How do you read wind and uphill/downhill distances?

[RoyalMustang]

Club selection is something that I need to work on. I know my carry distances and they are consistent. However, how can I gauge wind and elevation? Is there a rule for, say, a green that's 5 yards above the fairway? How about a wind rule? Sure, 10mph may equal a loss of 10%, but how do I know I'm facing a 10mph wind and not 15mph? 

 

The reason I ask: I had 160 to the pin last night, the green is a bit elevated (probably 3 yards) and I had a bit of a headwind. I played a full 8-iron (carry 171), flushed it, and landed it 5 yards short of my target. Another yard got me a decent birdie look, but instead I was buried in a bunker lip toward a short-sided pin. In effect, my 8-iron carried 155. 

 

Looking back, I probably had the wind short (I bet it was roughly 7 mph into my face, probably more like 10) and forgot about the elevation. Together, they cost me at least a stroke on what was a really good round till that point. 

[Dabetic]

I assume this is not the answer you're looking for, but trial and error / feel. And that's coming from a person who's typically very numbers based & computational throughout life. Thinking about how many mph wind I'm playing with would drive me nuts

 

It sounds like you should have taken potential error more into account and gone w full or smooth 7i, knowing that 5y short is less ideal than 5y long (assumption there. maybe 5y long would be a bad outcome here). Said differently, I filter every shot through a sort of "if this doesn't go to plan, where would I prefer that I end up". And I play ~between the ideal scenario and choice #2

 

Generally speaking, 160 pin uphill and into the wind, I'm usually thinking like a 175 shot, or at least "what do I know will guarantee 170+". 171 pured 8i is asking for a lot imo. The likelihood that I end up very long w a 175-180 shot is not high. The likelihood that I'm a bit long is fairly high. And I'm very okay w that knowing that a bit short (mishit or misjudgment on wind/slope) is ~okay and anything more than a bit short is no good

[slytown]

I start adding/deleting a club at 10 feet of elevation. I know some people add a club every 15 ft of elevation, but I would rather take a little off some extra club than try to hit a shorter club harder. If I had 10 feet less elevation, I would use the same club, but choke up a touch and play a fade.

[srsbeans]

Wind is a lot of guess work. Agree with previous poster that you really need to experiment to start to calibrate for this. While out on the course, always take every chance to watch balls in the air and see how they're behaving.

 

On slope adjustments, this is fairly basic math. If you've been on trackman and had a chance to observe your descent angles that's a great place to start, or you can look at the pga tour (based on your 171 8i) averages and see that your 8i is probably coming in around ~50*. (The uphill would decrease this figure slightly, but the into breeze would increase it.)  I would deduce from this that we're missing right about (within a rounding error) 5 yards of forward progress from the 5 yards of uphill. 

 

I don't know how the range finder slope features came up with their algorithms for slope adjustment but I don't really trust them at all they seem to be based on much flatter ball flights and therefore come up with exaggerated adjustments that may suit average length players.

[SNIPERBBB]

Lot of this will be experience and depends on your ball striking. More penetrating shots will be less effected by wind than the high, spinny shots. Into the wind, I play more like Im trying to hit the back of the green and vice versa with the wind.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

Club selection is something that I need to work on. I know my carry distances and they are consistent. However, how can I gauge wind and elevation? Is there a rule for, say, a green that's 5 yards above the fairway? How about a wind rule? Sure, 10mph may equal a loss of 10%, but how do I know I'm facing a 10mph wind and not 15mph? 

 

The reason I ask: I had 160 to the pin last night, the green is a bit elevated (probably 3 yards) and I had a bit of a headwind. I played a full 8-iron (carry 171), flushed it, and landed it 5 yards short of my target. Another yard got me a decent birdie look, but instead I was buried in a bunker lip toward a short-sided pin. In effect, my 8-iron carried 155. 

 

Looking back, I probably had the wind short (I bet it was roughly 7 mph into my face, probably more like 10) and forgot about the elevation. Together, they cost me at least a stroke on what was a really good round till that point. 

Honestly, as much as you've played golf, how are you not able to do it?  Sounds like you already have it analyzed in terms of the one off example because . . . . you already know.  Trust in your experience.

[Primo1868]

I'm on my work computer so I can't link instagram, but, Andrew Rice has a good approximation of wind help/hurt. You can check out his instagram to find it or I can try to link it later on when I get home. 

 

Another good resource that provided similar information was, "The Sweet Spot" podcast with John Sherman and Adam Young - "How do wind, temperature, and Humidity and Altitude Alter Ball Flight w/Marty Jertson and Chris Broadie".

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

but how do I know I'm facing a 10mph wind and not 15mph? 

Kestrel to calibrate yourself or this following guide from the hiking world:  https://sectionhiker.com/how-to-determine-wind-speed-by-observation-the-beaufort-scale/

(Hopefully, the signs pertaining to gales and above are only of academic interest...)

 

Additionally, if your rangefinder is magnified, and you can see mirage, this guide to mirage and wind values may be of use:  

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

More penetrating shots will be less effected by wind than the high, spinny shots.

Wind exacerbates the effects of spin, plus winds even only 100' above the ground can be a bit faster than winds at ground level.  Even without any ground level obstacles like trees to break the wind. 

 

The effect can be substantial, and hilarious, for a spinny high ball hitter.  I was practicing at the range on the 8th.  A storm was doing storm things a few miles away, but coming closer.  Before the rain, were some absolutely amazing gust fronts.  Winds went from a measured 1 mph at the airport a mile away, to 22 sustained, gusting to 39. Any side spin caused large banana bends in the flight.  My normal 165 yd 7-iron was obediently landing and stopping near the 100 yd pole.

 

Great opportunity to practice consequence-free knockdown shots.  I was glad my hat had a chinstrap, and that I wasn't having to figure this out for the first time during a round.

[GoGoErky]

Andrew Rice posted a video and maybe a blog about hitting into the wind. Iirc it was add 15% for 10mph. So example you have 150 yard shot into 10mph wind that now if my math is correct 172 yards. He says use your 172 yard club.

 

for elevation like other said trial and error. Another option to speed up the trial and error is to use a range finder with slope and gauge based off that 

[Jeff58]

Paralysis by over analysis. You can’t accurately judge these effect by direct observation, and attempting to do so creates uncertainty, which is bad. Instead, use simple rules.

 

Caution, contains math -

 

For a 90 degree triangle, the side opposite is 45 degrees, which is close to the 50 degree number that we are often trying to achieve for approach shots. What that means to you is that the change in carry distance is roughly 1 to 1 with height. If your distance gapping between clubs is 15 yards, you really don’t need to consider changing clubs unless the gain/loss is considerable.

 

For wind, there are too many variables, ball model, launch angle, max height, ball speed, wind direction, effect of trees or houses, etc. What’s more, these values won’t exist until after you hit the ball. Considerable wind one club, heavy wind two, more go home and have a beer.
 

[Glock917]

5 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

but how do I know I'm facing a 10mph wind and not 15mph? 

 

Honestly I had this same predicament when I was playing and instead of just guessing or looking at the weather app where who knows where the weather station was relative to me, I decided to just get a $15 anemometer on amazon.

 

It gave me a gauge of what a 5mph, 10mph, 15mph and 20mph feels like which is the most important range to decipher since that is the wind speed we all deal with 99% we play. Not surprisingly everyone feels a 5mph wind and always think its a 15-20mph lol.

 

This greatly helped in my distance control in wind as previously I used to over gauge the wind and led to poor distances to targets

 

Obviously you cannot use it in any tournament play but you just need to take it out a couple times to feel the wind and see what the meter reads and you can gauge the speed of the wind just by feeling it from then on. 

 

Mine looked something similar to this

Edited September 13, 2023 by Glock917
added pic

[MK7Golf21]

I have a caddie on the payroll for that.

[GungHoGolf]

Slope:

Rangefinder with slope. Without it, the rule of thumb is 1 yard up equals 1 yard more club, and vice-versa (assuming a 45 degree descent angle, which is typical of a 7-iron). The higher trajectory the shot (wedges), the less adjustment to make, and vice-versa for low trajectory shots. It can be tough to visually estimate how far up or down your target elevation is compared to where you're standing.

 

Wind: 

I'm in Texas, lots of experience here. 🙂 I use the free Wind Compass app on my iPhone (Android version here), which merges a compass with current wind data from the internet. (Is it legal for USGA play, you ask? A couple of guys who seem to know about such stuff over in the Rules sub here said yes, as it is just combining two legal data sources, a compass and internet weather data.) The app shows me wind direction on a compass face and speed (like "8 gusting to 14.5 mph"). Have to be alert for wind direction shifts, which sometimes take 10-20 minutes to update over the internet. If nothing else, check the wind direction and speed forecast prior to the round, then use a traditional compass or compass on a smart watch to keep your bearings on the course.

 

Besides the app, I'm looking at cloud movement if clouds are visible, which is VERY reliable if clouds are low, and nearly always matches data from the Wind Compass app, tree tops, any visible flags, and sometimes tossing grass (knowing that it's easy to be fooled by swirling winds on the ground, especially on tee boxes protected by trees).

 

Another cool trick is to listen to the wind as you turn your head - you'll hear it with different volumes in each ear unless you're facing directly into or away from it.

 

As far as how much to adjust shots for any given wind speed, that's an imprecise art (especially when it's variable and gusty) - but remember that headwind hurts shots much more than the same strength tailwind helps shots, especially with higher trajectories and/or more spin. A rule of thumb I loosely use is to add a club for every 8-10 mph or so of headwind, and when headwinds are strongish, I play a lot of 1/2-3/4 swing knockdown shots with irons, often taking 2-3 more clubs than stock distance. Never, ever, just hit a mid- or short-iron harder into the wind to "get it there," as the harder you hit it, the more it will spin and balloon and the shorter it will go. Crosswinds I just make a guess, and sometimes draw/fade against it or occasionally ride it if I want more distance. Also remember that wedges can be "knocked down" with a tailwind and go shorter than expected.

[MPStrat]

 

Good thread. Lot of good advice and things I didn't consider.

[RoyalMustang]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Kestrel to calibrate yourself or this following guide from the hiking world:  https://sectionhiker.com/how-to-determine-wind-speed-by-observation-the-beaufort-scale/

(Hopefully, the signs pertaining to gales and above are only of academic interest...)

 

Additionally, if your rangefinder is magnified, and you can see mirage, this guide to mirage and wind values may be of use:  

 

that's a super useful link. I'm going to print that page for reference and commit it to memory. 

 

I used to sail (race) a ton and had a good read on wind speed in knots, but there, you have instant feedback. The telltales on your sail are one, and how hard you have to work to keep your boat flat upwind is another. 

[Nard_S]

"The wind is twice as strong at tree level then you can feel". A guy who races sail boats told me that and it helped a lot.

[st1800e]

I find for elevation changes, for example where the Laser with slope says 10-15 yards less or more, I need one less club downhill and two clubs more uphill. I have a mid  trajectory , not a high trajectory that a high swing speed player typically has.  

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

20 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

that's a super useful link. I'm going to print that page for reference and commit it to memory. 

 

I used to sail (race) a ton and had a good read on wind speed in knots, but there, you have instant feedback. The telltales on your sail are one, and how hard you have to work to keep your boat flat upwind is another. 

Thanks!  So you're used to working with anemometers.

 

For the rest of us, and I apologize for the math, but some handy vector rules of thumb for getting the head(tail) wind component vs crosswind component for a given wind are as follows: 

45° wind?  Take ~0.7 (cosine or sine 45°) of the total wind speed for each.  10 mph coming at you half from the front, half from the side, means about 7 MPH of headwind and 7 MPH of crosswind.

30° wind?  So mostly headwind?  Take 7/8 of it.  About 8.5-9 mph.  But you still have a full 5 mph of crosswind.  Reverse the relationship for a 60° wind. A wind mostly on your side, still has a significant head or tailwind component.

 

Great, I have these relationships, now what?  I'll cite Tufelman for a more indepth analysis of the issue, but for a basic headwind, take 1% off the normal distance for each MPH.  10 MPH headwind, and you normally hit your 5-iron 200?  You now hit it 180.  (You can see why that crosswind's 1/2 value headwind component might bite you.)  Tailwind?  Take around half that as a bonus.  (I've seen figures anywhere from 1/2 % to 3/4%, per MPH.)  10 MPH tailwind with your 5-iron above?  You now hit it 210-215.  

 

All of these are going to vary with your individual ball flight.  They're just estimates.  I imagine a high spinny ball is going to be degraded a lot more in a headwind than a low links bullet.  Try both and see.

 

I can't help you with crosswind and drift.  In Rifle-Land, we use programs to generate wind drift charts, and print them out and attach to the rifle, or just have them in our range books.  I guess you could use the Foresight trajectory toy/app to spit out some exemplar drifts for each club.

 

As Tufelman writes, this isn't a strictly linear relationship.  But we're just trying to get close enough of a solution to hit the green.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[RoyalMustang]

21 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Thanks!  So you're used to working with anemometers.

 

For the rest of us, and I apologize for the math, but some handy vector rules of thumb for getting the head(tail) wind component vs crosswind component for a given wind are as follows: 

45° wind?  Take ~0.7 (cosine or sine 45°) of the total wind speed for each.  10 mph coming at you half from the front, half from the side, means about 7 MPH of headwind and 7 MPH of crosswind.

30° wind?  So mostly headwind?  Take 7/8 of it.  About 8.5-9 mph.  But you still have a full 5 mph of crosswind.  Reverse the relationship for a 60° wind. A wind mostly on your side, still has a significant head or tailwind component.

 

Great, I have these relationships, now what?  I'll cite Tufelman for a more indepth analysis of the issue, but for a basic headwind, take 1% off the normal distance for each MPH.  10 MPH headwind, and you normally hit your 5-iron 200?  You now hit it 180.  (You can see why that crosswind's 1/2 value headwind component might bite you.)  Tailwind?  Take around half that as a bonus.  (I've seen figures anywhere from 1/2 % to 3/4%, per MPH.)  10 MPH tailwind with your 5-iron above?  You now hit it 210-215.  

 

All of these are going to vary with your individual ball flight.  They're just estimates.  I imagine a high spinny ball is going to be degraded a lot more in a headwind than a low links bullet.  Try both and see.

 

I can't help you with crosswind and drift.  In Rifle-Land, we use programs to generate wind drift charts, and print them out and attach to the rifle, or just have them in our range books.  I guess you could use the Foresight trajectory toy/app to spit out some exemplar drifts for each club.

 

As Tufelman writes, this isn't a strictly linear relationship.  But we're just trying to get close enough of a solution to hit the green.

 

 

Again, great information! Rule of thumb is all we can really do on the golf course. We are hitting a shot in the next 60 seconds, not rigging our boat for a 90-minute race, and are much more adaptable as conditions change. For a very long time on a Laser, you weren't allowed set up a mechanical advantage cunningham or clew sleeve. The vang adjustment was basically worthless unless you had slack in the system (had to stall a tack to tighten it). It left me really susceptible to the wind picking up, as I was only 140lbs at the time and struggled keeping the boat flat upwind when setting up with too much sail. 

 

In comparison, adjusting for wind on the golf course seems pretty straightforward. I'll work on it this fall. 

[tatertot]

Huh ... I toss grass in the air.

[naval2006]

On 9/13/2023 at 11:54 AM, Dabetic said:

I assume this is not the answer you're looking for, but trial and error / feel.

 

No matter how much data you have.  This is a part of the game based on both feel and experience.  Loads of trial and error will answer your question.  

[SNIPERBBB]

Pet peeve I have on range finders with slope, which I don't use for golf got the coming reason, is that the playing as distance assumes a ballistic trajectory. For low spin players that's fine. For higher spin/speed players uphill/downhill doesn't seem to affect playing distances except for extremes or you're playing knockdowns. When I play with guys that use the sloped finders if I listen to the play as numbers I'll almost always misclub.

 

[Patnachts]

34 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Pet peeve I have on range finders with slope, which I don't use for golf got the coming reason, is that the playing as distance assumes a ballistic trajectory. For low spin players that's fine. For higher spin/speed players uphill/downhill doesn't seem to affect playing distances except for extremes or you're playing knockdowns. When I play with guys that use the sloped finders if I listen to the play as numbers I'll almost always misclub.

 

This is interesting, do you mind expanding a bit? I am a high spin/speed player and I have been noticing that all season downhill/uphill doesn't nearly have the effect on my that it has on several guys I have been playing with.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

Your descent angle is likely much steeper than theirs.  Which means the added or shrunk vertical distance your ball travels at the end of its flight, doesn't translate into very much horizontal distance gained or lost.

 

It's still an effect you have to adjust for, but not as great as for someone with say a 30 or 35° descent angle.

[SNIPERBBB]

31 minutes ago, Patnachts said:

This is interesting, do you mind expanding a bit? I am a high spin/speed player and I have been noticing that all season downhill/uphill doesn't nearly have the effect on my that it has on several guys I have been playing with.

Think back to to the horrible days of calc/precalc when we dealth with Pythagorean theorems and parabalos/quadratic equations. A ballistic trajectory you can basically describe as a parabola. If you graph a parabola and cut the end of it off at the of the parabola with a hill, it will end at a shorter distance . Low spin players will have a more ballistic trajectory. Higher spin/speed players will have a steeper descent angle so if you cut off the end of the flight with the same hill, the distance between the normal landing and spot the hill cut it off will be much closer together than a ballistic/parabolic arc would be

[Mike_C]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:32 PM, GungHoGolf said:

A rule of thumb I loosely use is to add a club for every 8-10 mph or so of headwind, and when headwinds are strongish, I play a lot of 1/2-3/4 swing knockdown shots with irons, often taking 2-3 more clubs than stock distance. Never, ever, just hit a mid- or short-iron harder into the wind to "get it there," as the harder you hit it, the more it will spin and balloon and the shorter it will go.

 

This can't be stressed enough.  I see higher handicappers try this all the time, "well, its into the wind I have to just hit it harder".....   um, no you don't.....

 

Not only will it balloon, but any sidespin will also be exaggerated. 

 

What's the old saying, when its windy, swing easy.....

[SNIPERBBB]

39 minutes ago, Patnachts said:

This is interesting, do you mind expanding a bit? I am a high spin/speed player and I have been noticing that all season downhill/uphill doesn't nearly have the effect on my that it has on several guys I have been playing with.

If you really want to visualize this more go to the Flightscope trajectory optimizer and put whatever numbers you want in. Set the spin initially to 3000.  Each shot you do increase it  by 1000. Then draw a line at an point across the graph it puts out at any height and compare that spot vs where the ball would of landed.

[jholz]

I could never tell you how to do it...

 

But I know a 1 club vs. 1/2 club wind the same way I know 1 or 1/2 club of elevation.

 

Test me sometime. 

 

I strongly feel that this all comes from experience.  

Edited September 15, 2023 by jholz

[Ri_Redneck]

On 9/13/2023 at 10:27 AM, RoyalMustang said:

Club selection is something that I need to work on. I know my carry distances and they are consistent. However, how can I gauge wind and elevation? Is there a rule for, say, a green that's 5 yards above the fairway? How about a wind rule? Sure, 10mph may equal a loss of 10%, but how do I know I'm facing a 10mph wind and not 15mph? 

 

The reason I ask: I had 160 to the pin last night, the green is a bit elevated (probably 3 yards) and I had a bit of a headwind. I played a full 8-iron (carry 171), flushed it, and landed it 5 yards short of my target. Another yard got me a decent birdie look, but instead I was buried in a bunker lip toward a short-sided pin. In effect, my 8-iron carried 155. 

 

Looking back, I probably had the wind short (I bet it was roughly 7 mph into my face, probably more like 10) and forgot about the elevation. Together, they cost me at least a stroke on what was a really good round till that point. 

First and foremost, you made the wrong decision to go for a front pin, uphill, against the wind with trouble just in front. ALWAYS allow a bit on that shot with those conditions. Better to be a bit long. That said, here is what you have to do with the wind:

 

1. Educate yourself to accurately estimate it. Someone already posted a pic and link to an anemometer. Get one and go out when the wind is blowing and get to where you can accurately judge it by feel. I did this several years ago (I retrain myself from time to time too) and I found I had no idea what the true wind speed was.

2. Hit balls in the wind. Go play when it's blowing! There's less people playing and playing in the wind is the best way to learn how it affects your shots and the balls you use. I also do this where rain is concerned. You'll have to play in it eventually.

3. Take notes. Keep a small journal of the affects and keep it in your bag. I do this for not only atmospheric conditions, but elevation too. I also have all of my wedge distances using the clock method entered. It's about the most valuable thing I have in my bag!

 

BT