out and still take nowhere near 4 hours to do it. Go figure. 

[rogolf]

36 minutes ago, North Butte said:

So the best thing a 20hcp can do for slow play would be to start playing to a 2hcp and hitting one less shot per hole and quit 3-putting entirely. 

 

Still nothing to do with the Rules of Golf causing slow play. A slow 20hcp taking 90 strokes with an interminable "preshot routine" before every one of them is going to be slow whether he plays strictly by the Rules or not. Picking up a handful of inside-the-leather putts apiece is going to take a foursome of those guys down from 4:50 minutes to 4:40 minutes at best. Rolling the ball in the fairway or raking bunkers before their shot will actually them down by a few seconds here and there.

 

The Rules of Golf has nothing to do with it. Slow is slow and taking a lot of shots slowly is the slowest of all.

 

And yet, somehow, I've played with guys struggling to break 100 who play the ball down and putt it out and still take nowhere near 4 hours to do it. Go figure. 

Check out the time taken by the Tuesday Ladies' Leagues.  They play by the Rules, hole out everything, and rarely take more than 4 hours to finish (unless held up by groups in front of them).

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 8/23/2023 at 2:57 PM, Golferpaul said:

I agree that 6" putts do not add time. You can putt them in about as quickly as picking up the ball.

 

High cappers rarely have 6" putts for their second putt.  

 

BTW, I never suggested that high cappers take gimmies.  I simply said putting out adds time.  That's a fact.

 

So then the equivalent of your argument is "high cappers take more time than low cappers because they take more strokes". Because if you're not suggesting that the high capper takes a gimme when he blows one 5 feet past the hole--as nobody would suggest, because 5 feet isn't even a gimme for a Tour player and a high capper is the MOST likely to miss it so it's not a gimme--then it's just blaming high cappers for being slow players because they take more strokes. 

 

My point was that putting out potential gimmes doesn't take much more time than giving gimmes because gimmes are by definition easy putts that don't take much time. And therefore that putting out relative to taking gimmes doesn't appreciably affect PoP. 

[st1800e]

People are slow players because they are slow, for many reasons explained ad infinitum in this thread and many others, in isolation hitting another putt isn’t one of them.  Unless as has been said, they treat it like all other putts, on the 72nd hole of the US Open, then the additional putt isn’t the problem, the fact that they’re slow is the problem.