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The five year driver Paradym - are we hitting a forgiveness vs cost ceiling in 2024?.


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I got fitted yesterday into a Paradym triple diamond - Tensei Blue stiff. Tried multiple shafts, including hzrdus. Hit it long but also two two-way miss. 

Also tried the Cleveland XL2 as it's supposed to be the most forgiving out there. Straighter but felt too whippy. Tensei shaft as well.

 

Then went back to my tried and true - 2018 PRGR RS with Mitsi Diamana 'made for prgr'.

 

106 Clubhead speed, better dispersion than both, around 2300 spin (around 200 more than the paradym). I'm a 1.6 index.

I get around 250 Carry with the PRGR and 270 total distance.

 

Lost about 3 yards on average to the Callaway. Admittedly, I felt like the fitter was trying to get my spin down as well as sell me some older stock - I know the triple is not designed for a less-than-consistent ball striker like me.

 

Ping G430 - more spin, similar dispersion as my 2018 PRGR, similar distance.

 

Ended up buying a second mint used PRGR for less than 1/3 of the price of the new drivers with a Tour AD shaft on a secondhand golf site in NZ so I can play around with shafts in the future. 

My point is - I got lucky on a self-fitted Japanese manufacturer that I bought on a whim three years ago, but noticed there is not much difference in driver distance or forgiveness over the last five years, especially at the insane prices new drivers go for.  And deep down, I still kinda miss the automatic fairway finder the Titleist 910D3 was! 🙂 

 

Have you had similar experiences?

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I was not fit for my 2018 Callaway rogue. Has a stock stiff shaft. I tuned it down to 8 degrees from 9 degrees myself because the ball flight seemed too high. I’m a good driver of the ball for my handicap (9 right now, fluctuate between 8-10 over past 2 years) based on shotscope data and the eyeball test. Every year I do wonder if I’m giving up something in forgiveness on off center strikes. Tested a bunch of drivers the Rogue ST year and nothing obviously better. Callaway fitter flat out said none of the STs were better for me after a session testing them. The new Ping has me interested in trying again this season. But, I suspect you are right that if one has a driver from last 5 or so years that works well for them, the forgiveness gains may not be that significant. Nonetheless, I plan to do a driver fitting this spring to see if something can knock the rogue out of the bag. 

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9 hours ago, Bushwhacker said:

I'm a 1.6 index.

...

I know the triple is not designed for a less-than-consistent ball striker like me.

 

I get that we all think we aren't the best ball strikers... but trust me that there is no way you got to a 1.6 index without being a pretty good ball striker (relative to the people these clubs are being designed to sell to for sure).

 

That being said, I think the vast majority of the gains in drivers in the last few years have been in "forgiveness" for off center hits (ball speed and direction). 

 

For example, my current driver is a PXG 0811 proto circa 2020. However, I just pulled the trigger on a new driver yesterday after trying the full gamut of stuff in the most recent designs with my teaching Pro (the facility also has a full fitting shop in addition to doing lessons and such). I ended up in a Callaway AI Smoke Max D with a Ventus Red (true velocore, but not TR) 6S.

 

Did I get a little bit more distance than my current gamer on the best strikes? For sure, but probably only about 10 yards at most, and based on what we saw in the fitting, I'd attribute that 80% to finding a better shaft fit and only 20% to the modern heads.

 

However, what was amazing to me was the performance on "poor" strikes, and as a 13 index that is honestly at least 50% of my strikes. Sure, the 5% of absolutely horrible strikes are still horrible. If you totally miss the golf ball and top it / shank it / whatever, no amount of technology is going to do anything about that. But for the remaining 40% of strikes where you still hit the golf ball (more or less) properly with a decent path and face angle but just way out on the toe or in on the heel, the amount of ball speed retention in the new heads as well as directional correction (for lack of a better word) was crazy. Instead of those shots being way out in the rough and only going 200ish yards, those bad strikes are now carrying 230-240 and either staying on the edge of the fairway or just barely getting into the rough (compared to my proper flush shots which I would carry 250-260 with roll on top of that). 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Bushwhacker said:

I got fitted yesterday into a Paradym triple diamond - Tensei Blue stiff. Tried multiple shafts, including hzrdus. Hit it long but also two two-way miss. 

Also tried the Cleveland XL2 as it's supposed to be the most forgiving out there. Straighter but felt too whippy. Tensei shaft as well.

 

Then went back to my tried and true - 2018 PRGR RS with Mitsi Diamana 'made for prgr'.

 

106 Clubhead speed, better dispersion than both, around 2300 spin (around 200 more than the paradym). I'm a 1.6 index.

I get around 250 Carry with the PRGR and 270 total distance.

 

Lost about 3 yards on average to the Callaway. Admittedly, I felt like the fitter was trying to get my spin down as well as sell me some older stock - I know the triple is not designed for a less-than-consistent ball striker like me.

 

Ping G430 - more spin, similar dispersion as my 2018 PRGR, similar distance.

 

Ended up buying a second mint used PRGR for less than 1/3 of the price of the new drivers with a Tour AD shaft on a secondhand golf site in NZ so I can play around with shafts in the future. 

My point is - I got lucky on a self-fitted Japanese manufacturer that I bought on a whim three years ago, but noticed there is not much difference in driver distance or forgiveness over the last five years, especially at the insane prices new drivers go for.  And deep down, I still kinda miss the automatic fairway finder the Titleist 910D3 was! 🙂 

 

Have you had similar experiences?

 

I've bought 3 drivers the last 3 years and I don't think any perform better than the 2014 Cobra Bio Cell that I played for about 6 years. Cobra BiO CELL Driver Review - Golfalot

 

Like said above, if you are getting the right launch, spin & smash then there's really not much improvement. 

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3 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

A good fit is a good fit. Doesnt matter how new or old the equipment is. If you are in the spin/launch window for your club and ball speed there isnt much more you can do on good strikes.

 

There is 100% a difference in off-center strikes in new vs old technology but that is all player dependent on your swing and your personal preferences and new doesnt automatically mean better as there's always trade-offs as you can see.

 

This. Once you have your "perfect shaft," I think (recall a mygolfspy pieces years ago that compared 5-year-old drivers), you're prob getting 1 yd distance/dispersion better each year. Sound/feel is subjective. My game plan is typically to upgrade ever 2 years with the previous year's model. For example, I love the Aldila Rogue 125 (call me old). I found a Tsi3 in good shape for $220. so that's my gamer this year. I don't feel the need to drop $550+ on a new driver every year, when it's 99% as good as the previous version when shafted correctly, which I can get for 1/2 or less.

 

Josh

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2 hours ago, RacineBoxer said:

 

I've bought 3 drivers the last 3 years and I don't think any perform better than the 2014 Cobra Bio Cell that I played for about 6 years. Cobra BiO CELL Driver Review - Golfalot

 

Like said above, if you are getting the right launch, spin & smash then there's really not much improvement. 

I had a Bio Cell Pro that I really liked, then got a FlyZ+ the next year and that was for me phenomenal.   I probably had the best year or two since I was in college off the tee.  Of course, I had to move on, got a Ping, TM, and I don't know what else the next few years, but I kept my Cobras.  I remember pulling them out again a few years later, and I couldn't believe how unforgiving they were compared to what ever I was playing at the time, slight misses seemed to go nowhere.  Maybe I was just striking it better when they were my gamers (I'm sure I was), but it opened my eyes to the advancement in technology......

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12 hours ago, Bushwhacker said:

.......

 

Then went back to my tried and true - 2018 PRGR RS with Mitsi Diamana 'made for prgr'.

 

106 Clubhead speed, better dispersion than both, around 2300 spin (around 200 more than the paradym). I'm a 1.6 index.

I get around 250 Carry with the PRGR and 270 total distance.

 

......

My point is - I got lucky on a self-fitted Japanese manufacturer that I bought on a whim three years ago, but noticed there is not much difference in driver distance or forgiveness over the last five years, especially at the insane prices new drivers go for.  And deep down, I still kinda miss the automatic fairway finder the Titleist 910D3 was! 🙂 

 

Have you had similar experiences?

 

I believe a large part of the superiority of the PRGR is the fact you have been practicing with it for the last 3 years.

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My late FIL told me that a man knows he's been blessed in his life to have one truly good dog, one good driver, and a good woman, not necessarily in that order.

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The answer to better golf is work your butt off and learn how to hit it better, farther, and make more putts.

 

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Every time this comes up I am somehow compelled to point out that the USGA 2023 distance report which has I think 2019 numbers says the average distance of amateurs drives peaked in 2005.  About he same time Wishon said a 300 cc driver gives you all the practical distance increase from “forgiveness” you are going to get.

 

People always respond that new clubs are more forgiving “across the face,” adjustable, hotter, bigger, etc.

 

If that means anything in the real world, why aren’t the drives longer?

 

Maybe drives are straighter and accuracy higher?  But apparently accuracy hovers around 50 for all handicap levels, from which I tend to infer that accuracy without distance is nice, but not that big a deal in improving your score.

 

975 rules!

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Just now, Chunkitgood said:

Every time this comes up I am somehow compelled to point out that the USGA 2023 distance report which has I think 2019 numbers says the average distance of amateurs drives peaked in 2005.  About he same time Wishon said a 300 cc driver gives you all the practical distance increase from “forgiveness” you are going to get.

 

People always respond that new clubs are more forgiving “across the face,” adjustable, hotter, bigger, etc.

 

If that means anything in the real world, why aren’t the drives longer?

 

Maybe drives are straighter and accuracy higher?  But apparently accuracy hovers around 50 for all handicap levels, from which I tend to infer that accuracy without distance is nice, but not that big a deal in improving your score.

 

975 rules!

COR is maxed out and has been for a long time which is why distance hasn't increased for amateurs.  Amateurs in general are looking for more consistency and forgiveness on mishits which is what modern heads offer.  Anything off the sweet spot isn't going to be that much longer comparing modern to past models unless the drivers are grossly misfit. 

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Two thoughts on this, and coming from a guy who believes deeply in getting properly fit.

 

While I agree that improvements in drivers are very much incremental, the real improvement comes not from the club or shaft itself, but from the matchup between a particular club head/shaft combination with the particular swing of a particular golfer, and those improvements can be large, depending on how poorly the previous club fit. Then the question becomes how much are you willing to pay for what might be relatively small improvements.  FOR ME at age 71 and still trying to play competitively, dropping $600 for a new driver IF it gives me yards is a no-brainer.  But I know that’s not for everyone. 
 

The second piece is how a given golfer approaches changes in themselves vis a vis the equipment they use.  Bodies and swings change over time, and so does the optimal equipment.  That doesn’t necessarily happen within each product cycle, but it DOES happen.  Again, this is where finding the best combination becomes the Holy Grail.  So a guy plays a lot more (or less) than he used to, or works on a swing change with an instructor, or gets stronger, or gets older, and so on; he’s now a different golfer who needs a different club.

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I always find the fitting simulator so artificial that I struggle to put a natural swing on it. I like to take a club/shaft combo out on my local where I know every bounce and wind direction.

 

That is why I usually end up 'self-fitting' as a 45 minute session in a booth just doesn't cut it. (Or you mostly cut it 🙂

 

I kept the same Ka'ili in the 910-913-917 and never really thought I gained much - then I went to the Ts2 with a project HZRDS and hit it everywhere. There is quite a bit of tech in the PRGR with crown design and they certainly know how to make a face illegal (EGG driver anyone?) so I might just hunt down a 2021-23 version of the RS in a few years and see how that goes, so I can at least keep this Unicorn shaft as a constant, with relatively same head weight design etc.

 

https://www.prgr-golf.com/archive_clubs/W-73-2018-rs-driver.html

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12 hours ago, rawlins said:

I am slower than you with a higher index and see similarities. Hover around 97-101 swing speed with driver, play off 9. I am currently trying to force myself into Paradym TD head but 910D2 with the same shaft (Proforce V2 6s) feels effortless... produces very similar results on course.

One of the Guys in my regular foursome keeps his old Callaway FTi as a 2 wood - and whenever his new driver goes off the rails he always seems to get the Fti in the fairway. Keep your 910! I wish I had.

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4 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Every time this comes up I am somehow compelled to point out that the USGA 2023 distance report which has I think 2019 numbers says the average distance of amateurs drives peaked in 2005.  About he same time Wishon said a 300 cc driver gives you all the practical distance increase from “forgiveness” you are going to get.

 

People always respond that new clubs are more forgiving “across the face,” adjustable, hotter, bigger, etc.

 

If that means anything in the real world, why aren’t the drives longer?

 

Maybe drives are straighter and accuracy higher?  But apparently accuracy hovers around 50 for all handicap levels, from which I tend to infer that accuracy without distance is nice, but not that big a deal in improving your score.

 

975 rules!

Oh 2005…I was 31, expected my first child, damn near won my state open and played or practiced 7 days a week. Fast forward and I turn 50 this year…play 9 holes twice a week, rarely practice and drive it straighter than I ever have and just as long as I was back then. The driver today is head and shoulders over drivers from 2005…shafts are better and the golf ball is insanely good. The technology is real…it’s just being able to take advantage of it. 

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15 hours ago, nitram said:

My late FIL told me that a man knows he's been blessed in his life to have one truly good dog, one good driver, and a good woman, not necessarily in that order.

 

Good advice, but this is WRX...so got me 2 good dogs, few good drivers....can't figure out the WRX ratio for women yet. That gets pricey. 

 

OP confidence in the low cap is key, but I wager you are leaving 10y on the table with a 106 CHS regardless. I find the newer clubs retain ball speed for some misses better but that is player dependent. I have gamed the same shaft the past 5 years, only changing heads for the consistency (The Paradym I have now is measurably better for me then my Mavrik was a few years back for example). 

 

Low cap at my club still games his SLDR with a pretty good wear mark in the center. When he hits his window, sneaky long but his misses are far more punishing than they should be for example. We however don't suggest an upgrade, else he beats us up even more then he already does 😄 

 

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22 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

A good fit is a good fit. Doesnt matter how new or old the equipment is. If you are in the spin/launch window for your club and ball speed there isnt much more you can do on good strikes.

 

There is 100% a difference in off-center strikes in new vs old technology but that is all player dependent on your swing and your personal preferences and new doesnt automatically mean better as there's always trade-offs as you can see.

 

How old is "old technology?"  I'm rooted with my G400 Max, mostly for its forgiveness, and can't imagine a better club for me.  

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7 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

How old is "old technology?"  I'm rooted with my G400 Max, mostly for its forgiveness, and can't imagine a better club for me.  

If you see a guy with a g400 and upgraded shaft, do not bet that man!! 🤣

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/1/2024 at 8:24 PM, mogc60 said:

Oh 2005…I was 31, expected my first child, damn near won my state open and played or practiced 7 days a week. Fast forward and I turn 50 this year…play 9 holes twice a week, rarely practice and drive it straighter than I ever have and just as long as I was back then. The driver today is head and shoulders over drivers from 2005…shafts are better and the golf ball is insanely good. The technology is real…it’s just being able to take advantage of it. 

 

I"m older, graduated HS in 1979, played HS and Jr golf, and played DIII golf in college, won my conference one year.  I was a pretty long hitter back in those days, a decent overall driver.    From the mid 1980s until around 2000 I was at best a once or twice a week golfer, and only from May to October as I lived up North.   When my kids were older by the early 2000s I started to play and practice more and was playing just about as good I thought as when I was in college.  I thought man I am driving it just as long 270+ sometimes out to 300 with a good roll.  Then I started playing in some tournaments with college kids, they were airmailing me off the tee, it seemed unreal.  The technology even then was so much more forgiving compared to what it was when I was hitting persimmon heads with DG shafts.

 

Fast forward to today, I still hit it about the same, and it is pretty much all technology, the driver I had even 10 years ago is not near as forgiving as  just about any head is today.  There are times I hit decent drives when I would have almost missed the face entirely with my old persimmon head.....

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@Bushwhacker is 100% spot on.  Hitting balls into a screen is only part of a fitting.

Callaway Rogue 12 degree Driver , stiff shaft

3 Maltby Hy , stiff shaft

Maltby KE4 Max 4-GW w/ TT Score S Flex

Maltby MAX Milled Wedges 52 and 56 degrees w/ TT DG 120 S Flex 

Odyssey Stroke Lab Tuttle Putter

 

 

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