joe

[popsepp]

my ball is on the fairway but an ant is resting on it. Striking the ball will kill the ant which I am unprepared to do. Can I remove the ant and what is my penalty?

[rogolf]

6 hours ago, popsepp said:

my ball is on the fairway but an ant is resting on it. Striking the ball will kill the ant which I am unprepared to do. Can I remove the ant and what is my penalty?

A live insect on a ball is a loose impediment.  If you remove the loose impediment and the ball moves, it is a one stroke penalty.  If you touch the ball purposely while removing the ant, it is a one stroke penalty.

You could wait until the ant leaves, or encourage it to leave, maybe by blowing on it?

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

A live insect on a ball is a loose impediment. 

 

Unless it is attached to it. An ant is not but a snail often is.

 

@popsepp: Hit the darn ball! You must have stepped on a multitude of insects already during your round!!

[sui generis]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

touch the ball purposely while removing the ant,

 However, one may accidentally touch the ball while removing a loose impediment. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 However, one may accidentally touch the ball while removing a loose impediment. 

 

Technically you are correct, but...

 

As the desired outcome for the player is to have the insect removed from the ball they should be aware that any action fo physically affect the said insect may result in touching the ball. Thus the touching itself may be accidental but anticipated as well.

 

In such a case I as a referee would be inclined to rule AGAINST the player, certainly depending on the details of the case.

[caniac6]

I hate ants.I’d knock the crap out of it.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Technically you are correct, but...

 

As the desired outcome for the player is to have the insect removed from the ball they should be aware that any action fo physically affect the said insect may result in touching the ball. Thus the touching itself may be accidental but anticipated as well.

 

In such a case I as a referee would be inclined to rule AGAINST the player, certainly depending on the details of the case.

I don't think the anticipation of the possibility of accidentally touching the ball turns accidental touching into a deliberate touching.

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I don't think the anticipation of the possibility of accidentally touching the ball turns accidental touching into a deliberate touching.

 

Well, there is room between accidental and deliberate touching and that was my point.

 

Once it is anticipated that there will be touching one might say that such an act should be avoided. After all, it is so easy to say "I did not deliberately touch the ball as I was removing that 10 cm long snail from my ball". One might ask would it be possible to remove that snail WITHOUT touching the ball. If not, then touching would not be accidental but deliberate.

[Augster]

Deliberate touching of the ball would be holding it steady with two fingers on one hand then flicking the ant with the other. 
 

Accidentally touching the ball while trying to flick an ant ISN’T deliberately touching the ball. The intent is to touch the ant without touching the ball. Therefore any touching of the ball in that context is accidental. 

[Hawkeye77]

OP forgot to add the "L" to "Joe" so it would rhyme with his name.

[Colin L]

18 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well, there is room between accidental and deliberate touching and that was my point.

 

Once it is anticipated that there will be touching one might say that such an act should be avoided. After all, it is so easy to say "I did not deliberately touch the ball as I was removing that 10 cm long snail from my ball". One might ask would it be possible to remove that snail WITHOUT touching the ball. If not, then touching would not be accidental but deliberate.

The answer is very obviously yes, but it's really  irrelevant considering that as you remarked a snail is more than likely to be sticking to the ball and hence not a loose impediment.

[Mr. Bean]

15 hours ago, Augster said:

Deliberate touching of the ball would be holding it steady with two fingers on one hand then flicking the ant with the other. 
 

Accidentally touching the ball while trying to flick an ant ISN’T deliberately touching the ball. The intent is to touch the ant without touching the ball. Therefore any touching of the ball in that context is accidental. 

 

Basically that is correct but as always, intent matters. Also a player is expected to be careful whenever moving anything that might result in penalty. A good example is when searching one's ball in tall grass the player is not allowed to use any means but has to be careful when conducting that search.

[Schulzmc]

8 hours ago, Colin L said:

The answer is very obviously yes, but it's really  irrelevant considering that as you remarked a snail is more than likely to be sticking to the ball and hence not a loose impediment.

Ants have tiny sticky pads on their feet that they use to hold on to smooth surfaces. So how are they any different than a snail?

[st1800e]

 OP with only one post, hasn’t been on here since that post.
And the thread title is “Joe” ? ….troll.

 

Now we have snails, and sticky ants….

 

Carry on.  

 

 

[Augster]

6 minutes ago, st1800e said:

 OP with only one post, hasn’t been on here since that post.
And the thread title is “Joe” ? ….troll.

 

Now we have snails, and sticky ants….

 

Carry on.  

 

 

I didn’t read it as a troll. I read it as a new member that got swindled on the course and had to go somewhere to vent. 
 

It seems to me, his friend/FC/opponent flicked an ant of his own ball and the OP is “sure” there is a penalty involved. Hence “Can I remove the ant AND what is my penalty?”

 

He’s so SURE there is a penalty involved with removing the ant. He doesn’t even wait for the answer to the first part of the question. 
 

He hasn’t been back into the discussion because he’s not getting the answers he was SURE he was going to get to win his argument/bet/match. 
 

That’s how I read it anyway. 
 

Easy answer OP: No penalty for removing the ant if the ball doesn’t move or isn’t intentionally touched. You lose your bet. Pay up. Good day sir.  
 

 

[st1800e]

Op hasn’t logged in since he posted Saturday.  

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

He hasn’t been back into the discussion

 

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

Ants have tiny sticky pads on their feet that they use to hold on to smooth surfaces. So how are they any different than a snail?

 

Good question. The way I see it is that the ability to move is different between those two and you may be able to encourage an ant to leave the ball by blowing it gently while snail would not be bothered by that. It is similar to the difference between a dry and wet leaf. A dry leaf (= Loose Impediment) you can easily blow away but a wet leaf (= not a LI) sticks hard enough onto the ball to resist that blow. So whether an ant is a Loose Impediment or not is somewhat irrelevant if and when you can have it removed without causing the ball to move.

 

EDIT: You may always simply hit the ball and not be bothered by those insects. An ant would have zero effect but a large snail or a wet leaf may be a different thing.

 

Edited February 27 by Mr. Bean

[jdl]

On 2/25/2024 at 12:25 PM, caniac6 said:

I hate ants.I’d knock the crap out of it.

Yeah, and if you hit a bad one you can yell out, "ANT BALL!" like the pros do.

[SNIPERBBB]

 

 

or just wait 10 seconds and the ant will be gone

Edited March 4 by SNIPERBBB