KBS tour vs tour lite stiffness? Confusing...

[Brokensticks]

Hello. 

 

Had a fitting and to get the launch up effortlessly I was fitted into a KBS Tour lite S with 86mph 7iron. According to KBS I should be x-stiff but they didnt have it so kinda have to wing it. 

What confuses me is reading about the shaft and frequence and I hear that the normal "Tour" in regular is stiffer than Tour Lite Xstiff so now Im very confused in what to actually get.

 

I liked the Tour Lite way over my Modus105S, finally I feel the club more at D0 than my gamers at D5. Also tried the Modus in another clubhead and first two shots was crazy topping of the ball so I guess its safe to say my actual gamers is a bad match with my swing, atleast thats what Im feeling after a 6 months of trying to tinker. I think Im a smooth loader, basicly setting everything and just unloading in a big arc even if I try to squeeze it at the bottom. I have a few questions before ordering.

 

1. Will the xstiff tour lite hold up even if I exceed the speed if Im still having my swing? Staying smooth

2. Is regular Tour actually stiffer bend profile? If I could get a 110-115g shaft I would like it but not really feeling Modus120s which is similiar profile. 

 

I would like a little more weight but I wouldnt want it to get looser? Buying Tour in regular just feels weird when into X if the Lite ones...

 

Thanks

[MattM97]

Why didn't you discuss this with the fitter? 

 

Flex isn't universal, also with steel shafts weight usually adds to flex. You'll probably never see a 130g regular flex shaft unless someone makes a 150g XS.

 

Did the shaft you test worked as you wanted and you felt comfortable with them? 

[Pepperturbo]

18 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Hello. 

 

Had a fitting and to get the launch up effortlessly I was fitted into a KBS Tour lite S with 86mph 7iron. According to KBS I should be x-stiff but they didnt have it so kinda have to wing it. 

What confuses me is reading about the shaft and frequence and I hear that the normal "Tour" in regular is stiffer than Tour Lite Xstiff so now Im very confused in what to actually get.

 

I liked the Tour Lite way over my Modus105S, finally I feel the club more at D0 than my gamers at D5. Also tried the Modus in another clubhead and first two shots was crazy topping of the ball so I guess its safe to say my actual gamers is a bad match with my swing, atleast thats what Im feeling after a 6 months of trying to tinker. I think Im a smooth loader, basicly setting everything and just unloading in a big arc even if I try to squeeze it at the bottom. I have a few questions before ordering.

 

1. Will the xstiff tour lite hold up even if I exceed the speed if Im still having my swing? Staying smooth

2. Is regular Tour actually stiffer bend profile? If I could get a 110-115g shaft I would like it but not really feeling Modus120s which is similiar profile. 

 

I would like a little more weight but I wouldnt want it to get looser? Buying Tour in regular just feels weird when into X if the Lite ones...

 

Thanks

Not sure where you got that info.  I don't buy it.  Years back I played KBS Tour S flex yet played X100 before, still have them in storage.  KBS Tour are a uniquely smooth shaft   Often people misconstrue a shaft's smoothness as not playing to flex, that's an error in judgment.

 

My iron SS is 85ish, and I current play "S" flex in any shaft.  But realizing max distance is tied to the shaft's weight.  I do not believe, X-flex profile even in a lighter weight shaft fits me.  Yes, I can make X-flex work, except I can't get maximum distance out of X-flex, yet I can S-flex.

[gdb99]

There are many stiff and x flex shafts out there play softer than regular flex shafts. 
 

Weight can be more important than flex, generally speaking. 
 

Sounds like you need to try an x flex Tour Lite before you buy. Also, the profile of the Tour Lite is completely different than the Tour. 
 

It’s not like 30 years ago where you were either stiff or regular flex. There are so many shafts, weights, and profiles now. 

[Brokensticks]

51 minutes ago, MattM97 said:

Why didn't you discuss this with the fitter? 

 

Flex isn't universal, also with steel shafts weight usually adds to flex. You'll probably never see a 130g regular flex shaft unless someone makes a 150g XS.

 

Did the shaft you test worked as you wanted and you felt comfortable with them? 

Its something I came across when reading here and other forums. The fitter didnt know X was rated as 80-85mph. 
 

It felt good but it was the last shaft I tried but still had the same chs. $ taper went abit further with less speed but didnt get the height I wanted

29 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Not sure where you got that info.  I don't buy it.  Years back I played KBS Tour S flex yet played X100 before, still have them in storage.  KBS Tour are a uniquely smooth shaft   Often people misconstrue a shaft's smoothness as not playing to flex, that's an error in judgment.

 

My iron SS is 85ish, and I current play "S" flex in any shaft.  But realizing max distance is tied to the shaft's weight.  I do not believe, X-flex profile even in a lighter weight shaft fits me.  Yes, I can make X-flex work, except I can't get maximum distance out of X-flex, yet I can S-flex.

Its info from the forums pointing at KBS trim instructions, the frequence is the same in 120 regular and Lite X. 
 

Got me abit unsure

[PNW]

KBS Experience picks up the phone quickly and gets one of their fitters on the line for these types of questions. I've done so a couple times and they are very helpful. They'll give you a definitive answer. Just not whether you are looking at taper vs parallel (their trim instructions are for parallel) and I don't know if there would be a difference in answer for either. 

[LoopySwing13]

6 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

Its something I came across when reading here and other forums. The fitter didnt know X was rated as 80-85mph.

This gives me immediate concerns. 
X swing speed does NOT = Y flex, especially across different weights and profiles. I was fit into Px6.5 2 years ago and have not played “x flex” in 12+ years prior. My fitter looked at many factors beyond SS, and even reassured me when I said.. “PX6.5?!?!” Even funnier (in my own mind) I was fit to play stiff in woods! I always assumed stiffer in woods and “less stiff” in irons. 

 

I came from steelfiber 110S and tried SF110X, X100, modus 120x, PX 6.0 and 6.5. Ultimately got PX6.5 and all those shafts played different. But by looking at things like AoA, spin, clubhead speed, dispersion, etc etc it landed my in those shafts. By ALL my own measures and self perception I would have bought and sold for the rest of my life and never landed on those. The clubs I have now have been by far the best set for me ever, woods and irons. 

 

Apologies for my road trip tangent, but make sure you have an experienced fitter and throw away any preconceptions about what you think you know (unless of course you are an expert fitter or knowledgeable). Not a shot at you just find a reputable fitter and trust the process. Sounds like you may have gotten short changed. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by LoopySwing13

[mizuno player]

Do not fit by Swing speed = a certain shaft flex. 

 

Weight is #1. This allows the club to be delivered properly and squarely to the ball. 

 

If the KBS tour lite S provided the best numbers and feel. That's the shaft for you. 

 

The shaft manufacturers have those swing speed charts as guidelines. They should not be taken as Gospel. 

[taylorx300]

I doubt you will find a KBS Tour Lite in X flex to test though. Not something the manufactures will offer in their fitting matrix.

[Arlin964]

I second the recommendation to call KBS Experience. 
 

+1 (760) 383-8687

 

I did a fitting there last week and I have to say it was the best fitting I’ve ever had. I was fit by David Anderson. He was great. You can see his style on the kbs fitting videos on Trotties YouTube channel. David is incredibly knowledgeable. 
 

What I picked up during the fitting is that the lite version of each shaft is nothing different than a weight variation of that same profile. In the kbs shaft world, it’s almost an exact correlation of weight = stiffness. 
 

For example, we found that the CTaper was the best profile for me. He quickly determined that I’m extremely weight sensitive. My 7i speed was 87 on a bad shaft matchup, and up to 92 on a good one. So right between S and X in the traditional shaft world. 120g was just a smidge too heavy for me, so he wanted me in the stiffest shaft he could get at 115g. 
 

Enter CTaper Lite 115X. It felt perfect. My next best was CTaper Stiff 120. 
 

In this instance, Stiff 120 is actually stiffer than Lite X 115. We know this because they CPM each shaft in their matrix. 
 

The CT Lite X 115 measured at 309cpm.

CT Stiff 120 measured at 313cpm. Very close but a hair stiffer. Only because the weight is what stiffens it up. 
 

In your instance:

Tour Lite X = 105g

Tour Reg = 110g

 

OF COURSE ASSUMING WE ARE TALKING TAPER TIP. 
 

So that philosophy checks out if I have remembered correctly. 
 

Regardless, this is my shill to either call KBS X or go get fit there. David was a master. I learned more about my own swing and shaft needs in that session than any other experience I’ve had. 

[Thayneil]

16 hours ago, gdb99 said:

There are many stiff and x flex shafts out there play softer than regular flex shafts. 
 

Weight can be more important than flex, generally speaking. 
 

Sounds like you need to try an x flex Tour Lite before you buy. Also, the profile of the Tour Lite is completely different than the Tour. 
 

It’s not like 30 years ago where you were either stiff or regular flex. There are so many shafts, weights, and profiles now. 

Kbs web site says the tour lite x and the tour r are both 5.0flex

 

Its all there to.compare

[gdb99]

1 hour ago, Thayneil said:

Kbs web site says the tour lite x and the tour r are both 5.0flex

 

Its all there to.compare

But what are the bend profiles? Same?

[Thayneil]

2 hours ago, gdb99 said:

But what are the bend profiles? Same?

you  can check the website  and see the overlap with  weights

 

it was more confusing when the 105 was there also

 

the  105 x was basically  115 and  similar to  tour rplus

 

seriously 30 minutes on the web site and all will be clear

 

 

 

 

[PNW]

@Thayneil what's posted is for the parallel tips, not taper. there might be a difference in butt stiffness between the two, so depends on what OP is looking for. regardless, the info is a quick easy call away. 

 

@Arlin964 thanks for sharing. I've seen the videos and their fitting process does seem impressive. What stood out is that they use the same club connex adapters as CC but KBS drills out 8 granms from the test club hosels so they will be the same weight/feel as what the final build will be. I'd love to do a fitting there at some point. 

[Thayneil]

11 hours ago, PNW said:

@Thayneil what's posted is for the parallel tips, not taper. there might be a difference in butt stiffness between the two, so depends on what OP is looking for. regardless, the info is a quick easy call away. 

 

@Arlin964 thanks for sharing. I've seen the videos and their fitting process does seem impressive. What stood out is that they use the same club connex adapters as CC but KBS drills out 8 granms from the test club hosels so they will be the same weight/feel as what the final build will be. I'd love to do a fitting there at some point. 

The info is for taper with parr charts seperate

 

Basically the light weight shafts are 3.0 in R with the heavier tour shafts 5.0 in r

 

Hence the tour lite x being the same flex as the Tour R

 

Parr charts give you the tipping for different flexes with the shaft shaft

 

The web site is pretty good now and easy to understand after a few looks

[PNW]

@Thayneil interesting. Where are you seeing that for taper shafts?

[shaolingolfer]

I played both before, I will say say go with the KBS tour.  Tour lite has all kind of quality issues.

[dmeeksDC]

20 minutes ago, shaolingolfer said:

I played both before, I will say say go with the KBS tour.  Tour lite has all kind of quality issues.

Can you specify what those are? Have not heard that there is a problem with the quality of the shaft. 

[shaolingolfer]

Just search the topics, it's well known that it will broke off at the tip.  I have it on my PXG, 4 out of 5 failed within 9 months, 3 broke off on course and fortunately I am able to locate the heads that flew away.

[dmeeksDC]

1 hour ago, shaolingolfer said:

Just search the topics, it's well known that it will broke off at the tip.  I have it on my PXG, 4 out of 5 failed within 9 months, 3 broke off on course and fortunately I am able to locate the heads that flew away.

That’s wild, would definitely be a bummer! Your issue sounds unusual, perhaps even a build issue could be part of it. I find PXG’s clubs are fantastic but you’ll also note on wrx plenty of posts on quality control issues and mistakes with their builds. I know PXG uses parallel tips so it does involve getting the trims right. Having 80 percent fail is a massive rate with any shaft. I’ve not played a shaft as light as the Tour Lite so I don’t know much about it. Could have been a bad batch of shafts. It is hard to say. Did they replace them for you? The Tour Lite has not been recalled by KBS as far as I know. 
 

I do know KBS does not reinforce the tips of their shafts, which is a key part of their great feel. You’ll see complaints about C Taper bent tips. I play that shaft and have not had that happen. So while I recognize KBS is not for everyone, I like the design because IMO KBS is superior on feel to most others. If they reinforce the tips, won’t be the same shaft. I’d stop playing them.
 

But I imagine there could be a point when the weight gets too light in steel for faster and/or harder swingers, I don’t profess any expert knowledge on that subject. I never heard of issues with the now-replaced Tour 90 (stiff is 102g in that one.) I assumed the Tour Lite stiff is essentially the same as the Tour 90 stiff. Dynamic Gold has stronger tips. The DG 105 is probably more durable but I hate the feel of that shaft. Funny because standard Dynamic Gold feels really nice to me. They seem better with more heft. 

[shaolingolfer]

This is not an isolated issue, not a swing related issue, not a PXG issue.  Multiple topics here, on facebook and other forums has talked about it.  

 

Good luck.

[Thayneil]

14 hours ago, PNW said:

@Thayneil interesting. Where are you seeing that for taper shafts?

its actually under  the parallel tipping instructions  but the first table  represents  taper tip  flexes

 

with kbs   weights  =flexes  so a 110  kbs  tour lite  x  is the same flex  as Tour  R  maybe even the same shaft

 

 

 

 

[Thayneil]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:23 PM, Arlin964 said:

I second the recommendation to call KBS Experience. 
 

+1 (760) 383-8687

 

I did a fitting there last week and I have to say it was the best fitting I’ve ever had. I was fit by David Anderson. He was great. You can see his style on the kbs fitting videos on Trotties YouTube channel. David is incredibly knowledgeable. 
 

What I picked up during the fitting is that the lite version of each shaft is nothing different than a weight variation of that same profile. In the kbs shaft world, it’s almost an exact correlation of weight = stiffness. 
 

For example, we found that the CTaper was the best profile for me. He quickly determined that I’m extremely weight sensitive. My 7i speed was 87 on a bad shaft matchup, and up to 92 on a good one. So right between S and X in the traditional shaft world. 120g was just a smidge too heavy for me, so he wanted me in the stiffest shaft he could get at 115g. 
 

Enter CTaper Lite 115X. It felt perfect. My next best was CTaper Stiff 120. 
 

In this instance, Stiff 120 is actually stiffer than Lite X 115. We know this because they CPM each shaft in their matrix. 
 

The CT Lite X 115 measured at 309cpm.

CT Stiff 120 measured at 313cpm. Very close but a hair stiffer. Only because the weight is what stiffens it up. 
 

In your instance:

Tour Lite X = 105g

Tour Reg = 110g

 

OF COURSE ASSUMING WE ARE TALKING TAPER TIP. 
 

So that philosophy checks out if I have remembered correctly. 
 

Regardless, this is my shill to either call KBS X or go get fit there. David was a master. I learned more about my own swing and shaft needs in that session than any other experience I’ve had. 

if the  tour R  110 is  5.0 we can estimate  the Tour Lite  to  be  3.5 4.0 4.5 in R S and X

 

 

[Stuart_G]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:06 PM, Brokensticks said:

1. Will the xstiff tour lite hold up even if I exceed the speed if Im still having my swing? Staying smooth

 

 

On 11/29/2023 at 2:11 PM, Brokensticks said:

The fitter didnt know X was rated as 80-85mph. 
 

Its info from the forums pointing at KBS trim instructions, the frequence is the same in 120 regular and Lite X.

 

Swing speed ranges are recommendations - not ratings.   The shaft doesn't care how fast you swing it and can "hold up"  under significantly more stress and loading than indicated by any swing speed range.   If the shaft didn't break - you didn't overload it.

 

Butt frequency isn't an accurate representation of what the stiffness feel is going to be for any individual.

 

The important question is really how well can your swing hold up when you feel the shaft loading more than you're expecting?

 

Basically if it feels too soft then it likely is too soft and you'd be best of finding something else.   But none of the specs (flex labels, frequency, FCM numbers, bend points, launch characteristics, etc..) are going to help you find the shaft that has the feel that fits your expectations.  The ONLY way to do that is to get out and try different options and see how they feel for you with your swing and what happens to the ball flight.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Stuart_G

[taylorx300]

Stuart again with the best answer to a question! Totally agree.

[ob1soccer]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:54 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Swing speed ranges are recommendations - not ratings.   The shaft doesn't care how fast you swing it and can "hold up"  under significantly more stress and loading than indicated by any swing speed range.   If the shaft didn't break - you didn't overload it.

 

Butt frequency isn't an accurate representation of what the stiffness feel is going to be for any individual.

 

The important question is really how well can your swing hold up when you feel the shaft loading more than you're expecting?

 

Basically if it feels too soft then it likely is too soft and you'd be best of finding something else.   But none of the specs (flex labels, frequency, FCM numbers, bend points, launch characteristics, etc..) are going to help you find the shaft that has the feel that fits your expectations.  The ONLY way to do that is to get out and try different options and see how they feel for you with your swing and what happens to the ball flight.

 

thanks for the info