70% of speed from hands? Where does this idea come from?

[nikos74]

On 5/26/2024 at 2:44 PM, iacas said:

 

That's not accurate. The weight will shift forward as well.

 

A weight shift in the BS causes a sway.  A WS in the DS causes a slide.  Moving weight causes lateral movement away from the ball. 

 

Moving pressure from one foot to another allows the center of mass to remain centered, while the core rotates to create a spring action and then release it into the ball.  The WS happens in the follow through out of necessity to finish on the front foot.

 

Most people use WS and PS interchangeably, when in fact they are different concepts.

 

 

Edited June 4 by nikos74

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

That's not accurate. The weight will shift forward as well.

 

 

just an different way to illustrate your point on the massive mass attack to target. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nikos74]

@Soloman1  The head is in the same place, both with the BS and DS, but there is a considerable hip slide going on in the DS.  I am not sure why it doesn't affect the low point and cause consistency problems, ie fat and thin shots.  Maybe cause there was side bend and forward shaft lean at address and the DS incorporates all that?

Edited May 26 by nikos74

[iacas]

42 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

@Soloman1  The head is in the same place, both with the BS and DS, but there is a massive hip slide going on in the DS.  I am not sure why it doesn't affect the low point and cause consistency problems, ie fat and thin shots.  Maybe cause there was side bend and forward shaft lean at address and the DS incorporates all that?

If you don’t know, then maybe stop making incorrect statements?

 

There is both a weight shift and a pressure shift — and I assure you I am not using those terms interchangeably — in the downswing of good golfers.

[Nels55]

"70% of speed from hands? Where does this idea come from?"

 

The answer is that the idea comes from @Chunkitgood !

 

 

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

@Soloman1  The head is in the same place, both with the BS and DS, but there is a considerable hip slide going on in the DS.  I am not sure why it doesn't affect the low point and cause consistency problems, ie fat and thin shots.  Maybe cause there was side bend and forward shaft lean at address and the DS incorporates all that?

 

consistency of a swing that consistently gets low point ~4” in front of the ball is a fundamental of iron play.

 

the good instructors here are helping people get that result, along with other things, that start and happen long before that.

 

how you pivot, sequence of movements, how/when you release, etc., based on how elite ball strikers do it is how you learn.

 

or learn to at least improve. if you can’t walk and chew gum, make free throws, hit a dartboard, eat without dropping food in your lap, you probably aren’t going to able to mimic the swing of tiger woods. be realistic and get some incremental improvement.

 

when you think about it, this place has an incredible amount of information. some good, most bad.

 

choose wisely.

 

 

Edited May 26 by Soloman1

[vernon]

Trying to "unthink" fifty plus years of "wrong think" is kinda difficult........

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

That's not accurate. The weight will shift forward as well.

 

Best iron player in the world…perhaps ever….now being told in a very derogatory fashion that his swing sucks because it’s a sway and a slide….

 

Priceless!

 

and yes @nikos74 that comment is for you.🤯

 

 

[nikos74]

56 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Best iron player in the world…perhaps ever….now being told in a very derogatory fashion that his swing sucks because it’s a sway and a slide….

 

Priceless!

 

and yes @nikos74 that comment is for you.🤯

 

 

I didn't say he was swaying, I said he had some hip sliding.  But what difference does it make when you are the best player in the world scoring wise?  It's like saying jack nicklaus "sucks" because of his flying elbow. 

 

Swaying and sliding are known swing faults.  Every person has a different swing, but loosely speaking people fall into the sweep or dig category.  Sweeping is looked down upon and not used by most professionals, hence that awkward looking DS they use.  Matt Kuchar and tom pernice may be some notable exceptions.  I prefer minimum shaft lean and flat shoulders(unless the ball is teed up) at setup.

Edited May 26 by nikos74

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Swaying and sliding are known swing faults.

They are when they are overdone or done improperly. You have said the weight doesn’t shift until after impact and that is just simply false. Virtually every good player shifts both weight and pressure well before impact.

[Shilgy]

38 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

I didn't say he was swaying, I said he had some hip sliding.  But what difference does it make when you are the best player in the world scoring wise?  It's like saying jack nicklaus "sucks" because of his flying elbow. 

 

Swaying and sliding are known swing faults.  Every person has a different swing, but loosely speaking people fall into the sweep or dig category.  Sweeping is looked down upon and not used by most professionals, hence that awkward looking DS they use.  Matt Kuchar and tom pernice may be some notable exceptions.  I prefer minimum shaft lean and flat shoulders(unless the ball is teed up) at setup.

Perhaps you just were not clear then?  You did post that a weight shift in the BS is a sway….or are you claiming Tiger never shifts his weight in the backswing?  Do you think if both feet were on scales they wouldn’t show a shift to the back foot?

 

Note…you changed the parameters of what I said.  I said Tiger was arguably the best iron player…ever.  You changed it to best “scorer” which is not germane to the conversation.  He was/is the best iron player but you don’t seem to like his swing. 
 

Perhaps it’s your concept of “proper” that needs tweaking.🤔

[nikos74]

4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Perhaps you just were not clear then?  You did post that a weight shift in the BS is a sway….or are you claiming Tiger never shifts his weight in the backswing?  Do you think if both feet were on scales they wouldn’t show a shift to the back foot?

 

Note…you changed the parameters of what I said.  I said Tiger was arguably the best iron player…ever.  You changed it to best “scorer” which is not germane to the conversation.  He was/is the best iron player but you don’t seem to like his swing. 
 

Perhaps it’s your concept of “proper” that needs tweaking.🤔

He seems to do a pressure shift in his BS and a weight shift in his downswing, hence the hip slide.  Ben Hogan appears to have had a knee slide in his DS.  Does that mean he "sucks" or that even the best players have/had some imperfections?

 

Speaking of tiger didn't he change his original swing at some point of his career?  I thought he had a flatter swing early on.

[Zeph]

6 hours ago, nikos74 said:

@Soloman1  The head is in the same place, both with the BS and DS, but there is a considerable hip slide going on in the DS.  I am not sure why it doesn't affect the low point and cause consistency problems, ie fat and thin shots.  Maybe cause there was side bend and forward shaft lean at address and the DS incorporates all that?

It does affect the low point. That’s why every good player out there shifts weight forward on the downswing: it moves the lowpoint forward to set them up for a downward strike on the ball.

 

Fat and thin shots happen when there is a lack of forward weight shift. The low point is too far back and the player has to flip the club at the ball and depending on their timing the resulting shot can be fat, thin or sweeping the ball. That’s a swing which will never be consistent.

[Shilgy]

36 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

He seems to do a pressure shift in his BS and a weight shift in his downswing, hence the hip slide.  Ben Hogan appears to have had a knee slide in his DS.  Does that mean he "sucks" or that even the best players have/had some imperfections?

 

Speaking of tiger didn't he change his original swing at some point of his career?  I thought he had a flatter swing early on.

Your attached photo of Hogan shows as much “hip slide” as the Tiger pics.

 

Again, as much as you seem to dislike it perhaps two of the best ever IRON PLAYERS had the right idea?💡 

[ThinkingPlus]

Per most of the videos I have seen and descriptions by top instructors, most pros and good amateurs shift their body away from the target slightly at the start of the backswing. Before the backswing is finished and the club reaches top, the body shifts back towards the target moving the sternum forward of the ball. This shift forward positions the body ideally to deliver the club onto the ball first before engaging the turf.

 

The move back is much less pronounced than a "sway" and the move forward happens before the downswing begins and completes before impact where a "slide" generally never stops.

Edited May 26 by ThinkingPlus
Spelling...

[nikos74]

1 hour ago, Zeph said:

It does affect the low point. That’s why every good player out there shifts weight forward on the downswing: it moves the lowpoint forward to set them up for a downward strike on the ball.

 

Fat and thin shots happen when there is a lack of forward weight shift. The low point is too far back and the player has to flip the club at the ball and depending on their timing the resulting shot can be fat, thin or sweeping the ball. That’s a swing which will never be consistent.

I am not implying people should keep their pressure on their trail foot to start the DS, that is indeed wrong aka off balance.  But instead of doing a weight shift to the lead foot, do a pressure shift to the lead foot, and then once the ball is hit allow a weight shift to the finish position.

 

So yes there is a WS in the DS, but not immediately from the transition.  Otherwise the low point moves prematurely and hitting the ball properly becomes a timing luck issue.  Whatever forward shaft lean existed at address due to the offset of each club should prevent most thin shots from occurring.

 

In my opinion.

Edited May 26 by nikos74

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

I am not implying people should keep their pressure on their trail foot to start the DS, that is indeed wrong aka off balance.  But instead of doing a weight shift to the lead foot, do a pressure shift to the lead foot, and then once the ball is hit allow a weight shift to the finish position.

 

So yes there is a WS in the DS, but not immediately from the transition.  Otherwise the low point moves prematurely and hitting the ball properly becomes a timing luck issue.  Whatever forward shaft lean existed at address due to the offset of each club should prevent most thin shots from occurring.

 

In my opinion.

Then I guess Hogan and Tiger got lucky…all the time.

[nikos74]

14 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Then I guess Hogan and Tiger got lucky…all the time.

With enough practice you can get the timing down reasonably well, even for amateurs with tons of swing flaws, but consistency and accuracy are another issue.  Tour Pros and legends have exceptional athleticism so rather minor swing flaws present no problems to them.

 

In any case I am done arguing the same issue cause we are going off topic and it's getting silly.  The topic is hands create 70 percent of the speed in a golf swing.

[MonteScheinblum]

[GolfTurkey]

For the people that preach a pivot-driven. passive arms and hands swing:

 

I wonder how far they think they could hit the ball if they had some contraption with no levers or hinges attached to their shoulders that gripped the club and they had to swing it entirely with their body. I'm thinking maybe 40 yards, perhaps 50 with a well-executed Happy Gilmore.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, nikos74 said:

He seems to do a pressure shift in his BS and a weight shift in his downswing, hence the hip slide.  Ben Hogan appears to have had a knee slide in his DS.  Does that mean he "sucks" or that even the best players have/had some imperfections?

 

What you keep calling "imperfections" or implying basically that they "got away with" a swing fault is in fact something they SHOULD do and something almost every great player has done for decades if not over a century.

 

The pressure AND mass (weight) shift (move) forward during the downswing. That much is measured fact.

 

4 hours ago, nikos74 said:

But instead of doing a weight shift to the lead foot, do a pressure shift to the lead foot, and then once the ball is hit allow a weight shift to the finish position.

 

No, that's not what good players do.

 

And, if you have a pressure shift to the front foot with the weight behind it… the weight will tend to get pushed farther back.

 

Stand there with your feet apart two feet and your knees slightly bent. If you apply pressure with your left foot… your mass shifts to the right.

 

Please stop guessing or opining.

 

4 hours ago, nikos74 said:

So yes there is a WS in the DS, but not immediately from the transition.

 

It often begins slightly before the transition.

 

4 hours ago, nikos74 said:

In my opinion.

 

We don't need your opinion - we have measured this type of stuff.

 

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

With enough practice you can get the timing down reasonably well, even for amateurs with tons of swing flaws, but consistency and accuracy are another issue.  Tour Pros and legends have exceptional athleticism so rather minor swing flaws present no problems to them.

 

It's not a swing flaw.

[moerkb]

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

What you keep calling "imperfections" or implying basically that they "got away with" a swing fault is in fact something they SHOULD do and something almost every great player has done for decades if not over a century.

 

The pressure AND mass (weight) shift (move) forward during the downswing. That much is measured fact.

 

 

No, that's not what good players do.

 

And, if you have a pressure shift to the front foot with the weight behind it… the weight will tend to get pushed farther back.

 

Stand there with your feet apart two feet and your knees slightly bent. If you apply pressure with your left foot… your mass shifts to the right.

 

Please stop guessing or opining.

 

 

It often begins slightly before the transition.

 

 

We don't need your opinion - we have measured this type of stuff.

 

 

It's not a swing flaw.

When I tell golfers the reason they are misunderstanding it is they think there are two shifts, when if they think of it as being 4, it all makes sense.  You can’t actively make 4 obviously…….you shouldn’t be really making any on purpose, but when you do it wrong….you have to do it on purpose.  When you get the first two right, the last two tend to work out.

 

Right from p1 to p2/3. The initial shift off the ball from the force the takeaway creates

Left from 3 to 5/6.  Recentering left as you rotate to the top

Right from 5/6 to 7/8.  The vertical force pushing up and back

Left from 7/8 to finish.  The momentum pulling you left.

 

Not close to a perfect description, but when I demonstrate it it makes sense.

 

The issue for most golfers, as in this case, is they think only 1 and 4 exist and that’s a problem.

[TheDeanAbides]

Shift, turn, shift, turn. What is actually measured, which should end the argument, but, well, the internet. 

 

 

 

Also, what is measured re hand speed.

 

 

[notsohard]

On 5/26/2024 at 6:52 AM, Jugs said:

 

Clubhead speed comes through the hands via the feet activating bigger muscles along the back, thighs, calves, etc.    The hands will slow down for those larger muscles.   The coordination between the two is important so the hands do not outrun the pivot's power. 

 

[Rbsiedsc]

See Monte’s broom force counter top drill. That explains, like the AMG guys, the importance of the hands and where they need to be and getting them started fast to help the whole sequence 

[Rbsiedsc]

2 hours ago, Rbsiedsc said:

See Monte’s broom force counter top drill. That explains, like the AMG guys, the importance of the hands and where they need to be and getting them started fast to help the whole sequence 

Speaking of which. Did this drill today and measured my max hand speed distance with the Dewiz. In moved it from 2.5ish to closer to 20 inches on most clubs. Now it needs a lot more ingraining but it’s a good start. My 7i went from 168 carry to 184 focusing on max hand speed distance.

 

6i also had an improvement. This first one smash may also be do en as I hit it a little toey. 

 

Edited May 27 by Rbsiedsc
Pics and video

[Llortamaisey]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:44 PM, iacas said:

 

Launch monitors didn't "prove" the ball flight laws - they used the ball flight laws to build their products.

 

High speed video could be said to have "proven" the ball flight laws. Measurements proved it. Launch monitors use those measurements to build algorithms to calculate some things.

I agree. Tomato tomato.

 

Launch monitors measure, they don’t have algos, that’s the software that interprets the data, but I’m sure you already knew that and are just confusing the two. 

Edited May 27 by Llortamaisey

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Llortamaisey said:

I agree. Tomato tomato.

 

Launch monitors measure, they don’t have algos, that’s the software that interprets the data, but I’m sure you already knew that and are just confusing the two. 

You’re either trying to play semantics to play gotcha and say the software and the monitor are two different things rather than a unit that combines the two. Or you don’t know that there are algorithms that are taking all the data that is captured.

 

[Soloman1]

bravo. this may be the silliest, most wrong-headed reply in the entire history of golfwrx.

 

ever.

 

i had to capture it for posterity.