Shortest avg drive to still win

[Blaiser]

Had a fun little debate about the well worn-out "accuracy vs distance" and a topic came up that we couldn't find an answer for. Figure the WRX community knowledge will probably know.

 

The question is -- During the length of a tournament (in this case we said NCAA Div1 up to PGA Tour) what is the shortest average drive for a player that still won the tournament? I guess we also have to say it's a modern tournament, so let's go with year 2000 to now.

[ShortGolfer]

Kevin Kisner 2021 Wynham

303 yards for the week.  15 yards better than his season average at the time.  14 yards better than the entire season average of 289, which ranked 167 out of 196 players.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/101

 

 

This ought to be narrow things down considerably, with an average of just 289 yards.

You could compile of a list of players with worse averages using the PGA Tour stats, and then look up any wins.

Edited March 19 by ShortGolfer

[Shilgy]

26 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

Kevin Kisner 2021 Wynham

303 yards for the week.  15 yards better than his season average at the time.  14 yards better than the entire season average of 289, which ranked 167 out of 196 players.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/101

 

 

This ought to be narrow things down considerably, with an average of just 289 yards.

You could compile of a list of players with worse averages using the PGA Tour stats, and then look up any wins.

Pretty sure he was asking for the shortest average drive IN THAT TOURNAMENT. 

 

Might be in the Masters Zach Johnson won.  Rain soaked, no roll and Zach won.

[hollabachgt]

Paul Goydos won the Sony Open in 2007. That year he ranked 192 out of 196 in driving distance. 272.4.
 

Brian Gay won the Mayakoba in 2008. That year he ranked 196 out of 197 in driving distance with an average of 270.5.

 

[dwboston]

Fred Funk at the Players in 2005?

 

Was ranked 197th in driving distance in 2005, averaging 270 yards.

Edited March 19 by dwboston

[hollabachgt]

5 minutes ago, dwboston said:

Fred Funk at the Players in 2005?

 

Was ranked 197th in driving distance in 2005, averaging 270 yards.

Wow, the week of the players his average was 253.4 yards!

[dwboston]

Just now, hollabachgt said:

Wow, the week of the players his average was 253.4 yards!

 

That week was pretty bad weather-wise.  Really high winds and colder than normal.  He hit a ton of fairways.

[Hawkeye77]

Doubt you’ll find NCAA stats comprehensive enough for all events, especially going that far back. Same with other Tours. 
 

 

[Poor Mans Ty Webb]

I'm not sure this is winning any "most extreme" categories, but Brian Harman's win last year was the first thing that came to my mind in recent memory.  Per data golf, Harman gave up almost 6 yards of driving distance to the field average.  I don't have data on his drives for that tournament, but he was outside the top 150 (in driving distance) last year.  Really punctuates how incredibly solid he played to win that major (and continues to play this year!).

[Blaiser]

Yes, sorry. Shortest avg drive for the week of the win. Not what their avg for the year was.

[Denny100]

Doesnt really make sense as a question, as some courses will set up for bombing, in which case the short hitter will not win, OR they will set up tricky like Sony, Harbour Town etc where the short hitter COULD win but by virtue of everyone hitting shorter than normal.

 

Question doesnt work really.

[Denny100]

12 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Pretty sure he was asking for the shortest average drive IN THAT TOURNAMENT. 

 

Might be in the Masters Zach Johnson won.  Rain soaked, no roll and Zach won.

 

My memory of that Masters was a bit different.......i thought it was bone dry and running, but freezing cold?

 

Zach was laying up at all the par 5s, so there was no point hitting a big tee shot. Zach could hit a 300 yard drive if he wanted to.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Denny100 said:

 

My memory of that Masters was a bit different.......i thought it was bone dry and running, but freezing cold?

 

Zach was laying up at all the par 5s, so there was no point hitting a big tee shot. Zach could hit a 300 yard drive if he wanted to.

Why was he laying up then?  He averaged 280, 277 on all drives, off the tee that season.  He could not hit it 300 on demand with any sort of control in that cold windy (up to 33mph Saturday) weather.

 

You are correct on the lack of rain.  Apparently my memory put the clothing normally worn with rain and cold as both…and it was just the cold.

[Maine Golfer]

I beat my friend who out drives me most of the time lol 

[Shilgy]

12 hours ago, Poor Mans Ty Webb said:

I'm not sure this is winning any "most extreme" categories, but Brian Harman's win last year was the first thing that came to my mind in recent memory.  Per data golf, Harman gave up almost 6 yards of driving distance to the field average.  I don't have data on his drives for that tournament, but he was outside the top 150 (in driving distance) last year.  Really punctuates how incredibly solid he played to win that major (and continues to play this year!).

Most any recent win would be eliminated.  Harman did give up 6 yards to the field on average as he averaged 293.6 for he season vs the average of 299.9.  But 293.6:average is still miles beyond others mentioned from 15-20years ago like Johnson Gay and Funk.

[Denny100]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Why was he laying up then?  He averaged 280, 277 on all drives, off the tee that season.  He could not hit it 300 on demand with any sort of control in that cold windy (up to 33mph Saturday) weather.

 

You are correct on the lack of rain.  Apparently my memory put the clothing normally worn with rain and cold as both…and it was just the cold.

 

We are splitting hairs. Its why the original question is pointless as it doesnt take into account context.

 

Could Zach hit it 300 yards if he wanted? yes?

 

Could he hit it 300 yards and it be a worthwhile strategy to use in those conditions? no.

 

He strategised his best way of winning was to lay up on the par 5s. He was deliberately hitting it shorter than he could, as he felt from a strokes gained perspective it was more beneficial. Same way his 280 average for that season probably accounted for the fact he needed to be straight as a shorter hitter and so was willing to take bunkers out of play or play for layups etc.

 

The better question would be pound for pound who is the shortest hitter to win on the longest course, in a pound for pound scenario.

 

I can give fairly recent examples; Ted Potter winning at Pebble Beach. Brendan Todd in Mexico. Chris Kirk (short-ish.....average.....still long enough by far) at Honda and Kapalua. Snedeker at Torrey Pines. Nick Taylor at the Canadian and Scottsdale.

 

Short hitters win quite often.

 

But its WHERE they win.

 

If you put Brian Harman onto Torrey Pines and he shot -16 under to win the Farmers....In January....on a no roll heavy rough course....thats HIGHLY unexpected.

 

but in the Harbour Town where his distance isnt necessary, or difficult conditions at the open, its possible he can win as the lack of distance isnt hurting him.

 

You wouldnt win the Wells Fargo with a 270 average off the tee. But you MIGHT win the Sony.

Edited March 19 by Denny100

[Poor Mans Ty Webb]

11 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Most any recent win would be eliminated.  Harman did give up 6 yards to the field on average as he averaged 293.6 for he season vs the average of 299.9.  But 293.6:average is still miles beyond others mentioned from 15-20years ago like Johnson Gay and Funk.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you - Harman's win is probably not as much of an outlier as other examples, but it's definitely worthy of mention, especially since it was a major and he won it going away by 6 strokes.  It wasn't just a win; it was impressively dominant for such a short hitter relative to the field in a game that's increasingly dominated by the longest hitters.  In ZJ's Masters win, he was 7.8 yards behind the field average (per data golf) for the tournament.  That's definitely worse than Harman, but. not necessarily "miles beyond."

 

I will also say that average distance today is not 1:1 comparable to distance 15-20 years ago.  150th by today's standards is longer than 150th from 15 years ago and the bell curve on PGA driving distance might be tighter today than it used to be, but 150th in distance is still 150th in distance.  I'd argue that it's even more impressive now; as it's gotten easier for pros to absolutely wallop the ball off the tee with reckless abandon, it gets harder for players to be (and stay) relevant without it.  ZJ didn't have to beat nearly as many driving thoroughbreds in a limited field versus Harman, and his win will stand the test of time over the next 15-20 years, ball rollback or not; these type of wins will probably only get increasingly more rare.

[ShortGolfer]

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/101

 

The PGA Tour has the data.  You can look up the driving stats for just one Tournament. Or a date range.  Just a matter of programming the search engine to allow the specific search you want.

Edited March 19 by ShortGolfer

[Blaiser]

13 hours ago, Denny100 said:

Doesnt really make sense as a question, as some courses will set up for bombing, in which case the short hitter will not win, OR they will set up tricky like Sony, Harbour Town etc where the short hitter COULD win but by virtue of everyone hitting shorter than normal.

 

Question doesnt work really.

 

Lol, it's a question that literally has an objective answer. So not sure what you mean, unless you are trying to find some deep meaning behind it. Which there is not.

Edited March 19 by Blaiser

[Hawkeye77]

8 minutes ago, Blaiser said:

 

Lol, it's a question that literally has an objective answer. So not sure what you mean, unless you are trying to find some deep meaning behind it. Which there is not.

Then where is the NCAA data for all its events going back to 2000?

 

Looks like the PGA Tour data is available, so you should be able to find that answer.

 

KFT? You can go to the website and see if it has it and how far back it goes.

 

 

Edited March 19 by Hawkeye77

[Denny100]

7 minutes ago, Blaiser said:

 

Lol, it's a question that literally has an objective answer. So not sure what you mean, unless you are trying to find some deep meaning behind it. Which there is not.

 

Surely for your question to have any interest to it at all, youd want to know the shortest length RELATIVE to the rest of the course, or else its a boring question.

[Titleist99]

On 3/18/2024 at 9:15 PM, hollabachgt said:

Wow, the week of the players his average was 253.4 yards!

You don't need to hit the ball 325 yards off the tee to win on todays PGAT.

[ShortGolfer]

https://www.pgatour.com/korn-ferry-tour/stats/off-tee

Appears to be no data for distance off the tee for the KFT.

[golferdude54]

There has to be context in Brian Harman's Open win and no one has given it yet, the course was a links course with dogleg cutoffs and fairway pot bunkers and gorse/heath. Open courses do not forgive off-line drives, no matter how far they go. A 400 yard tee shot is no good if the second shot is spent pitching sideways out of pot bunkers.

[golferdude54]

12 hours ago, Denny100 said:

If you put Brian Harman onto Torrey Pines and he shot -16 under to win the Farmers....In January....on a no roll heavy rough course....thats HIGHLY unexpected.

 

Greg Chalmers owns the course record at Torrey Pines South course with a 63 btw. And that guy was never top 150 in distance.

[iBanesto]

How about Brendon Todd?

[Blaiser]

16 hours ago, Denny100 said:

 

Surely for your question to have any interest to it at all, youd want to know the shortest length RELATIVE to the rest of the course, or else its a boring question.

 

Might want to stay off the internet for a while if benign questions on a forum get you upset. Hope your day gets better.

[st1800e]

Close….Corey Pavin 1995 US open. 257, 43 yards behind the leader, Vijay.   Only 6 players shorter.  
 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/101

[st1800e]

We have a winner.   Corey Pavin 2006 USBank championship.  
Last in driving distance.  263 yds, 73 yards behind Brett Wetterich.  
 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/101

 

Pavin also set the record there for the lowest 9 hole score - 26.  

 

[tatertot]

18 hours ago, Denny100 said:

 

Surely for your question to have any interest to it at all, youd want to know the shortest length RELATIVE to the rest of the course, or else its a boring question.

Dude ... If you don't like the question (which is straightforward), move on.