AMG: Side Bend Like A Major Champ - PROs vs AMs

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Monte, would you say that these guys who have a ton of side bend get their power/speed from doing so or is it just a by product?...

 

...I noticed that most guys who have a lot of side bend tend to be long hitters.  Sargent, Min Woo, Niemann, etc. 

A couple of questions there.  Where do power and speed in the golf swing come from?  (I know they're not the same.)

 

Are they directly correlated to degree of hip opening at impact for the same golfer?  Assuming the golfer can achieve that degree of hip angle without losing power?  If so, and we're told that hip angle should equal side bend angle, that might explain it.  Everyone wants more power, because the game is a lot easier the closer to the hole you are.

[PracticeSwinger]

10 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Great, "Too long; didn't watch," synopsis of the video. 

 

If your target-side pelvis moves up and back on the downswing, a lot of side bend can occur without requiring all of it from the spine.  Much easier to do, and we don't need that much anyway at impact and even P8.

 

Question for everyone:  Since we should stay in left tilt (left shoulder lower than right) at least until P6---though the amount of left tilt is going to decrease from P5 on---and this pelvis move aids right side bend, does this mean that pushing back/up/away from target side with lead leg and pelvis shouldn't happen until just before impact?

Uneducated guess here, not an instructor... but the answer is mainly yes, but because the downsing is 0.2 seconds you need to have that intent rather quickly from the top (and already be setup, lead side pressure) for it to happen before impact

Edited March 25 by PracticeSwinger
typo

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

11 minutes ago, PracticeSwinger said:

Uneducated guess here, not an instructor... but the answer is mainly yes, but because the downsing is 0.2 seconds you need to have that intent rather quickly from the top (and already be setup, lead side pressure) for it to happen before impact

Yep.  The Chasing Scratch guys went to see Dr. Greg Rose at TPI, in this video:

 

There, at 3:45, Rose tells them something like, 'The kinematic sequence goes like this at the top of the backswing.  First they go right to left, then they rock & roll, then they twist, and finally they jump.'  With Rose defining each of those four components a bit before.

 

I try it on the downswing, and I look & feel like Daffy Duck learning the quarterstaff...

[KD1]

20 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Question for everyone:  Since we should stay in left tilt (left shoulder lower than right) at least until P6---though the amount of left tilt is going to decrease from P5 on---and this pelvis move aids right side bend, does this mean that pushing back/up/away from target side with lead leg and pelvis shouldn't happen until just before impact?  As a part of Monte's "tabletop" drill say?

 

I would think no, it's much earlier. Maybe this will help

 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

7 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

I would think no, it's much earlier. Maybe this will help

 

Oh, I've seen the video.  And getting back onto my left side does happen much earlier than P6.  Before P4, really.

 

I think, especially after re-watching that part of the Dr. Rose segment, I'm meaning the "twist" and "jump" portions of his sequence, not the right to left and rock & roll.

 

Aside, to get videos to only embed, just insert the hyperlink without filling out the second line for link text?

 

 

Edited March 25 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[PracticeSwinger]

23 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Yep.  The Chasing Scratch guys went to see Dr. Greg Rose at TPI, in this video:

 

There, at 3:45, Rose tells them something like, 'The kinematic sequence goes like this at the top of the backswing.  First they go right to left, then they rock & roll, then they twist, and finally they jump.'  With Rose defining each of those four components a bit before.

 

I try it on the downswing, and I look & feel like Daffy Duck learning the quarterstaff...

Yes... just that, as seen in the AMG video, the 'rock and roll' part starting point has a much higher LSB value and represents that the motion goes toward RSB. The 'twist' and 'jump' parts are those that results in the open and tilted pelvis that makes it apears these is more RSB than there is in DTL and from behind 2D views

[Llortamaisey]

https://pages.athleticmotiongolf.com/free-side-bend-ty
 

Also, just went to the “Move U” YouTube page that AMG used as an example in their video. I highly suggest checking out their YouTube shorts. Hopefully AMG will use more more of their examples in future videos.  

[MK7Golf21]

14 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I can sum up the video in one sentence.  Stay in left tilt (righty) as long as you can and hit the ball.

 

i think that was someone who doesn’t speak English as their first language.

 

Good video, need more of this in golf.

 

Regarding left tilt they did cover not left tilting too much in backswing as well, some good points they had. Suppose excess left tilt is just as bad as too much right tilt but as a righty you would be performing the excess right tilt with much more force on downswing. I think I relate the thought/feel of staying closed with upper body on downswing vs. saying to stay in left tilt as long as you can during downswing. The latter possibly causing some to go into excess left tilt, I've seen some who increase the left tilt (or it appears that way in 2-d at least with the left shoulder getting steeper and right shoulder higher in transition), I doubt that is heathy either. 

[third-times-a-charm]

I just realized AMG is right down the street from me after watching all these videos you guys post.

 

...but lol @ $200-$500 per hour they might as well be in Russia.

 

Maybe they do a black friday one day.

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Monte, would you say that these guys who have a ton of side bend get their power/speed from doing so or is it just a by product?  I used to have a ton of side bend as well when I was younger but that was when my ss was 122 on a stock swing.  Can't get into that position anymore because of age and a bad back so my speed has dropped a bit.  I noticed that most guys who have a lot of side bend tend to be long hitters.  Sargent, Min Woo, Niemann, etc. 

IMO, you don’t have to side bend that much to max out your speed.  I never did even when I was young.  People who can create speed can do it any way.  If someone shows excess side bend helps you get 2/3 more mph, I’d buy that but not 5-10.  Then the question begs is that 2/3 worth trashing your back by 30?

 

It’s certainly not worth it for the average golfer and that’s the real discussion.

 

I said this before or in another thread.  I have a HS junior with multiple D1 offers who is 6-5.  When he was a freshman he was 6-2 and his pro at the time was telling him to use side bend to flatten the shaft.  His dad called me and asked what I thought.  I said, IMO, bad idea.  He came to me and the only thing we’ve worked on for the last 18 months is staying in left tilt longer.  He’s an elite athlete being all county in basketball as well.  He reverted back some when he took off golf for basketball season.  He didn’t lose any speed and now he’s able to flight PW at 70 feet and 135 yards versus 155 at 150 feet.  
 

This is a before and after from freshman year to now and a driver that was 123 mph.

[Duffer Mark]

Basically, they are giving a drill to preset the spin. I've seen similar on Tyler's site and he has the golfer moving through impact hitting the ball in the preset position.

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, swh0507 said:

I think context would be important here. If the instructor was literally trying get you to be in the same position as Neiman, than yes there is a problem. If you needed to FEEL like Nieman to get into the needed side bend, that is a different story. 

 

I used to roll the club on the backswing. Instructor asked me to do a Jim Furyk swing impression. I felt like I was I had this crazy looping backswing like Furyk. Go to the video and it is on plane. 

I don’t disagree, but since there are many cases of people saying Niemann is the model, that context is no bueno.

[getitdaily]

16 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

I just realized AMG is right down the street from me after watching all these videos you guys post.

 

...but lol @ $200-$500 per hour they might as well be in Russia.

 

Maybe they do a black friday one day.

I went in October or November or last year. Sean and Mike aren't there regularly. I booked a lesson with the guy who's there regularly and called to make sure my lesson would include the force plates. Sean called me back and ok'd the force plate use. Usually only Sean and Mike do the force plate stuff. But I was able to get what I needed...a pressure and force trace that helped me understand just how hard you have to push into the ground to get a bunch of speed. 

 

It's worth it to go once if they'll do the force plates for the $200 lesson charge. Assuming you want to venture down that road...Any lesson with Sean or Mike will be $500...

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

25 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

I just realized AMG is right down the street from me after watching all these videos you guys post.

 

...but lol @ $200-$500 per hour they might as well be in Russia.

 

Maybe they do a black friday one day.

Wow, I had thought they were WAY more expensive.  Like, put a comma in the price per hour expensive.  Even Golftec, a year or two(?) ago, came out to something a hair over $110/hr.

 

A Professional's time is expensive.  So are licensing fees.  (They didn't invent GEARS, right?)

 

Sorry.  It's not an inexpensive hobby, is it?

 

 

[third-times-a-charm]

1 minute ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Wow, I had thought they were WAY more expensive.  Like, put a comma in the price per hour expensive.  Even Golftec, a year or two(?) ago, came out to something a hair over $110/hr.

 

A Professional's time is expensive.  So are licensing fees.  (They didn't invent GEARS, right?)

 

Sorry.  It's not an inexpensive hobby, is it?

 

 

We pick and choose.

 

Your 'standard golf pro lesson' is generally between $80-120 in the Orlando area and I'm sure many other areas. That was my comparison along with the other factors of golf lessons.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

We pick and choose.

 

Your 'standard golf pro lesson' is generally between $80-120 in the Orlando area and I'm sure many other areas. That was my comparison along with the other factors of golf lessons.

Price doesn’t always equate with excellence, but let me ask you this.

 

Would you rather go to a doctor that costs $80 that says your knee has a boo boo, rest it, ice it, take some aspirin and come back if it still hurts?

 

……or pay more and get an X-ray, an MRI and hear from a guy who has done multiple surgeries on elite athletes?

 

My experience is for $80-120 you get hold lag, swing to right field, slow your tempo down and here’s a frame of tiger, copy this.

 

People charge what the market will pay and I’m nit saying every $80-$120 guy is like that, but…..

[third-times-a-charm]

5 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Price doesn’t always equate with excellence, but let me ask you this.

 

Would you rather go to a doctor that costs $80 that says your knee has a boo boo, rest it, ice it, take some aspirin and come back if it still hurts?

 

……or pay more and get an X-ray, an MRI and hear from a guy who has done multiple surgeries on elite athletes?

 

My experience is for $80-120 you get hold lag, swing to right field, slow your tempo down and here’s a frame of tiger, copy this.

 

People charge what the market will pay and I’m nit saying every $80-$120 guy is like that, but…..

Well, golf isnt life or death (sometimes) but yes you are correct in that there are always levels of 'care'. My commentary was on the sticker shock after looking at their website because I had until now never seen anything over $100/hr. I would 100% love to do their things, but they are outside of what I personally feel I need to pay in this hobby for what my goals are.

 

For now, I am going to 'rub some dirt on it' (free).

Edited March 25 by third-times-a-charm

[dcmidnight]

I subscribe to AMGs YouTube channel and really enjoy their stuff but as a normal Joe, I'll just say - this video was really freaking tough to get through. I consider myself fairly learned on the golf swing and I'm on WRX every day but damn, I feel like I need the cliff notes/shorts version. Not something I will be trying to get through again.

 

As far as price goes, $200-500 seems more than reasonable. In Northern VA you can pay (and over the years I've paid) anywhere from $40 or so for a lesson at the local range up to $300 for someone who I think is still rated at the top of the GD instructors list. Whatever you think of those rankings, I dont really care, I say that just to say that IMO that is not at all unreasonable.

 

 

Edited March 25 by dcmidnight

[nepatriotsfan]

32 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

IMO, you don’t have to side bend that much to max out your speed.  I never did even when I was young.  People who can create speed can do it any way.  If someone shows excess side bend helps you get 2/3 more mph, I’d buy that but not 5-10.  Then the question begs is that 2/3 worth trashing your back by 30?

 

It’s certainly not worth it for the average golfer and that’s the real discussion.

 

I said this before or in another thread.  I have a HS junior with multiple D1 offers who is 6-5.  When he was a freshman he was 6-2 and his pro at the time was telling him to use side bend to flatten the shaft.  His dad called me and asked what I thought.  I said, IMO, bad idea.  He came to me and the only thing we’ve worked on for the last 18 months is staying in left tilt longer.  He’s an elite athlete being all county in basketball as well.  He reverted back some when he took off golf for basketball season.  He didn’t lose any speed and now he’s able to flight PW at 70 feet and 135 yards versus 155 at 150 feet.  
 

This is a before and after from freshman year to now and a driver that was 123 mph.

Hi Monte,

Thank you for helping explain tilts in the swing. Do any of the videos you sell on your website go into detail about how to stay in left tilt and maybe some drills? I like the AMG videos but for me personally they can be a little hard to understand. Thanks.

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Good video, need more of this in golf.

 

Regarding left tilt they did cover not left tilting too much in backswing as well, some good points they had. Suppose excess left tilt is just as bad as too much right tilt but as a righty you would be performing the excess right tilt with much more force on downswing. I think I relate the thought/feel of staying closed with upper body on downswing vs. saying to stay in left tilt as long as you can during downswing. The latter possibly causing some to go into excess left tilt, I've seen some who increase the left tilt (or it appears that way in 2-d at least with the left shoulder getting steeper and right shoulder higher in transition), I doubt that is heathy either. 

 

Just playing around with it after I made this comment, I think the idea of staying in left tilt helps as well vs. just staying closed too but just to be mindful not to increase left tilt. I've just heard it so much over the years and see guys tilting their shoulders leftward more in transition.

[Duffer Mark]

47 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

But I was able to get what I needed...a pressure and force trace that helped me understand just how hard you have to push into the ground to get a bunch of speed. 

 

Was the result of how hard you had to push into the ground surprising? How much different was it than you thought/tried prior to using the plates? 

[me05501]

The AMG video is good. It's more proof that just because we think we can see and measure a specific motion doesn't mean we should consciously try to control that motion. 

 

Some moves just happen as the natural result of other moves done correctly. At some level you have to trust your body and let it work. 

 

For example, we talk about low point control which is mostly the result of having a proper setup and good sequencing. A good teacher will see where your low point is and recommend adjustments to improve it, but they'll treat the low point as a symptom rather than the whole problem. 

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, me05501 said:

The AMG video is good. It's more proof that just because we think we can see and measure a specific motion doesn't mean we should consciously try to control that motion. 

 

Some moves just happen as the natural result of other moves done correctly. At some level you have to trust your body and let it work. 

 

For example, we talk about low point control which is mostly the result of having a proper setup and good sequencing. A good teacher will see where your low point is and recommend adjustments to improve it, but they'll treat the low point as a symptom rather than the whole problem. 

It’s funny you say that.  I made a video that I haven’t posted on Instagram on exactly what you’re saying.

 

The towel behind the ball drill for hitting it fat.  If your low point issue is late shift, it might help you.  If it’s yank and tilt, it will make you worse…..and a lot.

 

Here’s what 3D has shown us.  2D positions are an amalgamation of multiple movements.  Not zeroing out one.  Lag is not the result of holding the angle, it’s the result of many movements working together.  Getting the hips more open is not just about opening the hips more.  Etc.

[getitdaily]

33 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

 

Was the result of how hard you had to push into the ground surprising? How much different was it than you thought/tried prior to using the plates? 

It was really surprising. I thought I was pushing fairly hard. But I was spiking at about 120% (of body weight pressure). He said to push harder and to add some trail foot push in the backswing. I think I got to about 150% a few times. Got the swing sequence down a couple of those and my ballspeed jumped big time...like 5-6 mph with a 7i. 

 

It helped me with driver speed training. 

[GungHoGolf]

3 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Aside, to get videos to only embed, just insert the hyperlink without filling out the second line for link text?

Don’t use the URL + text insertion tool. Just paste the YouTube video url into the body of your post.

[Arthur_Vandelay]

29 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

It was really surprising. I thought I was pushing fairly hard. But I was spiking at about 120% (of body weight pressure). He said to push harder and to add some trail foot push in the backswing. I think I got to about 150% a few times. Got the swing sequence down a couple of those and my ballspeed jumped big time...like 5-6 mph with a 7i. 

 

It helped me with driver speed training. 

Interesting.  I've been trying to incorporate this by pushing off my lead leg hard to get the pelvis going back and up and the club head releasing down and out, but it's still a few mph slower than my usual swing feels when I'm speed training w driver.  Possibly because in focusing on the new move I have to cut back a little bit on the big speed driver for me which is stretching and unloading across the core and lead lat.

Edited March 25 by Arthur_Vandelay

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

If it’s yank and tilt....

I'm pretty sure the Double Eagle Club across from Augusta National offers that after 11pm. 

[phizzy30]

5 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

A couple of questions there.  Where do power and speed in the golf swing come from?  (I know they're not the same.)

 

Are they directly correlated to degree of hip opening at impact for the same golfer?  Assuming the golfer can achieve that degree of hip angle without losing power?  If so, and we're told that hip angle should equal side bend angle, that might explain it.  Everyone wants more power, because the game is a lot easier the closer to the hole you are.

I used to think that power and speed mainly came from the hips as in the faster you open up the hips and rotate, the more speed you can generate.  After talking to Monte, my perception has changed a bit.  It's a little bit of everything.  Proper sequencing, arms, hips and to some degree wrists as well.  A client of mine that plays on the PGA Tour Canada has always had speed but we've worked hard to get his mobility and strength up mainly in order for him to more efficiently deliver that speed in his swing.  The speed training from adding explosive movements also has helped.  He went from 178 to 185-190 ball speed now.  These high school kids I train also have seen their ball speeds jump up as well.  I give them the tools in order to access more speed, but I leave the swing instruction part to the teaching pros. 

Edited March 25 by phizzy30

[GolfTurkey]

9 hours ago, swh0507 said:

I think context would be important here. If the instructor was literally trying get you to be in the same position as Neiman, than yes there is a problem. If you needed to FEEL like Nieman to get into the needed side bend, that is a different story. 

 

I used to roll the club on the backswing. Instructor asked me to do a Jim Furyk swing impression. I felt like I was I had this crazy looping backswing like Furyk. Go to the video and it is on plane. 

 

My worst habit in my swing is early right tilt in transition which then switches off my rotation and I get stuck under plane and have more side bend at impact than rotation.

 

For an instructor to tell me to think Niemann is terrible on multiple levels.

[CasualLie]

Good video, not too hard to get through, but I'm just looking at it for "oh, that's interesting" value, not at all something I can relate to my swing.  Maybe there is a connection, but I really don't want to know; I only want to know what my coach tells me to tweak with a just enough of the "why" to convince me he's a got a sensible plan.

 

I never even heard of the cheerleader move, I'm not even sure if I can do it statically, nevermind doing it at full swing speed.  Just as well, I'll forget about that concept faster than I heard of it.  The advice of swing in the box is all you need to know.

 

It's crazy what's being measured these days, but worse it's sad how it's being abused.  I count myself lucky to never have  run into an instructor telling me to swing like Niemann.  

 

The part that kills me is the example of the student AMG is referring to.  You play at scratch and then spend nearly two years chasing a fake spine number you read on the internet?!  Huh?  On your way to double digit handicap it never occurs to the guy to just go back to what he was doing?!  When will be people realize the more you chase these numbers the less you are playing golf?