70% of speed from hands? Where does this idea come from?

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:32 AM, Soloman1 said:

...nobody seems to care much about data. it’s too much work to read and their eyes roll back into their skulls. people prefer anecdotes, stories, myths, fiction and feelings by individual players and influencers.

 

the good news is that you can start by using the link below. that bad news is it will require the ability and motivation to read and not just watch a 30 second instagram.

 

https://scholar.google.com

 

 

Who would you recommend starting with on an author search?  Sasho seems obvious, as does Dr. Greg Rose of TPI, but who else?  Is there a really good review paper to begin with?

[iacas]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:10 AM, Llortamaisey said:

I’m sure someone came up with the theory long ago, and was in the minority of conventional swing theory, but it wasn’t until the advent of 3D swing mapping systems like Gears and others where it could actually be proven. Kind of like the new ball flight laws were thought to be completely wrong until finally proven by the advent of launch monitors. I’m old enough to remember the days where you were a heretic if you didn’t think that the club face had nothing to do with start line. Boy was that silly. 

 

Launch monitors didn't "prove" the ball flight laws - they used the ball flight laws to build their products.

 

High speed video could be said to have "proven" the ball flight laws. Measurements proved it. Launch monitors use those measurements to build algorithms to calculate some things.

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

13 hours ago, Zeph said:

They may not be square in front of the chest at impact, but certainly more in front than at the top of the backswing. The elbow is still a bit bent, but less than at the top. The point is that relative to the chest, the hands have moved from outside the back shoulder to closer to the middle of the chest. They can't do that unless you swing the arms down.

 

Edit: I saw your clairification about "behind", and I think we agree. The arms have not reached the sternum, but are closer than at the top. That's what I meant. That the arms have moved closer to the sternum

 

Looks like his hands are directly in front of the center of his chest at impact just like almost every other pro.

 

No need to hedge it.
 

There could be some 2D illusion stuff to it but if your hands don’t look like they are directly in front of the center of your chest at impact from this angle then your hands are behind where they should be. 

Edited May 25 by TrueBlue4Lyfe

[ThinkingPlus]

16 minutes ago, Jugs said:

 

I have.  Are you saying a ground up sequence is sound advice because it happens anyway whether top-down, or bottom-up?   Just curious, and excuse me if I found the post somewhat rambling during my early morning fog. 

He's saying that it is almost impossible not to sequence from the ground up and having someone focus on that aspect is thus somewhat pointless.

[TheDeanAbides]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

He's saying that it is almost impossible not to sequence from the ground up and having someone focus on that aspect is thus somewhat pointless.

Yep, it’s like saying “stand on the ground to swing well”.  

[MonteScheinblum]

54 minutes ago, Jugs said:

 

I have.  Are you saying a ground up sequence is sound advice because it happens anyway whether top-down, or bottom-up?   Just curious, and excuse me if I found the post somewhat rambling during my early morning fog. 

Thinly veiled insults not the best way to get information and learn something.

[Chunkitgood]

Thanks all for the replies.  I have been taken to task for posting things then not replying to responses.  This is partly due to the fact that for some strange reason I get preoccupied with real life, but mostly that my desire to engage in internet disputations within the site’s strictures as to politeness and civility is small, which is to say I have a hard time not being what some may call snarky, smug, snide, etc. so that I generally try to refrain from it altogether.  (For example, I was initially inclined to reply to Mr.  Scheinblum that the statement that “water is wet” is neither redundant nor meaningless…but as you can see I reined myself in.)  A possible excess in politeness has perhaps led me to seem rude by not replying, and the appearance of trolling.  And possibly the reality of it, who knows.  Anyway, apologies all around.

 

So to try to reply without being any if the above unpleasant things, I will say I have read quite a bit of the output of the various technical experts on the swing, and they are actually fairly consistent in their general outlines, going back to

Cochran and his colleagues, and none of it is consistent with the idea that the hands produce 70 of the speed in any non-trivial sense.  Mr. Scheinblum’s video posted above sheds no light on the subject for obvious reasons, and better serves as a demonstration as to why most people cannot swing over 90mph, and his kind reply to this post rather highlights the problems in golf instruction created by semantic issues and lack of clarity.  Or bad reading compression, if you will.

 

To say the hands produce 70% of speed implies someone somewhere has measured some things and done some math to produce such a statement.

[MonteScheinblum]

40 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

He's saying that it is almost impossible not to sequence from the ground up and having someone focus on that aspect is thus somewhat pointless.

I used to say almost impossible.  During a rather heated discussion on Facebook, one expert in biomechanics and one in physics sent me PM’s and both essentially  said the same thing.

 

Monte, you’re actually wrong when you say it’s almost impossible.  It is in fact impossible.

Edited May 25 by MonteScheinblum

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

I think trying to move the hands fast through impact can cause the pivot to stall, perhaps temporarily, for the sake of sweeping the hands.  This in turn reduces good effective shaft lean at impact unless you shove your hands even further forward which is even worse.

 

i do think the hands need to be moved DOWN fast, as in Pete cowen’s spin it down thing.  they need to “keep up” with the shoulder turn also.  But if too much focus is put on moving the hands fast towards the target, then in my experience it leads to the pelvis and shoulder pivot  stalling out especially right through impact zone and some hand sweeping to occur even if just a little, at the expense of pivot.  The stalled pivot means less proper shaft lean if nothing else.

 

Not to say they won’t be moving fast, but it’s a question of muscle activations.  If activating muscles to move the hands fast, then the pivot will stall to facilitate it.  I think in order to “keep up” is more about some functional tension in the sweeping dimension?

 

Also in my opinion, attempting to accelerate or drag the hands through impact will destroy clubhead release and then the tendency will be to release earlier and earlier to make up for the fast hands dragging the grip through.  All with lost speed and poor dynamic loft consistency.  
 

I am painfully working through some of these things right now and actually slowing down my hands through impact is one of the things I have to do, facilitating both a later and snappier release as well as hopefully less of a stalled out pivot.  Very hard habit to break though as my pivot-pause-micro-hand-sweep-past-trail-leg is very grooved in.  But mentally I think what got me there was too much thinking about trying to accelerate the hands through impact.  Just my two cents

You don’t want the hands fast through impact.  First move of the downswing.  You want to reach max speed asap.

Edited May 25 by MonteScheinblum

[GoGoErky]

34 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

Mr. Scheinblum’s video posted above sheds no light on the subject for obvious reasons, and better serves as a demonstration as to why most people cannot swing over 90mph, and his kind reply to this post rather highlights the problems in golf instruction created by semantic issues and lack of clarity.  Or bad reading compression, if you will.

And yet he continually gets people over 90 and over 100 even those who swing under 90 when they start with him.

 

Despite your feelings Monte has actual proven results including from members here. 

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

And yet he continually gets people over 90 and over 100 even those who swing under 90 when they start with him.

 

Despite your feelings Monte has actual proven results including from members here. 

Aren’t you aware that in the internet age, experience and results actually reduce credibility in the face of I just know better.

 

If it makes people feel better to take shots at me from the cheap seats behind their anonymity, that’s fine.  A smart person tries to learn from people with my experience hitting a golf ball and teaching whether they initially agree with what I said or not.

 

Usually I brave the ridiculous, but sometimes Im exhausted by the stupidity and vileness.  I ate some bad food yesterday and have been losing water on both ends since 5 pm last night.  Not in the mood for the likes of chunkitbad (Stolen from Manzella).

 

The ignore feature fails when someone else replies.  Damn!!!!!!

 

 

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Aren’t you aware that in the internet age, experience and results actually reduce credibility in the face of I just know better.

 

If it makes people feel better to take shots at me from the cheap seats behind their anonymity, that’s fine.  A smart person tries to learn from people with my experience hitting a golf ball and teaching whether they initially agree with what I said or not.

 

Usually I brave the ridiculous, but sometimes Im exhausted by the stupidity and vileness.  I ate some bad food yesterday and have been losing water on both ends since 5 pm last night.  Not in the mood for the likes of chunkitbad (Stolen from Manzella).

 

The ignore feature fails when someone else replies.  Damn!!!!!!

 

 

Not a fan of that part of the ignore feature. 
 

 

[nikos74]

21 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Starting the downswing with the arms is IMPOSSIBLE unless you’re in outer space or you’re suspended in mid air.  I’m sorry to say anyone who says the swing should start from the ground up is trying to act like they know what they’re talking about, but it’s a meaningless and redundant statement.  
 

It’s like saying water is wet.

Impossible to do correctly.

 

But very possible as a swing fault.  They come "over the top" on the downswing like chopping on wood.  On the backswing they yank the club in with their hands and arms aka "inside takeaway" which technically is another swing fault.

 

The phrase simply reinforces proper sequencing from the feet to the hands.

[Soloman1]

 

the hands contributing 70% of speed is not about where the linear speed of the hands is maximum.

 

it is about the work (the physics term work) contributed by the hands approaching impact.

 

it is information documenting what happens - a result, not a cause.

 

it is irrelevant to teaching and learning an efficient swing.

 

that is about as succinct as i can make it.

[MonteScheinblum]

54 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Impossible to do correctly.

 

But very possible as a swing fault.  They come "over the top" on the downswing like chopping on wood.  On the backswing they yank the club in with their hands and arms aka "inside takeaway" which technically is another swing fault.

 

The phrase simply reinforces proper sequencing from the feet to the hands.

Over the top is almost always the hands accelerating late.  
 

I understand and agree with what you’re saying, but when the overwhelming majority of people on my lesson tee sequence the arms/hands late, they need to hear ground up and lead with the lower body is a redundant misnomer.

Edited May 25 by MonteScheinblum

[nikos74]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Over the top is almost always the hands accelerating late.  
 

I understand and agree with what you’re saying, but when the overwhelming majority of people on my lesson tee sequence the arms/hands late, they need to hear ground up and lead with the lower body is a redundant misnomer.

You are probably referencing leadbetter's alternative swing, which is significantly different from a traditional swing.  To me it doesn't mean a closed clubface at impact, rather having a steep ds because no shallowing took place in the transition and the arms took over with a late pivot to the lead side.

Edited May 26 by nikos74

[gripandrip]

Always thought this video was interesting.

 

 

[Rbsiedsc]

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You don’t want the hands fast through impact.  First move of the downswing.  You want to reach max speed asap.

Is the best thing to do then is to tell yourself as a swing thought to start me down before you get to the top? I have a Dewiz and am trying to get my arms starting fast right away. It’s hard but can on occasion do it. 

Edited May 26 by Rbsiedsc

[MonteScheinblum]

16 minutes ago, Rbsiedsc said:

Is the best thing to do then is to tell yourself as a swing thought to start me down before you get to the top? I have a Dewiz and am trying to get my arms starting fast right away. It’s hard but can on occasion do it. 

Individual feels…are well….individual.  I have no bias against any drill or feel as long as it produces.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

You are probably referencing leadbetter's alternative swing, which is significantly different from a traditional swing.  To me it doesn't mean a closed clubface at impact, rather having a steep ds because no shallowing took place in the transition and the arms took over with a late pivot to the lead side.

Not regarding that even a little.  Most over the tops happen when the shoulders spin and the arms are late coming down.  It’s been measured.

 

Again, these things have all been measured in the last 5-10 years.  The only debate should be how to get it done more efficiently.

 

Discussions across the net and across the world are not helpful to most golfers because the premisses are false.

 

No one holds lag.

Elite golfers and long hitters accelerate their arms/hands earlier and faster than most golfers.

Everyone leads with the lower body…everyone.

The hips don’t produce much club head speed.

Only an extreme minority of elite golfers have slow smooth tempo and most a,s are slower than those guys.

You don’t shift to the  right in the backswing and the left in the downswing.

No one good drops it in the slot and swings to right field, but lots of 5-12 caps with a two way miss do.

 

I could go on.  These things have been measured and it’s just not what good and elite players do.

 

Edited May 26 by MonteScheinblum

[Nels55]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I used to say almost impossible.  During a rather heated discussion on Facebook, one expert in biomechanics and one in physics sent me PM’s and both essentially  said the same thing.

 

Monte, you’re actually wrong when you say it’s almost impossible.  It is in fact impossible.

But, what if both feet are planted firmly in the air?

[Forged4ever]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Bad reading comprehension.  Read the whole post again.

Priceless😂😂😂‼️

 

I just spit my tea through my friggin nose😂😂

 

I'm sitting here watching TV with Maddie and she saw me crack up and I laughed so hard that I blew it through my nose.

 

I can count on less than one hand the number of times that she's said "WTF," though this was possibly the fifth😂😂

 

I lovvvvvvve this place🤗

 

Have a Great Weekend Brotha👊

RP

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, Nels55 said:

But, what if both feet are planted firmly in the air?

I said that in another part of the thread…..yes

[Forged4ever]

I am always reminded of one of the single greatest golf quotes EVER whenever I drop into this section. 

 

Sam dropped this one on the other Teaching Pros at their annual Golf Digest Teaching Pro "Summit," where they piled 6-8 of the biggest egos in the game into one room for a day or two of kibitzing. The only GD Teacher that Sam had any use for was Toski, as he was the only Pro that actually Played the game for a living and applied what he taught "under the gun." 

 

In actuality, Sam was a terrible Teacher, nothin even remotely close to Pete, and in my eyes, he was the poster child of the saying, "the feel ain't real," especially that stupid *ss "birdie grip" pearl, lolol. He even thought that it was stupid though said that after it was published in every golf magazine on earth and repeated by only God knows how many Teachers to this very day, what was he gonna do, go back on it and tell em that it was bull💩, 😂😂?!?!?

 

That said, he was spot on solid gold on this quote...

 

"Fellas, you're talking trigonometry when all it is is simple arithmetic"

 

It's also timeless!!

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️

RP

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26 by Forged4ever

[Dewdman42]

4 hours ago, Jugs said:

 

Clubhead speed comes through the hands via the feet activating bigger muscles along the back, thighs, calves, etc.    The hands will slow down for those larger muscles.   The coordination between the two is important so the hands do not outrun the pivot's power. 

How do the hands slow down for the larger muscles?  What biomechanical operation causes that to happen?

 

In order for your hands to sweep forward faster than the pivot, the shoulders have to at least momentarily stop pivoting so that the muscles in your body have something to push against for swinging the hands forward.  That’s why your shoulders have to stop or slow down for the hands to be accelerated by any muscle driven effort.  Ultimately that is how ground reaction force is transferred to your hands.  It’s the same reason your hands need to stop or slow down for the club head to be accelerated into a release.

 

 But that is not what we want, we want the hands to slow down so that club head will accelerate.  And also I personally don’t want my pivot to stall.  If you’re not accelerating the hands then in theory they are at worst being swung at whatever rate the shoulders are turning, bigger radius so faster sure but with zero additional acceleration being added to the hands, then the pivot should not stall.  
 

however it’s unclear to me what is the proper way to slow down the hands other then the club head releasing would slow them down for a similar reason as speeding up the hands slows down  the pivot.  The energy is transferred to the club head, thus slowing the hands 

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

however it’s unclear to me what is the proper way to slow down the hands other then the club head releasing would slow them down for a similar reason as speeding up the hands slows down  the pivot.  The energy is transferred to the club head, thus slowing the hands 

 

You answered your own question. No need to think about slowing down the hands, that’s just the transfer of momentum to the clubhead.

[Zeph]

The problem with "speed up arms" or "slow down arms" is that every swing is different and feel is not real. One player may need to speed up the arms, and the next slow them down, or at least feel that they do. You can't generalize and say "don't do this" or "do this", each case is unique. We can use data from professional players as a goalpost of sorts for what you want to achieve, but how to get there has to be broken down to the individual swing.

 

If you had to think about slowing down the hands to release the clubhead, you'd have to rely on timings during the fastest part of the golf swing. With the proper sequencing and swing, it happens by itself.

[nikos74]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Not regarding that even a little.  Most over the tops happen when the shoulders spin and the arms are late coming down.  It’s been measured.

 

Again, these things have all been measured in the last 5-10 years.  The only debate should be how to get it done more efficiently.

 

Discussions across the net and across the world are not helpful to most golfers because the premisses are false.

 

No one holds lag.

Elite golfers and long hitters accelerate their arms/hands earlier and faster than most golfers.

Everyone leads with the lower body…everyone.

The hips don’t produce much club head speed.

Only an extreme minority of elite golfers have slow smooth tempo and most a,s are slower than those guys.

You don’t shift to the  right in the backswing and the left in the downswing.

No one good drops it in the slot and swings to right field, but lots of 5-12 caps with a two way miss do.

 

I could go on.  These things have been measured and it’s just not what good and elite players do.

 

Pressure shifts in the feet, no weight shift until after impact.  A hip turn, in contrast to just a shoulder turn, allows for a deeper "on plane" backswing.  But I sort of agree that spinning the shoulders with late arm action causes OTP.

 

One of my favorite videos when things start falling apart.

Edited May 26 by nikos74

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Pressure shifts in the feet, no weight shift until after impact.

 

That's not accurate. The weight will shift forward as well.

 

[johnrobison]

On 5/23/2024 at 12:47 PM, Chunkitgood said:

I’m willing to learn and maybe even change my ideas.  It has happened a time or two.

 

But what does this “70 % of speed from hands” mean, what is the source of this metric, and where is the data?

 

And whose speed?

Where are you seeing "70%" quoted? I've not heard that it's specifically 70%. MacKenzie most recently concluded that the linear force applied at the grip (hands) is the primary contributor: https://www.golfsciencejournal.org/article/12640-how-amateur-golfers-deliver-energy-to-the-driver