WHS Objections (from one low handicapper)

[naval2006]

Yesterday we played fourball best ball in our Saturday competition. We’re individually alloted the shots on each hole and we use 85% each teammate of your playing hdc. 
 

One of the guys playing with us started playing in march and he carried a 45 hdc. He shot loads of triples that were net pars. It was a bit disturbing at times. Especially because I was keeping their score.  They didn’t post a good score only because the course was soft and wet after the previous night’s heavy rain and it was awfully windy too. On hard running grounds they would have shot low 60s or even high 50s. 

[Colin L]

A player achieves a number of net pars in his round.   Isn't that what his handicap is intended to make possible?  When he starts shooting a load of net birdies and eagles, that's the time to start getting disturbed. 

[SNIPERBBB]

On 11/16/2023 at 5:50 PM, mark m said:

Thanks for posting the article. Unfortunately for Carly (mentioned in the first article) and others in Cat 1, they will continue to see no reward for good play unless some changes are made. Here in states what we call “flights” (your categories) are used for the prizes/payouts as well. Or do you use those already in the UK? The article doesn’t say it, but seems to imply the prizes are for the entire field? When I was involved in club leadership, a top priority was gaining participation from the single digit players who were caught between the scratch players - who did well on gross based prizes - and the mid to high guys who dominated the net prizes. A good season long schedule of events, proper course set-up, various ways to win, an engaged handicap committee, and using flights where possible played a big part in our success. Subsequent Boards have never approached our season over season participation levels. It wasn’t easy and I am not sure we will ever get there again because it’s a different club now. 
 

Why did I/we concentrate on the single digit players? They were the core of the club. They played the most and worked at it. By the way, I don’t mean to say you need 5 flights/categories of payouts. Perhaps 2 or 3 will work. But they should experiment a little and perhaps a slightly higher entry fee will be needed to cover the prizes.
 

Below is the second to last paragraph in the article. These first two sentences say it well, and you need to keep them engaged to have good comps. I hope you find a way. 

 

“The problem is that Category 1 players are more consistent and are likely to play more. During the season, they work on their game, find a vein of form, put in more General Play scores and are pleased to see their handicap improving. Casual players in higher categories are capable of rogue low scores but also capable of playing poorly compared to their best and so the average of scores counting to their handicap index stays higher.”

 

Dont know about the golf culture in the UK but there are way too many retired 20+ handicap golfers in the USA that play way more golf than I do. I've played more in the last 2 years than I've ever done thanks to losing my job over jab mandates, but still I dont play nearly as much as these guys.  Bulk of play on almost any golf course comes from either the retirement crowd or the guys that have incomes where they dont have to go into the office much.

[SNIPERBBB]

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Edited November 20, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[SNIPERBBB]

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Edited November 20, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[mark m]

2 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Dont know about the golf culture in the UK but there are way too many retired 20+ handicap golfers in the USA that play way more golf than I do. I've played more in the last 2 years than I've ever done thanks to losing my job over jab mandates, but still I dont play nearly as much as these guys.  Bulk of play on almost any golf course comes from either the retirement crowd or the guys that have incomes where they dont have to go into the office much.

 

Every club is different, but back then I looked our handicap distribution for club members and it was bell shaped and mirrored the distribution curve provided by the USGA for those in the entire system. But rounds played/posted was skewed towards the better players. They play in less than ideal conditions at the beginning and end of the year, or other poor weather, go on golf vacations and post scores, etc. 

 

I have found there is a difference in what the guys like to see in formats of play for organized competitions/tournaments. In general, Fourball better ball formats appeal to about everyone. But you can’t do those all the time. Better players like an occasional foursome (alternate shot) format, or stroke play formats when every shot counts, and they also want to see appropriate handicap allowances when applicable, and/or match play among their handicap peers. Many of the higher guys prefer ABCD shambles, ABCD scrambles, formats with mulligans, etc. They don’t like handicap allowances either. When they get control they institute these types of formats and tend to be thwarted because many of the better players won’t sign up. Knowing your club, discussing preferences and options with the members, and so on - and put together a good schedule. Explain why it is formatted in a certain way, etc. Just my 2 cents.

[North Butte]

34 minutes ago, mark m said:

 

Every club is different, but back then I looked our handicap distribution for club members and it was bell shaped and mirrored the distribution curve provided by the USGA for those in the entire system. But rounds played/posted was skewed towards the better players. They play in less than ideal conditions at the beginning and end of the year, or other poor weather, go on golf vacations and post scores, etc. 

 

I have found there is a difference in what the guys like to see in formats of play for organized competitions/tournaments. In general, Fourball better ball formats appeal to about everyone. But you can’t do those all the time. Better players like an occasional foursome (alternate shot) format, or stroke play formats when every shot counts, and they also want to see appropriate handicap allowances when applicable, and/or match play among their handicap peers. Many of the higher guys prefer ABCD shambles, ABCD scrambles, formats with mulligans, etc. They don’t like handicap allowances either. When they get control they institute these types of formats and tend to be thwarted because many of the better players won’t sign up. Knowing your club, discussing preferences and options with the members, and so on - and put together a good schedule. Explain why it is formatted in a certain way, etc. Just my 2 cents.

I don't actually play with the "better players" at my club but the way my friends who do have described their games it's almost always some variation on the ABCD thing and then four or five different games/bets nested within that ABCD team structure. Or something like that. 

 

When I overhear them comparing scorecards and settling bets afterwards it's like listening in on a tax audit or something. I'm just a hack playing 4-5x a week and am happy in a group that plays a much more basic game for a few bucks. 

[DaveLeeNC]

Our club (mostly retirees) seems to have organized play be dominated by four person team events where scores include some form of less than all the balls or Stableford scoring for the case where all balls count. Side games show up occasionally but seem to be atypical. 

 

dave

[North Butte]

8 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Our club (mostly retirees) seems to have organized play be dominated by four person team events where scores include some form of less than all the balls or Stableford scoring for the case where all balls count. Side games show up occasionally but seem to be atypical. 

 

dave

Yep, that's the retired guys deal at my place too. Maybe once a month a different format but the rest of the time just three or four man teams doing points. 

 

It's the younger groups that play for real money with the elaborate games. 

[rogolf]

16 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Our club (mostly retirees) seems to have organized play be dominated by four person team events where scores include some form of less than all the balls or Stableford scoring for the case where all balls count. Side games show up occasionally but seem to be atypical. 

 

dave

That's the format the groups I play in work - four person teams playing against each other.  Sometimes counting two best net per hole, or '40', where the teams has to use 40 hole scores over the 18 holes, most under par wins (must decide at the end of each hole how many scores to use on that hole).  When there is a group of three amongst the fours, we play Stableford - the four person teams counts the three best on each hole; the groups of three count the best and the second best twice (to make three scores) on each hole.  Our games never use all the scores in a group, ie, allow one player to blob on a hole.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by rogolf

[DaveLeeNC]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

When there is a group of three amongst the fours, we play Stableford - the four person teams counts the three best on each hole; the groups of three count the best and the second best twice (to make three scores) on each hole.  Our games never use all the scores in a group, ie, allow one player to have a bad hole.

 

Interesting. When we have mixed size groups in our 'not club organized' play (not sure how organized club play works these days) we typically play all balls count Stableford and the winning team is the team with the highest point total per player. We even had one case where a guy had to leave after 11 holes (some kind of emergency at home) and the winning team was the team with the 'most points per hole played'. We have used a rotating blind on occasion where (for the threesome) the first name on the card has his score count twice on hole #1, then the second name has his score count twice on #2, and so on. 

 

But our group seems to prefer the Stableford per player approach. We rarely play anything other than Stableford these days. 

 

dave

[mark m]

As we can see, there is a bit of a chasm here in preferences. Whether it be age or handicap range. So it’s obviously best to know your club. But there is also a concern on the handicap front with best ball because guys will take the opportunity to inflate scores on holes where their score isn’t used. If that format provides the majority of scores in the system, you could have a problem. It can be frustrating dealing with this issue. I hope it goes well at your club!

 

Happy Thanksgiving 

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, mark m said:

As we can see, there is a bit of a chasm here in preferences. Whether it be age or handicap range. So it’s obviously best to know your club. But there is also a concern on the handicap front with best ball because guys will take the opportunity to inflate scores on holes where their score isn’t used. If that format provides the majority of scores in the system, you could have a problem. It can be frustrating dealing with this issue. I hope it goes well at your club!

 

Happy Thanksgiving 

Our "group" is self-policing wrt to Rules and handicapping.  We don't play with the same four guys every day, it's mixed up each day.  And having two nationally certified referees within the larger group helps!