Determining When Grass Clippings are "Piled for Removal"

[david.c.w]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I doubt the maintenance staff around here would understand the question's relevance or the answer to the question. In all likelihood the answer is "only if the boss tells me to". The boss's answer to the player will start with "do you have any idea how many tasks are currently on our plate" followed by grumbling and we'll see what can be done. Subsequently, nothing will be done.

 

And who really has the phone number to the maintenance department?  It is NEVER on the website, except in Finland of course.  They also do not have staff hanging around to answer phones.  No receptionist at the front desk.

[Augster]

There is no need to call the maintenance staff (as if that’s possible).  In the definition of GUR, clippings piled for removal are GUR. Take a drop and move on. 

[jholz]

If in doubt, just swing the club folks. Playing it as it lies always works. 

 

If you are bent out of shape by a ball ending up in a pile of grass clippings to the extent that you are calling the grounds crew (who are, of course, currently smoking weed at the back of the cart barn), then I think you are better off just sticking to the range.

 

The grounds crew could GAF. Your lie is the least of their worries. 

Edited Wednesday at 08:22 PM by jholz

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

There is no need to call the maintenance staff (as if that’s possible).  In the definition of GUR, clippings piled for removal are GUR. Take a drop and move on. 

The question was “is removal planned”.  Small pile of clipping on the fringe would likely not have a planned removal.  Most course it would just be a “whoops, oh well the mower will catch it next time”.  Based on that most replies are saying that would NOT qualify as piled for removal so NOT GUR.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

What else would they do ?

 

But your statement suggests they just hand in the scorecard the way it is - isn't that a DQ ? 

 

It's not a tournament. They're just playing golf, and wondered what to do. So, at the most, it may affect the score they post to GHIN.

 

5 hours ago, rogolf said:

There is no way that, in the situation I described, the clippings were "piled" or intended to "be removed".

Imo, the definition is clear - "natural materials that are piled for later removal" means that they are purposely piled AND will be removed.  It's not "piled" or "later removal". 

 

I'm not sure why you quoted me to reply with that. I know it's not "or." Which is why I started this whole topic, even though nobody's really answered the question: how is the player to know if they're piled for later removal? What should they do given the little info they have?

 

2 hours ago, Augster said:

In the definition of GUR, clippings piled for removal are GUR. Take a drop and move on. 

 

The whole question of the topic is whether he knows if they're piled or whether they're piled and intended for removal. The latter is GUR, the former is not.

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

 

As others have said, that's definitely not accurate. At some courses, they pile up grass clippings in one place. Big several foot tall mounds, often in the woods somewhere. That's not GUR as that's the grass clippings' final resting place.

 

 

It doesn't matter where they are, or whether they're "piled" or not. It's about whether they're intended to be removed.

 

 

Yes, I'm inclined (though the time of day would matter to me) to say that this was just a lazy fringe cutter not discarding the clippings far enough away from the green. Or maybe he had to take a clippings basket off for something and didn't notice just how much he'd left there.

 

The time of day matters, IMO, because if it's noon… I'd be heavily inclined to say they weren't intended to be removed. Most courses mow greens and fringes early (fairways too if they can), and so they'd already have removed them if they intended to do so.

 

There's always the chance that they intended to remove them but forgot, too.

 

All told, and assuming (the player would obviously know this info) the player wasn't encountering this at 7:15am or something… I'd lean toward "bad luck, you got a lazy fringe cutter, play it as it lie and mention it in the shop after." Of course, that's if the player wanted to be a bit lazy, as my true advice if the person really cared about his score that day would be to play two balls and take photos and ask in the shop later, or email or call the USGA about it…

 

(Or, if they score the same with both balls, just post the score and move on.)

 

Whatever the answer would or should be (it depends on a few things of course), this situation is pretty rare. Especially on the fringe.

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

It's not a tournament. They're just playing golf, and wondered what to do. So, at the most, it may affect the score they post to GHIN.

 

 

The whole question of the topic is whether he knows if they're piled or whether they're piled and intended for removal. The latter is GUR, the former is not.

 

 

You posted the question in a Rules of Golf Forum, tell us they should just post the score (playing 2 balls, same score with both balls and move on) and now because I follow up with a perfectly logical question it's "They're just playing golf" ??? 

 

Why not just say "Take relief" then ? 

 

So, if that's the case, approx 100% (best guess of course) of anybody I've ever played with, would take free relief from "a few feet square and 2 inches deep" area of grass cuttings.

 

As for the grass-cutting piles OFF the fairway ? I have seen this occasionally, but the same (approx) 100% of anybody I've ever played with would take free relief from same.

 

How on earth would any player know whether or not they were piled for removal or not ? Sheesh. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

You posted the question in a Rules of Golf Forum, tell us they should just post the score (playing 2 balls, same score with both balls and move on) and now because I follow up with a perfectly logical question it's "They're just playing golf" ??? 

 

No, not quite, and I'm not interested in playing the semantics games and never-ending quoting.

 

I asked the overall question about how one might determine whether these are piled for removal or not. I also suggested that if he scored the same with both balls, he could (since it's a casual round just posting to GHIN or whatever) just post the score; the answer at that point is irrelevant to what he's trying to do. There's no Committee to which to report that he played two balls, etc.

 

Players playing casual rounds of golf still want to play under the Rules of Golf, so yes, I posted it in the Rules of Golf forum.

 

That's it.

 

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Why not just say "Take relief" then ? 

 

Because the original question remains unanswered.

 

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So, if that's the case, approx 100% (best guess of course) of anybody I've ever played with, would take free relief from "a few feet square and 2 inches deep" area of grass cuttings.

 

FWIW the player in the OP did not. He played it.

 

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

As for the grass-cutting piles OFF the fairway ? I have seen this occasionally, but the same (approx) 100% of anybody I've ever played with would take free relief from same.

 

That doesn't answer the question. A lot of golfers roll the ball everywhere, or roll it out of divot holes, or whatever… doesn't make that the Rules of Golf.

 

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

How on earth would any player know whether or not they were piled for removal or not ? Sheesh. 

 

That's the question, since whether they're GUR or just loose impediments relies on that.

 

Edited Thursday at 12:52 AM by iacas

[Schulzmc]

OK - I’ll be the one to say it. If the ROG do not allow relief from a pile of grass clippings left on the apron of a green - whether they were left there intentionally or not, whether removal is planned or just will happen the next time the maintenance staff notices it, then the rules need to be changed. That’s just common sense.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

OK - I’ll be the one to say it. If the ROG do not allow relief from a pile of grass clippings left on the apron of a green - whether they were left there intentionally or not, whether removal is planned or just will happen the next time the maintenance staff notices it, then the rules need to be changed. That’s just common sense.

 

Nah, because you can't draw that line. What if your ball lands on a small pile of five leaves? Two leaves? One leaf? They're all just loose impediments. How big is a "pile" of grass clippings? What if it's a little clump?

 

And, please respect the actual topic: how a golfer is to know or decide whether the pile is intended for removal.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

OK - I’ll be the one to say it. If the ROG do not allow relief from a pile of grass clippings left on the apron of a green - whether they were left there intentionally or not, whether removal is planned or just will happen the next time the maintenance staff notices it, then the rules need to be changed. That’s just common sense.

But it's not what the Rules say.  Imo, "piled" means intentionally done, and "later removal" means someone coming along and removing said piled material.

You can do what you want in your own group, but that would be my thinking if I were asked for a ruling in such a situation.

They are loose impediments and the player can get relief by moving them.

Edited Thursday at 02:47 AM by rogolf

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No, not quite, and I'm not interested in playing the semantics games and never-ending quoting.

 

I asked the overall question about how one might determine whether these are piled for removal or not. I also suggested that if he scored the same with both balls, he could (since it's a casual round just posting to GHIN or whatever) just post the score; the answer at that point is irrelevant to what he's trying to do. There's no Committee to which to report that he played two balls, etc.

 

Players playing casual rounds of golf still want to play under the Rules of Golf, so yes, I posted it in the Rules of Golf forum.

 

That's it.

 

 

Because the original question remains unanswered.

 

 

FWIW the player in the OP did not. He played it.

 

 

That doesn't answer the question. A lot of golfers roll the ball everywhere, or roll it out of divot holes, or whatever… doesn't make that the Rules of Golf.

 

 

That's the question, since whether they're GUR or just loose impediments relies on that.

 

 

All evidence to the contrary. 

 

But I'm not nearly so bored tonight as you seem to be so I'll be the one to stop, even though I'd love to go back and forth with your silliness and circular reasoning.

 

You're welcome. 

[antip]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:19 AM, iacas said:

A guy hit his ball into the fringe just short and left of a green, into what he described as "a pile of grass clippings, from mowing the fringe, a few feet square and 2 inches deep."

 

He didn't share the time of day, a photo, or anything else. I'm not even sure what hole it was on, its proximity to the maintenance shed, or the common maintenance practices at the course.

 

So the question is simply: how does one determine whether a "pile" of grass clippings is intended for removal, thus meeting the definition of GUR? Let's assume it's just a golfer playing a round of golf, as this specific situation is not likely to occur (others could, like is this stack of cut-down tree limbs here in the woods piled for removal or is this its final resting place?) in tournament play.

 

And yes, the player could likely take a photo, play two balls, and get a ruling later on, but even if they did that, how might you rule given only the above info? How is a player to determine whether the pile was "intended for removal" later on?

The specific example is the bolded words "a pile of grass clippings, from mowing the fringe, a few feet square and 2 inches deep."   For me, if this is right next to the green and not some distance away (the latter requiring more assessment) it is clear cut (sorry!) and I am calling it GUR.

But I don't think there is any simple answer to the more general question posed - it is an assessment process which in marginal cases may get quite subjective - but is one where the ultimate responsibility sits with the Committee.

 

Here's an official USGA answer in a slightly different context:

 

"Q. A maintenance crew left a pile of soil to be removed later after repair of an irrigation line. They accidentally spilled a shovel full nearby and your ball comes to rest next to it impacting your CATS. Is this a GUR, loose impediment, unplayable or play it as lies?

USGA RESPONSE: There's a difference between whether something is ground under repair automatically and a situation where a player ought to be granted relief if relief is sought. Exactly which this falls under is really up to the Committee to determine based on whether or not this excess material was piled for removal or not.

Sometimes maintenance spills material and decide they're not going to pick it up. Sometimes it was an accident and is meant to be removed. What is for sure is that loose dirt/soil that has been spilled is not a loose impediment and if a player finds himself in this situation in stroke play without a referee available, they should play a second ball and let the Committee decide."

 

Personally, I think the definition of GUR, and the principles that sit behind it, make clear that maintenance staff screw ups are generally going to be something the player is protected from and I don't believe the definition must be read narrowly to exclude relief. For example (picking up some situations touched on above): I don't believe relief is limited to "intentional" piling and I also think staff subsequently removing the pile by blower (a common practice in some places) qualifies as intent to remove. 

[Augster]

Every single time I’ve ever seen clippings “piled” on the fringe, they weren’t there the next day. 
 

If grass clippings are piled on the fringe, they are piled for removal. Otherwise we’d have stacks of grass clippings on the fringe. And that just isn’t the case. 

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

 

And, please respect the actual topic: how a golfer is to know or decide whether the pile is intended for removal.

Sometimes easily, sometimes with difficulty.i But  I'm not sure why you are persisting with this as your question was answered very early on:

 

I would think it entirely reasonable to assume clippings left on the fringe of a green were going to be uplifted - and promptly as they should never have been dumped there in the first instance.

 

The most significant factor there is location.  Grass cuttings just aren't dumped on the fringe of a green to be left to rot. They shouldn't be dumped there at all, not for a moment, but if for some reason there is a heap of them, can you possibly imagine that they are just going to be left there?   

Edited Thursday at 05:33 AM by Colin L

[Port and Starboard]

I always considered piled clippings as GUR under rule 16.

 

Am I wrong?

 

 

[Colin L]

47 minutes ago, Port and Starboard said:

I always considered piled clippings as GUR under rule 16.

 

Am I wrong?

 

 

You are wrong to think always.   As in the OP's question, location can, for instance, be telling.  A heap of soggy, rotting  grass clippings in the undergrowth amongst trees is by its location alone clearly not waiting removal.  In addition, its advanced stage of decomposition is indicative.  Clearly not GUR.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 06:35 AM by Colin L

[iacas]

7 hours ago, antip said:

The specific example is the bolded words "a pile of grass clippings, from mowing the fringe, a few feet square and 2 inches deep."   For me, if this is right next to the green and not some distance away (the latter requiring more assessment) it is clear cut (sorry!) and I am calling it GUR.

 

If it was 2pm and the course mowed at 7am, would that change your mind?

 

7 hours ago, antip said:

But I don't think there is any simple answer to the more general question posed - it is an assessment process which in marginal cases may get quite subjective - but is one where the ultimate responsibility sits with the Committee.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure there's a very good answer here at all. Too many variables and unknowns. But I thought it was interesting to see what kinds of things we consider…

• size of the "pile"
• location
• time of day
• common maintenance practices (if known)

 

7 hours ago, antip said:

USGA RESPONSE: There's a difference between whether something is ground under repair automatically and a situation where a player ought to be granted relief if relief is sought. Exactly which this falls under is really up to the Committee to determine based on whether or not this excess material was piled for removal or not.

Sometimes maintenance spills material and decide they're not going to pick it up. Sometimes it was an accident and is meant to be removed. What is for sure is that loose dirt/soil that has been spilled is not a loose impediment and if a player finds himself in this situation in stroke play without a referee available, they should play a second ball and let the Committee decide."

 

Personally, I think the definition of GUR, and the principles that sit behind it, make clear that maintenance staff screw ups are generally going to be something the player is protected from and I don't believe the definition must be read narrowly to exclude relief. For example (picking up some situations touched on above): I don't believe relief is limited to "intentional" piling and I also think staff subsequently removing the pile by blower (a common practice in some places) qualifies as intent to remove. 

 

I'm on board with removal by blower as counting, too.

 

And one of the issues is that there's no Committee in this scenario — it's just a guy playing a round of golf on a course that may or may not even have a head pro working at the time, the superintendent may be at home, and he's just trying to figure out what to do.

 

Now, I realize… he could just take relief, or play it (as he did), and nobody would really care, but it's still (IMO, or I wouldn't have posted it) an interesting question: absent a Committee, and in the moment, where do we draw the line in trying to figure out what is "piled for removal"?

 

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

Sometimes easily, sometimes with difficulty.i But  I'm not sure why you are persisting with this as your question was answered very early on:

 

I would think it entirely reasonable to assume clippings left on the fringe of a green were going to be uplifted - and promptly as they should never have been dumped there in the first instance.

 

That's an answer, but I don't know that it's the answer. I don't know that there is a single answer. I think it depends on some things. Like, as I've said, the time of day. If it's 2pm and the maintenance staff is done for the day, is it intended to be removed, or do they know the rain later might wash it away? Would that be sufficient to meet "intended for removal" if they think "oh the rain that's forecast will wash it away"? What if this pile of clippings was 40 yards back in the fairway? What if it's beside a forward tee box where the maintenance worker might assume nobody would hit a ball? I think we know if it's in the woods behind a green and that's where they dump clippings, it's not piled for removal.

 

The question is: how do we know when something is "piled for removal"? If there's a big dirt mound in front of a green around a sprinkler head that they're replacing/digging up/whatever, then I think 100 out of 100 people would vote "piled for removal." If there's a tree cut down and the logs are stacked up to the right of the 14th fairway, I think the same 100 would vote "piled for removal."

 

So, I don't think it was answered. Some people might feel it's been answered for this specific instance, but how do you determine whether something is "piled for removal"?

 

What if you're officiating a match play event, and a player calls you over to ask such a question. How do you, in that moment, rule? What factors do you weigh?

 

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

The most significant factor there is location.  Grass cuttings just aren't dumped on the fringe of a green to be left to rot. They shouldn't be dumped there at all, not for a moment, but if for some reason there is a heap of them, can you possibly imagine that they are just going to be left there?   

 

Generally, I'd agree. But again, what if it's 2pm? Does removal the next day when maintenance comes back to the course count?

 

I lean certain ways on some of these types of questions, but I don't know for sure, and I'm not asking so that I can share my answer.

[mshills]

On 7/3/2024 at 4:36 AM, Colin L said:

I would think it entirely reasonable to assume clippings left on the fringe of a green were going to be uplifted - and promptly as they should never have been dumped there in the first instance.

Agree. If the pile is on the fringe, I’d argue it has to be moved soon, or never should have been there. A pile two feet high two yards into the woods I’d argue the opposite, that is where they are dumped, will not be moved, no relief. 

[Schulzmc]

Scenario #1: Worker has a problem with the green mower. Stops on the fringe and empties the clippings making a two foot square two inches deep pile of clippings. Fixes the mower, finishes the green, and intends to come right back and get that pile of clippings.

 

Scenario #2: Worker accidentally makes an identical pile as scenario one, sees it as he leaves the green and thinks “someone will get that tomorrow” and moves on.

 

It sounds like some of you are saying a ball that finds that pile would be entitled to relief in the first case and not the second, correct?

 

If that is the case, then I stand by my assertion that something needs to be reworded in the GUR rule. I don’t see how it is relevant to the golfer which of the above scenarios is the case. You either should always get relief in that setting or never.

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

If it was 2pm and the course mowed at 7am, would that change your mind?

 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure there's a very good answer here at all. Too many variables and unknowns. But I thought it was interesting to see what kinds of things we consider…

• size of the "pile"
• location
• time of day
• common maintenance practices (if known)

 

 

I'm on board with removal by blower as counting, too.

 

And one of the issues is that there's no Committee in this scenario — it's just a guy playing a round of golf on a course that may or may not even have a head pro working at the time, the superintendent may be at home, and he's just trying to figure out what to do.

 

Now, I realize… he could just take relief, or play it (as he did), and nobody would really care, but it's still (IMO, or I wouldn't have posted it) an interesting question: absent a Committee, and in the moment, where do we draw the line in trying to figure out what is "piled for removal"?

 

 

That's an answer, but I don't know that it's the answer. I don't know that there is a single answer. I think it depends on some things. Like, as I've said, the time of day. If it's 2pm and the maintenance staff is done for the day, is it intended to be removed, or do they know the rain later might wash it away? Would that be sufficient to meet "intended for removal" if they think "oh the rain that's forecast will wash it away"? What if this pile of clippings was 40 yards back in the fairway? What if it's beside a forward tee box where the maintenance worker might assume nobody would hit a ball? I think we know if it's in the woods behind a green and that's where they dump clippings, it's not piled for removal.

 

The question is: how do we know when something is "piled for removal"? If there's a big dirt mound in front of a green around a sprinkler head that they're replacing/digging up/whatever, then I think 100 out of 100 people would vote "piled for removal." If there's a tree cut down and the logs are stacked up to the right of the 14th fairway, I think the same 100 would vote "piled for removal."

 

So, I don't think it was answered. Some people might feel it's been answered for this specific instance, but how do you determine whether something is "piled for removal"?

 

What if you're officiating a match play event, and a player calls you over to ask such a question. How do you, in that moment, rule? What factors do you weigh?

 

 

Generally, I'd agree. But again, what if it's 2pm? Does removal the next day when maintenance comes back to the course count?

 

I lean certain ways on some of these types of questions, but I don't know for sure, and I'm not asking so that I can share my answer.

I thought you weren't interested in "never-ending quoting".  😃

[Newby]

22 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

 

 

It sounds like some of you are saying a ball that finds that pile would be entitled to relief in the first case and not the second, correct?

 

Why? From the location of the pile it can reasonably assumed that it will be removed. It doesn't have to be immediately.

[Schulzmc]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

Why? From the location of the pile it can reasonably assumed that it will be removed. It doesn't have to be immediately.

I agree. But others in this thread seemed to be saying the opposite.

[iacas]

53 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Scenario #1: Worker has a problem with the green mower. Stops on the fringe and empties the clippings making a two foot square two inches deep pile of clippings. Fixes the mower, finishes the green, and intends to come right back and get that pile of clippings.

 

Scenario #2: Worker accidentally makes an identical pile as scenario one, sees it as he leaves the green and thinks “someone will get that tomorrow” and moves on.

 

It sounds like some of you are saying a ball that finds that pile would be entitled to relief in the first case and not the second, correct?

 

Scenario #3: the worker dumps clippings there and thinks nothing of it. What then?

 

Scenario #4: the worker dumps the clippings and says "ahh, the wind will blow those away" but it doesn't. What then?

 

53 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

If that is the case, then I stand by my assertion that something needs to be reworded in the GUR rule. I don’t see how it is relevant to the golfer which of the above scenarios is the case. You either should always get relief in that setting or never.

 

Again, how big of a "pile" does it need to be to clearly get relief?

 

Like it or not, there are a lot of areas in the Rules of Golf that are still somewhat subjective. This is one of them. If your ball came to rest on a "pile" of leaves or other loose impediments (as grass clippings are), when would the player get relief for that? If it's on the fringe? What about 1 foot from the fringe in the light rough? 5 yards back in the fairway just short of the green? Etc.

 

I don't think you're considering the ramifications or how difficult it would be to do as you assert "needs" done.

 

31 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I agree. But others in this thread seemed to be saying the opposite.

 

I don't think anyone has definitively said anything.

 

The player in the OP played it as it lay, so he felt he didn't deserve relief. The topic asks what types of things we'd consider in the moment to determine whether it's GUR. Consider, as I said before, if it's a match play situation and you're called over for a ruling. You have to rule, because the state of the match is important, and you can't stall and call people for 30 minutes either. You've gotta decide based on…

• location
• size
• time of day
• common practices if you know them
• etc.

So like I said…

 

On 7/2/2024 at 1:19 PM, iacas said:

How is a player to determine whether the pile was "intended for removal" later on?

 

I think that, at the end of the day, they're gonna make their best and most reasonable guess, but what factors are they considering? The above is my list (maybe not my complete list).

 

Like I've said a few times, if it's 2pm and the maintenance staff is gone for the day, I'm not sure I'd consider it "intended for removal." But then, that opens the door to "what if they intended to remove it but forgot?"

 

I don't think there's any kind of definitive answer here. I think it's subjective, and I think that the factors I listed and others I haven't thought of yet might be considered.

 

This topic seeks to get that list. Not to answer the specific case in the OP.

[Archimedes65]

Just play it where it lies and move on.  A small pile of grass clippings left on the course is almost certainly NOT intended to be removed, nor is it GUR.  It’s similar to your ball finding a sand filled divot in the fairway.  Bad luck for sure, but no relief is due.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Scenario #3: the worker dumps clippings there and thinks nothing of it. What then?

 

Scenario #4: the worker dumps the clippings and says "ahh, the wind will blow those away" but it doesn't. What then?

 

 

Again, how big of a "pile" does it need to be to clearly get relief?

 

Like it or not, there are a lot of areas in the Rules of Golf that are still somewhat subjective. This is one of them. If your ball came to rest on a "pile" of leaves or other loose impediments (as grass clippings are), when would the player get relief for that? If it's on the fringe? What about 1 foot from the fringe in the light rough? 5 yards back in the fairway just short of the green? Etc.

 

I don't think you're considering the ramifications or how difficult it would be to do as you assert "needs" done.

 

 

I don't think anyone has definitively said anything.

 

The player in the OP played it as it lay, so he felt he didn't deserve relief. The topic asks what types of things we'd consider in the moment to determine whether it's GUR. Consider, as I said before, if it's a match play situation and you're called over for a ruling. You have to rule, because the state of the match is important, and you can't stall and call people for 30 minutes either. You've gotta decide based on…

• location
• size
• time of day
• common practices if you know them
• etc.

So like I said…

 

 

I think that, at the end of the day, they're gonna make their best and most reasonable guess, but what factors are they considering? The above is my list (maybe not my complete list).

 

Like I've said a few times, if it's 2pm and the maintenance staff is gone for the day, I'm not sure I'd consider it "intended for removal." But then, that opens the door to "what if they intended to remove it but forgot?"

 

I don't think there's any kind of definitive answer here. I think it's subjective, and I think that the factors I listed and others I haven't thought of yet might be considered.

 

This topic seeks to get that list. Not to answer the specific case in the OP.

You’ve mentioned time of day a few times…..why?  The rule does not appear to say “immediate” removal is required.  Just that it is intended for removal.  If the green mower cuts on Tuesday….leaves a small pile….and knows the blower will be out Wednesday does that not suffice?  You’ve mentioned the removal by blower should be allowed but need to realize not all courses have the manpower to do everything immediately.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

Just play it where it lies and move on.  A small pile of grass clippings left on the course is almost certainly NOT intended to be removed, nor is it GUR.  It’s similar to your ball finding a sand filled divot in the fairway.  Bad luck for sure, but no relief is due.

 

That is what the golfer in the OP did. He wasn't happy about it, but… 

 

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and you can get pretty far down some weird paths: what if it's intended for removal, but people forget to remove it? What if they intend for the wind or rain to remove it — is that sufficient? What if it's 3pm and the maintenance staff have all gone home for the day — if they're going to remove this the next time they mow the green in a day or two, does that count?

 

Ultimately, where I land, is that I think you have to use your reasonable judgement, as we see in other places in the rules, to suss out what you think is the course of action. And everyone will have a slightly different combo of factors.

 

Again, my list from above included the size of the pile (a small clump of grass clippings that may have fallen off a tire or something is almost certainly not GUR), the time of the day/age of the pile, the location on the course (immediately next to the green is more likely to be intended to be removed than 20 yards into the woods where they always dump clippings), and so on.

 

I don't know how I'd have ruled in the OP because we've got no photos, no time of day, not much of anything. I'd have probably just said "ahhh, that sucks" and taken it as a challenge to see what kind of shot I could hit from there, as the golfer in the OP did. If I were called into a match and they needed a ruling, and I couldn't quickly reach someone on the maintenance staff or whatnot… I'd have to weigh the factors above and any others (similar things on other holes, etc.) that seemed to give weight to ruling one way or the other.

 

I don't know. I don't suspect there's a great answer, for this specific instance or for other instances people might picture in their minds. And that's part of the problem: I might picture even the original thing as being different than it was.

 

Thanks to those who tried to answer the question. Again, I don't think there is one definitive answer; like other things in the Rules of Golf, we can't write definitive rules all the time. Some things are going to be subjective.

 

Just now, Shilgy said:

You’ve mentioned time of day a few times…..why?  The rule does not appear to say “immediate” removal is required.  Just that it is intended for removal.  If the green mower cuts on Tuesday….leaves a small pile….and knows the blower will be out Wednesday does that not suffice?  You’ve mentioned the removal by blower should be allowed but need to realize not all courses have the manpower to do everything immediately.

 

Because I think it's a factor in trying to determine if it's "intended for removal." If the maintenance staff is gone for the day, it lends weight to the idea that they didn't intend to remove it. If they just finished mowing and you're waiting on them before you hit your approach shot, it's more likely they intend to remove it but just haven't had the chance to yet.

 

Time is one of the factors that I think you'd have to weigh.

[ThinkingPlus]

2 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

Just play it where it lies and move on.  A small pile of grass clippings left on the course is almost certainly NOT intended to be removed, nor is it GUR.  It’s similar to your ball finding a sand filled divot in the fairway.  Bad luck for sure, but no relief is due.

Same feeling here. Take one for the team, build some karma with the golfing gods, and move on. Folks who try to nuance the RoG too much will be punished 10x later.

[goaliedad30]

21 hours ago, jholz said:

the grounds crew (who are, of course, currently smoking weed at the back of the cart barn)

 

 

What if the pile was explicitly made to cover up the crew's weed stash?  🙂

[mshills]

1 hour ago, goaliedad30 said:

What if the pile was explicitly made to cover up the crew's weed stash?  🙂

Then I may not finish the round! 😁

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

That is what the golfer in the OP did. He wasn't happy about it, but… 

 

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and you can get pretty far down some weird paths: what if it's intended for removal, but people forget to remove it? What if they intend for the wind or rain to remove it — is that sufficient? What if it's 3pm and the maintenance staff have all gone home for the day — if they're going to remove this the next time they mow the green in a day or two, does that count?

 

Ultimately, where I land, is that I think you have to use your reasonable judgement, as we see in other places in the rules, to suss out what you think is the course of action. And everyone will have a slightly different combo of factors.

 

Again, my list from above included the size of the pile (a small clump of grass clippings that may have fallen off a tire or something is almost certainly not GUR), the time of the day/age of the pile, the location on the course (immediately next to the green is more likely to be intended to be removed than 20 yards into the woods where they always dump clippings), and so on.

 

I don't know how I'd have ruled in the OP because we've got no photos, no time of day, not much of anything. I'd have probably just said "ahhh, that sucks" and taken it as a challenge to see what kind of shot I could hit from there, as the golfer in the OP did. If I were called into a match and they needed a ruling, and I couldn't quickly reach someone on the maintenance staff or whatnot… I'd have to weigh the factors above and any others (similar things on other holes, etc.) that seemed to give weight to ruling one way or the other.

 

I don't know. I don't suspect there's a great answer, for this specific instance or for other instances people might picture in their minds. And that's part of the problem: I might picture even the original thing as being different than it was.

 

Thanks to those who tried to answer the question. Again, I don't think there is one definitive answer; like other things in the Rules of Golf, we can't write definitive rules all the time. Some things are going to be subjective.

 

 

Because I think it's a factor in trying to determine if it's "intended for removal." If the maintenance staff is gone for the day, it lends weight to the idea that they didn't intend to remove it. If they just finished mowing and you're waiting on them before you hit your approach shot, it's more likely they intend to remove it but just haven't had the chance to yet.

 

Time is one of the factors that I think you'd have to weigh.

Depending on the size of the pile  I’d be more in agreement with your earlier assertion that it’s like real estate….location location location.

 

On the fringe? Piled for removal.

Off in the woods? Play it as it lies.