Hazard branches and shrub obstructions: what is allowed in terms of modification?

[RoyalMustang]

So, you hit your ball into a hazard and it's next to a tree with branches in your swing path.

 

My understanding is that you aren't allowed to bend/break/modify branches or weeds with your hands. But, let's say you stepped in behind the ball and in the process of taking your stance, creatively moved that branch by backing into it and taking your stance. The branch goes back to where it was after you hit the ball. 

 

What about something similar but with the feet; stepping on shrubs that may be in the swing path? You do have a right to take a stance, correct? So if a tall shrub just happens to be in your swingpath near you want to stand, can you step on it? Can you hold it down under my foot as part of my stance?

 

If neither of these are allowed, what is the distinction/cutoff? 

 

Usually, I'd just take a drop if it's in a hazard, but sometimes this happens in an area of play and I'd like to know what is allowed. There is one "christmas tree" on my course that has very low and wide branches. If you somehow end up under that tree, you need to know how to play the ball and get it clear as you may have to take multiple unplayable lies to get it out of the tree's radius.  Or it's a billiards-style golf shot with your putter to get it clear (assuming that's allowed-I don't know why it wouldn't be). 

 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

So, you hit your ball into a hazard and it's next to a tree with branches in your swing path.

 

My understanding is that you aren't allowed to bend/break/modify branches or weeds with your hands. But, let's say you stepped in behind the ball and in the process of taking your stance, creatively moved that branch by backing into it and taking your stance. The branch goes back to where it was after you hit the ball. 

 

What about something similar but with the feet; stepping on shrubs that may be in the swing path? You do have a right to take a stance, correct? So if a tall shrub just happens to be in your swingpath near you want to stand, can you step on it? Can you hold it down under my foot as part of my stance?

 

If neither of these are allowed, what is the distinction/cutoff? 

 

Usually, I'd just take a drop if it's in a hazard, but sometimes this happens in an area of play and I'd like to know what is allowed. There is one "christmas tree" on my course that has very low and wide branches. If you somehow end up under that tree, you need to know how to play the ball and get it clear as you may have to take multiple unplayable lies to get it out of the tree's radius.  Or it's a billiards-style golf shot with your putter to get it clear (assuming that's allowed-I don't know why it wouldn't be). 

 

 

By your descriptions above, you'll incur some penalties!

See these two Clarifications for some guidance:

8.1b/2 – Examples of “Fairly Taking a Stance”

Although a player is allowed to play in any direction, they are not entitled to a normal stance or swing and must adapt to the situation and use the least intrusive course of action.

Examples of actions that are considered fairly taking a stance and are allowed under Rule 8.1b even if the action results in an improvement include:

• Backing into a branch or a boundary object when that is the only way to take a stance for the selected stroke, even if this moves the branch or boundary object out of the way or causes it to bend or break.

• Bending a branch with their hands to get under a tree to play a ball when that is the only way to get under the tree to take a stance.

See8.1b/3 for when a player gets a penalty for doing more than is necessary to take a stance.

8.1b/3 – Examples of Not “Fairly Taking a Stance”

Examples of actions that are not considered fairly taking a stance and will result in a penalty under Rule 8.1a if they improve the conditions affecting the stroke include:

• Deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with a hand, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.

• Standing on tall grass or weeds in a way that pushes them down and to the side so that they are out of the way of the area of intended stance or swing, when a stance could have been taken without doing so.

• Hooking one branch on another or braiding two weeds to keep them away from the stance or swing.

• Using a hand to bend a branch that obscures the view of the ball after taking the stance.

• Bending an interfering branch in taking a stance when a stance could have been taken without doing so.

 

[jlbos83]

Well, darn!  I had just cut that, and came back to paste it... I'm too slow!

[davep043]

@rogolf has given all the details you should need, but I'll go back to the Rule that he has clarified.  8.1b(6) says you are specifically allowed to:

" Fairly take a stance by taking reasonable actions to get to the ball and take a stance.

But when doing so the player:

Is not entitled to a normal stance or swing, and

Must use the least intrusive course of action to deal with the particular situation."

Standing on an interfering bush doesn't sound like the least intrusive way to take a stance.  Intentionally backing into a branch so it no longer interferes just might be the least intrusive way to get there, but more likely there's a less intrusive way.  

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

There is one "christmas tree" on my course that has very low and wide branches. If you somehow end up under that tree, you need to know how to play the ball and get it clear as you may have to take multiple unplayable lies to get it out of the tree's radius.  Or it's a billiards-style golf shot with your putter to get it clear (assuming that's allowed-I don't know why it wouldn't be). 

You can always take Back on the Line relief to get clear of that one tree, or Stroke and Distance, you're not limited to 2 clublength lateral relief.  As for a "billiards-style shot, not allowed, the first bit of 10.1a says, in part, "the player must fairly strike at the ball with any part of the head of the club".

[RoyalMustang]

21 hours ago, davep043 said:

@rogolf has given all the details you should need, but I'll go back to the Rule that he has clarified.  8.1b(6) says you are specifically allowed to:

" Fairly take a stance by taking reasonable actions to get to the ball and take a stance.

But when doing so the player:

Is not entitled to a normal stance or swing, and

Must use the least intrusive course of action to deal with the particular situation."

Standing on an interfering bush doesn't sound like the least intrusive way to take a stance.  Intentionally backing into a branch so it no longer interferes just might be the least intrusive way to get there, but more likely there's a less intrusive way.  

You can always take Back on the Line relief to get clear of that one tree, or Stroke and Distance, you're not limited to 2 clublength lateral relief.  As for a "billiards-style shot, not allowed, the first bit of 10.1a says, in part, "the player must fairly strike at the ball with any part of the head of the club".

 

So back of the line relief is acceptable in an unplayable lie situation as well as a lateral hazard? I didn't know that. In this case, back-of-the-line would be the preferred outcome. I also thought it was one club length, not 2, for an unplayable lie. Good to know! 

 

I was thinking of a billiards-style shot but hitting it with the putter face, not the grip end. But there is no reason to do that when I can just take a no-stress penalty stroke behind. 

[jlbos83]

Unplayable options (not available in a penalty area, and a bit different in a bunker):

1. Stroke and distance.

2. Back on the line. (back on the line from the hole, through the ball position, not the line of entry)

3. Two club lengths, not nearer the hole.

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

I didn't know that.

 

Red penalty area relief and unplayable ball relief are as "Easy as ABC".

 

A = "again" (as in replay or stroke-and-distance)

B = "back" (for back on the line)

C = "club lengths" (for two club lengths of lateral relief)

 

I didn't make this up, though I wish I could take credit. It came from a PGA/USGA Rules Workshop instructor about fifteen years ago. (2019 inserted a bit more fine print into the operation, but the gist is about the same.)

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=17&subrulenum=1

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=19

[davep043]

3 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

So back of the line relief is acceptable in an unplayable lie situation as well as a lateral hazard? I didn't know that. In this case, back-of-the-line would be the preferred outcome. I also thought it was one club length, not 2, for an unplayable lie. Good to know! 

Others have quite accurately summarized the options for Unplayable Ball, but you might want to go and read the Rule for yourself.  @sui generis has provided the link to Rule 19 in his post above.

[Augster]

6 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

So back of the line relief is acceptable in an unplayable lie situation as well as a lateral hazard? I didn't know that. In this case, back-of-the-line would be the preferred outcome. I also thought it was one club length, not 2, for an unplayable lie. Good to know! 

 

I was thinking of a billiards-style shot but hitting it with the putter face, not the grip end. But there is no reason to do that when I can just take a no-stress penalty stroke behind. 

Generally, if you’re “paying” for relief, with a penalty stroke, it’s 2 club lengths. 
 

If you’re getting free relief, it’s one club length. 
 

Generally. 

[denkea]

13 hours ago, Augster said:

Generally, if you’re “paying” for relief, with a penalty stroke, it’s 2 club lengths. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but if taking relief via Back On The Line you only have one club length where the ball is dropped.  ???????

[ShortGolfer]

I try to remember to practice penalty shots.  I grew up with "play it as lies" so that is my default thinking.

Taking a penalty and recovering with an up and down is a great outcome to practice!  

Practicing "every shot counts" is something I'll mix into my practice rounds. 

I want to be able to drop into that mode of thinking whenever I need to.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but if taking relief via Back On The Line you only have one club length where the ball is dropped.  ???????

?

I’m talking about the club length relief option. 
 

The Back on line option is a completely different option. 
 

There are separate options. See SUI’s “ABC” above. A: Play “A”gain, B: “B”ack on line, C- “C”lub lengths. 
 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but if taking relief via Back On The Line you only have one club length where the ball is dropped.  ???????

With back-on-the-line, you must drop on the line. The ball may then roll up to one club-length in any direction, including closer to the hole. 

[sui generis]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

With back-on-the-line, you must drop on the line. The ball may then roll up to one club-length in any direction, including closer to the hole. 

 

Which is a sort-of two club-lengths if one envisions a club-length in any direction, but only sort of. 😉 ps The 2023 back on the line procedure is a thing of beauty in my opinion.

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 10/19/2023 at 11:09 AM, sui generis said:

 

Which is a sort-of two club-lengths if one envisions a club-length in any direction, but only sort of. 😉 ps The 2023 back on the line procedure is a thing of beauty in my opinion.

 

Yes, but my interpretation of what @rogolf just said is that it differs from most other relief options. I.e. if you're taking an unplayable, you have two club lengths relief area (on either side of where the ball rests actually, plus a semicircle formed by the two club length no nearer the hole behind you) to drop, and you can drop anywhere you like in the semicircle of two club length radius around the ball. Once dropped, the ball must come to rest within the relief area. So it's actually viewed laterally as a 4 club length relief area (2 club lengths on one side of the ball, and two club lengths on the other). 

 

Whereas back of line you must drop ON the line. You don't get to choose one club length left or right of the line where to make your drop. And then you have a circle with radius one club length from the drop point that the ball must come to rest. 

 

So not only is the relief area smaller on the back of the line relief--with the exception of course that you have the choice to go back as far as you darn well please--but you have no choice where in that relief area the drop must be made. Once you select how far back you're dropping, it must be dropped on the line of relief not a club length either side of it. 

[sui generis]

40 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Once you select how far back you're dropping, it must be dropped on the line of relief not a club length either side of it. 

 

Thanks, I know how it works. We were just having rules nerd fun. 😉

[davep043]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

but you have no choice where in that relief area the drop must be made

Technically speaking, you do not have a Relief Area until you drop the ball, "The spot on the line where the ball first touches the ground when dropped creates a relief area that is one club-length in any direction from that point".  I know, this is a really small nit, but that's the concept in the Rules.

More Rules Nerd fun!  

[betarhoalphadelta]

Hey, I come here to learn. I was already a nerd, now I can just apply it to golf rules.